Seven Dreamers Golf Shafts - Now Available at TSG!

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Physics absolutely proves heavier equals more distance...as long as swing speed remains constant. If you consider COR, ball mass, and launch conditions as constants, Head mass and head speed are the only contributing factors that influence ball speed (acceleration). Increasing either one of those two variables equals more distance.

Imho, brands are going lighter because technology is allowing them to do so. Lighter can, for many, equal higher swing speed so you have brands able to sell the theory of more distance. This could be considered a gimmick as much as any other since lighter doesn't magically help you hit the sweet spot even if you are able to swing faster.

And don't be surprised when companies start going back to added mass behind the ball for more distance after they wear out the lighter is better campaign.

Swing speed, COR, ball mass, launch conditions, weight, etc.. etc.. are never a constant in golf so that's where I'm missing your point.

You swing a lighter club faster than you do the heavier club, almost everyone does.

Let's say a brand went all in with the heavy philosophy, they would produce heavy clubs that people can't swing very fast thus creating shorter distances.

Technology also allows for clubs to get heavier but I don't see anyone pulling that one out and I doubt increasing overall weight will be the next "thing".

Weight has always been a problem for golf club design, there are too many examples of this from the move to Titanium, carbon shafts, thinner walls, CFRP crowns, to mizunos boron carbon steel all in the name of reducing weight.

I guess I don't understand what your saying, The lighter thing has been going on for decades, it's not fluff and it's probably one of the single biggest advancements in golf in the last 50+ years.

This heavier is longer stuff is great but doesn't resonate with me because everything in golf is a variable.

[chiromikey]

Nothing is constant when you add the human element so a debate involving those variables becomes muddy very quickly. However, physics does remain constant and that's the area I'm debating. If a player swings the heaviest head that they can consistently find the sweet spot with AND they don't give up any swing speed over the lighter head, they WILL hit the ball farther.

Plug the numbers into the Sevendreamers equation for initial ball velocity that you posted in the other thread and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Yes I get what your saying, so if it were indoors on a swing robot you think the heavier overall weight will create more distance or are you just talking about the weight behind the impact zone?

[RIduffer]

Can we separate the discussion a tad... Heaviest head you can swing is a different argument than the lightest shaft.

In my humble opinion as neither a scientist, nor consistent golfer, nor moderately intelligent person the amount of mass from the shaft tip contributing to the overall mass of thing making contact with the ball is negligible. Put a rock on a string, swing it around like a lasso and hit a ball flush, I would argue the same rock attached to a heavier string hitting a ball flush at the same velocity from earlier will yield very comparable distance. Changing the weight of the rock by the same amount of weight change of the string, on the other hand, will have a larger impact on overall distance. I believe that to be true because the weight of the string is distributed across the entire length whereas the weight of the rock is concentrated in the impact area.

Taking the lightest club(head and shaft combined) won't really work, while you might be able to swing it faster, I don't think the ratios work out in that my SS will cap out before I can offset the lightness of the head. Also with the human element, my timing is gonna be thrown to hell. Similarly, taking the heaviest club, eventually I won't be able to generate any rotational speed...

All that said, I think you are both right... The lightest shaft paired with the heaviest head you can swing will probably yield the best distance...

[chiromikey]

I think we have to isolate it to head weight rather than overall weight because it's mostly just head weight that transfers momentum during the collision with the ball. And yes, I think a robot test would prove this. This is why I think we may see future marketing towards heavier heads. As shaft technology continues to advance, ultra light shafts will allow companies to re-position that unused weight back in the head, therefor offering players the theory that they can maintain their current swing speed while also having more mass behind the ball.

I never expected to be arguing the merits of a heavy head when I started my experiments but I'm amazed at how much swing speed was unaffected (in my swing) as I kept adding more and more weight to my driver.

[Vegaman]

So as light a shaft as possible together with a head as heavy as possible? I find it very unlikely btw that anybody except a precious few could maintain SS with a really heavy club? Makes it a bit of a moot point?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

If few of the same variables apply this is nothing more than a very big tangent were on.

