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nobmontana

Epon SUS316 & Miura CB 1008 LTD comparos

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Haven't done a comparative review in a while ... 

We've been lucky here in Washington this fall and weather has been dry thus far.   Got quite a bit of 9 hole rounds after work. 

I've built both of these sets in the last 3 months and now have a good idea of their differences strength and weaknesses. 

The builds: 

1. Epon AF-505 / SUS316 Combo,  NS Pro Modus 125 S  ( #4&#5 are AF-505 )  built with Prosoft inserts

2. Miura Giken CB 1008 99.3% pure iron, True Temper Monaco Stiff Soft Stepped x 1  built with Prosoft inserts

While I have owned and tried many forged carbon steel irons,  most have been either S20C or S25C in one form or another.    These two irons I have now are sort of unique in that they are neither S20C or S25C.   The SUS316 as the name suggests is made from forged SUS316 Stainless Steel.   From a physical property perspective,  it is supposed to be softer than S20C...    The CB 1008 is what Miura claims as "99.3% Pure Steel"    Carbon in typical carbon steel material is considered "impurity" in steel.   99.3% Pure Steel contains a lot less carbon and supposedly a lot softer.     

I've come to learn over the years that physical hardness of the material isn't the entire story when it comes to the feel at impact... the ball, shaft and grip also play a vital role in the overall sensation transmitted from ball to face, face to hosel,  hosel to shaft, shaft to grip, grip to hand. 

 

Looks: 

From address, they look awfully similar.   Both have a players cavity profile but with thinner top lines than your typical CBs. 

I like that about these two irons.    There is some offset on both sets.   Not significant enough that they bother me.   For all I know I think it's helping me hit it better.    The Epon have the standard Chrome plated finish. I  believe these came in non-plated finish as well but I have heard they turn dark after a while  ( probably from oxidization )  and are more susceptible to chatter marks.    I am happy with the Chrome finish.   Perhaps the raw ones are a touch softer feel?   not sure.      The Miuras have a beautiful Satin Chrome finish.   I'm thinking Miuras Satin Chrome finish is by far the most durable finish.    After several rounds, I typically start to see tiny dots of rusting on the face but I just don't see that much with Miuras.    The back cavity side design is all preference but the Epons look much like the Titleist 695 CBs.    the Miura CB-1008 on the other hand is a lot more classic simpler design but the cutouts added give an updated look.   

Feel:  

Both irons rank at the top when it comes to how soft they feel at impact.  By a significant margin, I believe these are the two softest irons I have owned.  The Miuras feel a bit more denser.   and the Epons are lighter feeling impact if that makes sense.   Both are marshmallow soft when you hit the middle.  I really don't have the urge to try other irons at the moment.   I do have the Seven x Shinagawas which I love playing, but the feel at impact goes to the Epon and Miuras.   The Shinagawa MBs do look 100 times better though!!!  

Performance: 

The Miuras are slightly stronger lofted with a 45 deg PW all the way to a 22 deg 4 iron.   The Epons are 46 deg PW and 24 deg 4 iron.   It's interesting that Miura put stronger lofts on these players profile cavity backs.  It is said that the 99.3% Pure Irons are so soft that there have been reports that distance is somewhat shorter on these irons and so they had to compensate by making the lofts stronger.   I have not yet validated this in detail but I pretty much use the same club for the distance I need on both of these irons.  So perhaps the claim is true. 

One aspect that is quite different is the flight on these two irons.    I do believe the difference comes from the shafts.   Epon/Modus 125 has a mid to high trajectory and the Miura/Monacos have low trajectory.     Where I see the ball flying after impact is significantly lower than anticipated for the Miuras.  From that, I think the Miuras would be a great choice for windy conditions.   The Epons are a good all rounder.    

Accuracy is a bit better with the Epons.   Possibly because of the slightly heavier shafts. Distance wise,  Interestingly I seem to be getting a little more distance out of the heavier Epons/Modus combo.  The differences are slight but noticeable.   

Two great sets of irons that I will rotate and keep playing.   

I am enjoying iron play more than ever thanks to these two sets!!  

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Glad the sus went to a good home.

i know you have the epon af tour cbs for a period can you comment on them compared to these 2?

i personally found the sus to be a be clicker compared to the af tour cbs.

i did have a set of the miuras that I only gamed for 1 round and moved them on, but I think the shimada tour Stiff and muziik grips did not work in that head for me.

totally get the shaft grip comments you made.

cheers Nob

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5 minutes ago, D22marshall said:

Glad the sus went to a good home.

i know you have the epon af tour cbs for a period can you comment on them compared to these 2?

i personally found the sus to be a be clicker compared to the af tour cbs.

i did have a set of the miuras that I only gamed for 1 round and moved them on, but I think the shimada tour Stiff and muziik grips did not work in that head for me.

totally get the shaft grip comments you made.

cheers Nob

 

The SUS316s are as soft or softer than the AF Tour CBs in my opinion.  I believe I had graphite shafts in the AF Tour CBs so probably not a fair comparison.  With steel shafts, I started installing Pro Soft inserts in all my irons as well as my putters.    The inserts remove unwanted vibration upon impact.   I think it makes the impact feel a bit muted in most cases. I also think the heavier Modus 125 also contributing to the denser feel at impact.   I've always thought heavier weight steel bring out the best feel in forged heads.   DG S400s would probably feel awesome in these heads, but they are also too heavy for me.   At my age,  it's probably another 5 years or so that I get to keep playing these heavier steel shafts.  Gotta enjoy them while I can! 😉    Once I get to a point where I can't swing these shafts any longer,  I'll switch to graphite.  I've already saved a couple of  "unobtainium" graphite shafts for that purpose!     

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u  seem to like that head shape huh, ?

the other one u cud easily throw in to the mix is the PRGR nabla ids ver ysimlar shape. very similar  IF NOT SOFTER feel.

 

denser shafts ,like NS sp blue/shimada tour 125s,dgs200/ns 125s  DO enhance the feel of the likes of mizzie/onff/epon/ prgr nabla id   which are  butter soft .

miura.yamaha,prgr,tourstage etc...  feel best with a slightly less taught shaft    like NS 950s/1050, .sp orange, modus 120s dg tour lights.

its  a pretty discernable  difference tin my book  and  its enough for me to oust asset bec they have non perfect shafting.

 but we are al la bit magimae   otaku s  here..............

 

 

Edited by supo

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1 hour ago, nobmontana said:

 

The SUS316s are as soft or softer than the AF Tour CBs in my opinion.  I believe I had graphite shafts in the AF Tour CBs so probably not a fair comparison.  With steel shafts, I started installing Pro Soft inserts in all my irons as well as my putters.    The inserts remove unwanted vibration upon impact.   I think it makes the impact feel a bit muted in most cases. I also think the heavier Modus 125 also contributing to the denser feel at impact.   I've always thought heavier weight steel bring out the best feel in forged heads.   DG S400s would probably feel awesome in these heads, but they are also too heavy for me.   At my age,  it's probably another 5 years or so that I get to keep playing these heavier steel shafts.  Gotta enjoy them while I can! 😉    Once I get to a point where I can't swing these shafts any longer,  I'll switch to graphite.  I've already saved a couple of  "unobtainium" graphite shafts for that purpose!     

Great stuff Nobs......

What would be the unobtainium shafts.....Care to share...lol

SUS are superb...one of those heads I wish hadnt left the stable. Had the tour lites in the SUS and loved the feel with that shaft, as you say very nice with the plating.

The best feeling set up I can remember playing was the P1 with SPR...Should never have turned those in to copper and sold....Anyway thats what we do.

Gaming the P3 ATM with 105 Limited..... I rate them for a pocket cavity. Slight click and very lively but with a great feel also, very satisfying shape. Just not sold on the black mirror finish.

 

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4 hours ago, supo said:

u  seem to like that head shape huh, ?

the other one u cud easily throw in to the mix is the PRGR nabla ids ver ysimlar shape. very similar  IF NOT SOFTER feel.