We are discussing the merit of the SD equation which makes perfect sense in golf.

The force x mass thing does not apply to golf very well so now I'm missing the point of having this discussion.

[Eca]

Not sure if true but I read somewhere that most that ventured to lighter shafts (same head), especially with irons shafts, indeed gained some yards not necessarily dispersion initially then the body just adjusted after a while & then back to same old distances..

[kaaayelll]

If few of the same variables apply this is nothing more than a very big tangent were on.

We are discussing the merit of the SD equation which makes perfect sense in golf.

The force x mass thing does not apply to golf very well so now I'm missing the point of having this discussion.

Ummm...really? Force = Mass x Acceleration very much applies to ball speed, which, as discussed, is ONE important factor in distance, which is ONE important factor in club selection.

As far as I can tell, this discussion - spanning two threads - continues because of a lack of understanding, or an unwillingness to accept, the basic physics. As for Mikey's point, it was well articulated, backed by experience, and conveyed with appropriate caveat.

Since we're all looking for combinations that work optimally for us, a suggestion that head weight (higher or lower) is not a factor in optimization is confusing to me.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Ummm...really? Force = Mass x Acceleration very much applies to ball speed, which, as discussed, is ONE important factor in distance, which is ONE important factor in club selection.

As far as I can tell, this discussion - spanning two threads - continues because of a lack of understanding, or an unwillingness to accept, the basic physics. As for Mikey's point, it was well articulated, backed by experience, and conveyed with appropriate caveat.

Since we're all looking for combinations that work optimally for us, a suggestion that head weight (higher or lower) is not a factor in optimization is confusing to me.

Mikey challenges the SD assertion that a lighter weight equals higher ball speed, he counters it with FxMA which requires all variables to be constant including the swing. That is not golf, that is a swing robot in a controlled indoor environment.

Let's take FxMA into the real world and see how it applies to golf and what the OEMs are doing with it that make actual and tangible differences.

In the real world YOU swing the lighter club faster, YOU have a higher initial ball speed while the opposite is true of the heavier club...

Lighter weight tech has been one of the biggest advancements in golf since the 70's period, not a gimmick.

How has force x mass improved your driver build and game?

[chiromikey]

In the real world I might swing the lighter club faster for the first few swings until my body gets used to it then I go back to my comfort zone. Since I never swing 100% on the course I tend to maintain a comfortable and similar swing speed with a heavy or light head. In my case that means I get more distance with the heavier driver.

Forget F=ma if you don't think it applies to golf and use the Sevendreamers equation (which is a golf specific derivative of the same equation btw). They BOTH prove the same thing...increasing head mass or head speed equals higher ball speed (distance).

The ONLY way SD can assert a lighter club equals higher ball speed is if they are also using a higher value for swing speed and their equation proves this. Lower weight alone is physically impossible to achieve this.

Edited August 13, 2014 by chiromikey

[kaaayelll]

OK

[+TourSpecGolfer]

In the real world I might swing the lighter club faster for the first few swings until my body gets used to it then I go back to my comfort zone. Since I never swing 100% on the course I tend to maintain a comfortable and similar swing speed with a heavy or light head. In my case that means I get more distance with the heavier driver.

Forget F=ma if you don't think it applies to golf and use the Sevendreamers equation (which is a golf specific derivative of the same equation btw). They BOTH prove the same thing...increasing head mass or head speed equals higher ball speed (distance).

The ONLY way SD can assert a lighter club equals higher ball speed is if they are also using a higher value for swing speed and their equation proves this. Lower weight alone is physically impossible to achieve this.

How does the SD equation assert that a heavier club generates a higher ball speed?

Also what do you see as the flaw in their logic?

[chiromikey]

As soon as you perform the equation you'll understand...

[+TourSpecGolfer]

As soon as you perform the equation you'll understand...

I'm gonna need help with that one because I'm not seeing the flaw in their logic. Can you please explain?

[chiromikey]

Here's the math using a 190g driver head vs a 220g head. I used .83 for COR and the USGA's maximum allowable weight of 45.93g for a golf ball.

Edited August 13, 2014 by chiromikey

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Thank you, but I still don't know how you think it's flawed, can you give me a question to bring to SD to stump them?

Your saying the heavier head weight will create more force and distance right?

I'm saying in the REAL people don't swing the heavy clubs as fast as they do the lighter club.

So in the REAL your equation only matters when all things are equal while SD's equation ( to me at least ) takes into consideration the variables

What am I missing here Mikey?

[chiromikey]

I think you're right that in theory most people are capable of swinging a lighter club faster...when they give 100%. On the course I wouldn't be surprised if most people swing within a comfort zone which yields a similar swing speed for both. My assertion is, and I stated this in my very first post in the original thread, is that we should swing the heaviest head that doesn't decrease swing speed by more than 1mph for maximum distance.

[chiromikey]

I do the math later to figure out the relationship between head speed and mass and what the trade off/gains are.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

we should swing the heaviest head that doesn't decrease swing speed by more than 1mph for maximum distance

That makes perfect sense, there are 2 things that ride along side this.

1. The player must get on a launch monitor with his final build and add/remove lead tape to find out what that optional head weight is.

2. Too much weight added via hot melt, foam, even adjustable weights can ruin the performance of the original design.

If there is something I can ask SD do tell.

[robbie]

The 7 Dreamers shaft sounds awesome, i only mentioned Physics of Golf only because i have zero golf talent but strive to get better....ive played from 43" drivers to 48" drivers....swingweight from C2 to E8.....basically ill try everything in search of the extra yard. Golf is a funny game, you might be down by 9 strokes at the turn but if you outdrive your buddy by a couple of inches, you still feel amazingly successful.

* You got your 7 dreamers coming in soon Chris ?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The 7 Dreamers shaft sounds awesome, i only mentioned Physics of Golf only because i have zero golf talent but strive to get better....ive played from 43" drivers to 48" drivers....swingweight from C2 to E8.....basically ill try everything in search of the extra yard. Golf is a funny game, you might be down by 9 strokes at the turn but if you outdrive your buddy by a couple of inches, you still feel amazingly successful.

* You got your 7 dreamers coming in soon Chris ?

Yup I ordered the "control" shaft it's being built now. I hope to also do the Haute Couture model when I visit Japan next month.

[chiromikey]

That makes perfect sense, there are 2 things that ride along side this.

1. The player must get on a launch monitor with his final build and add/remove lead tape to find out what that optional head weight is.

2. Too much weight added via hot melt, foam, even adjustable weights can ruin the performance of the original design.

If there is something I can ask SD do tell.

I can agree with that. It was the launch monitor results with a Ping i15 that initially got me curious about head weight. I have a very flat swing that can cause the head to not stay down at impact so I wondered if adding head weight would help me not have to concentrate on keeping my swing on plane. Besides achieving my initial goal we discovered that as we added more and more head weight my swing speed didn't decrease like we expected and I was gaining a few yards.

I really don't have any specific questions for SD but when I finally make it to Japan I hope you and SD can make time for me!

[chiromikey]

Using SD's equation, a good estimate appears to be that every 10g head weight roughly equals 1mph swing speed. So if you give up 20g head weight you need to gain 2mph to get the same distance or at least 3mph to achieve an overall gain.

Another bit if applicable info for anyone that wants to estimate what this means for actual distance: According to Trackman's chart of 2010 data, using 90-110mph swing speeds, each mph yields approximately 2.6yds total distance.

Edited August 13, 2014 by chiromikey

[robbie]

Yup I ordered the "control" shaft it's being built now. I hope to also do the Haute Couture model when I visit Japan next month.

The Haute Couture sounds like a Winner !