 

denser shafts ,like NS sp blue/shimada tour 125s,dgs200/ns 125s  DO enhance the feel of the likes of mizzie/onff/epon/ prgr nabla id   which are  butter soft .

miura.yamaha,prgr,tourstage etc...  feel best with a slightly less taught shaft    like NS 950s/1050, .sp orange, modus 120s dg tour lights.

its  a pretty discernable  difference tin my book  and  its enough for me to oust asset bec they have non perfect shafting.

 but we are al la bit magimae   otaku s  here..............

 

 

 

The head shapes on these are okay.   ideally want less offset and slightly pointy toe shape.  

The Seven x Shinagawas have the ideal shape for me.  But I'm not gonna use them for money my games at the weekend Men's club. 

I do have a new old stock set of IDBLs which actually have the ideal shape in a cavity back.   Perhaps I should rip them out of the shrink and put it in my rotation. 

  

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4 hours ago, hutchy said:

Great stuff Nobs......

What would be the unobtainium shafts.....Care to share...lol

SUS are superb...one of those heads I wish hadnt left the stable. Had the tour lites in the SUS and loved the feel with that shaft, as you say very nice with the plating.

The best feeling set up I can remember playing was the P1 with SPR...Should never have turned those in to copper and sold....Anyway thats what we do.

Gaming the P3 ATM with 105 Limited..... I rate them for a pocket cavity. Slight click and very lively but with a great feel also, very satisfying shape. Just not sold on the black mirror finish.

 

Oh ... they're nothing special ... just two sets of Crazy CBI-80 limiteds in the Stiff flex and Regular flex.   🙂

I think they would work awesome with the SUS316 and the CB1008s   

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11 minutes ago, nobmontana said:

Oh ... they're nothing special ... just two sets of Crazy CBI-80 limiteds in the Stiff flex and Regular flex.   🙂

I think they would work awesome with the SUS316 and the CB1008s   

Lol...Nothing special at all. 

 

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Thanks Nobs!

I’ve had a chance to play around with the Miuras but somehow the Epon SUS are a head that has never made it’s way to me. Having owned most of the cult Epons I’m not sure why these didn’t do anything for me. I think maybe they just came out when I was deep into blades or I got tired of Epon’s insistence of moderate amounts of offset. Anyways, I had no idea these were that soft, maybe I’ll have to reconsider.

I have to agree with you about heavier steel shafts bringing out the best in forged heads. My iD-BLs with Modus120 X are the best feeling club I have. And there’s honestly not even a close second. The weight is the only explanation I have for an X flex shaft feeling better than any of the S flexes I typically play.

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Great review Nobs! For next year I have a set of idbl's with Modus 120S and a set of Honma 727V with KBS $-taper (along with the other sets...). I love the look of the idbl's, but have never played them, and the Honma's look so easy to hit. Given the fact that I hit about 10 balls per year on the range, the Honmas may be the ones I play the most. We'll see in late May/early June when courses around here are worth playing again.

How do the 1008 compare in size to the 1006? I found them to be a bit too big.

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I wrote it before - but I never felt anything as buttery soft as:
Tourstage 705 type M
Shimada tour lites 
Mazda slickfit

I gamed Miura 501 for 5 years with Shimada tour lites and Mazda grips but these didnt even compare to the sensation of the Tourstage..
Currently I have epon 503 with shimada and the softness is not even near (thinking Endo forged both 503 and tourstages)..

Maybe for me the Shimada tour lites (very high CPM) gave me a good feel off the face? or maybe the stiffness helps remove vibrations? or maybe a lot is in the grips?

Anyone who tried Tourstage 705-M and SUS316? i'd love to get a comboset too...

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From the Tourstage range,  I've gamed the X-Blade 709 Limited Combo a few years ago and the Bridgestone J015CB last season.     

709s were pretty soft but the J015CB were so so... with the 709s I had Nippon 1150GH and then in the J015CB I had the Shimada K's 8001 in them.    Neither of these combos were as soft as the SUS316 or the Miuras.    The 709 limiteds and  the J015CB both had dark finishes.   Not sure what type of finishes they were but perhaps that had to some effect on feel?   not sure..  

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2 hours ago, bngolfer said:

Great review Nobs! For next year I have a set of idbl's with Modus 120S and a set of Honma 727V with KBS $-taper (along with the other sets...). I love the look of the idbl's, but have never played them, and the Honma's look so easy to hit. Given the fact that I hit about 10 balls per year on the range, the Honmas may be the ones I play the most. We'll see in late May/early June when courses around here are worth playing again.

How do the 1008 compare in size to the 1006? I found them to be a bit too big.

I have not seen a 1006 in person ... but based on the dimensions shown in their website,  I think they are about the same size. 

I don't consider CB1008 to be too big at all.  The PP 9003 on the other hand is a bit too big.       

From the Miura line ups,  I believe MB and MC series are the most compact  and then the CB 1000 series  followed by CB 2000 series and then you have the PP series that are what Miura calls "Mid Size" 

 

 

 

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My bad, it was the CB2006.

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I still can not believe it took this long to do the irons in fe 99.3, it has been over 15 years since bridgestone/tourstage did the mr-23 us spec wedges 2004 version and the maru x-wedge 2005 version in fe 99.3. 

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My understanding is that there are two challenges to producing Fe 99.3 heads. 

1.  Material availability and cost?   not verified but Miura claims that additional steps required to achieve this level of purity adds time ad cost.  

2. Miura claims that grinding the 99.3 heads are more difficult due to the material being a bit more "sticky"  on the grinding wheel.   Takes a highly experienced grinder/craftsman to do them right.  

May all be marketing hype but I'm loving these heads so far. 

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1 hour ago, bngolfer said:

My bad, it was the CB2006.

Ah yes... the CB 2006 looks to be 3 to 4 mm longer than the CB 1008 from heel to toe.    

They don't exactly list the overall blade length on their site so it's hard to tell the actual difference. 

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From an insider perspective, the cost difference is minimal and anyone can grind these.  SUS cost more than FE in setup and per head.

FE99 vs SUS vs S25C  by design you can make any of them feel softer or harder by changing the sole width/design/loft/finish/shaft/grip 

While material matters it is not as much as we think.  Consider what Mizuno does to feel and also what the older cast Honma's and Fourteen TB Proto blades felt like.  Consider the raw grain yururi's or kk's and how they feel at impact as well and how no plating and a raw grain influences feel.  

Also, I found that heat treatment does almost nothing to S25C or FE99 but has a noticeable impact on SUS.

 

 

 

 

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See - this is what has been missing in the last year or so. Someone, like Noboru, to start a thread off with a great review. Then all of us chumps giving our 2 cents worth, and then Chris chips in. We're on our way back. FUN!

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More to come....  I'm in the review mood.  🙂

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Bring it on!

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9 hours ago, nobmontana said:

More to come....  I'm in the review mood.  🙂

Looking forward. 

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On 10/23/2018 at 4:07 AM, nobmontana said:

The CB 1008 is what Miura claims as "99.3% Pure Steel"    Carbon in typical carbon steel material is considered "impurity" in steel.   99.3% Pure Steel contains a lot less carbon and supposedly a lot softer.     

 

Nice review....

 

But that stuff above...

😨

You could check the Wiki for steel or this to fill your boots on info on metals and steels...

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/types-of-steel/

but basically

"All steel is composed of iron and carbon. It is the amount of carbon, and the additional alloys that determine the properties of each grade."

 

take away all that carbon 'impurity' (?!!!) from steel and you'd end up with the raw material, iron - definitely not softer.

Just very weird - maybe poor translations or who knows... grades of steels may have unwanted impurities, or its alloying components may not be controlled as closely perhaps... but carbon is necessary and 'good'.

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With all the talk about 99.3 Fe being pure and feeling better, my Marus were definitely some of the best performers but they were also some of my least favorite “feel” wedges.

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53 minutes ago, chiromikey said:

With all the talk about 99.3 Fe being pure and feeling better, my Marus were definitely some of the best performers but they were also some of my least favorite “feel” wedges.

I have two sets of the Miura S-01 FE wedges now and they are also soft.

Feel is subjective but I wouldn't ever classify these Miura Irons or the S-01 wedges as harsh feeling. 

 

I've owned a couple of Tourstage irons and wedges in smoke finish and they were not the best feeling.   

Weren't  Marus also in a dark finish?   Perhaps that has to do with feel?  

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