gocchin Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Well I finally got around to posting up Part One of the Six shaft shootout... the launch monitor session. Graphite Design Tour AD PT-6 vs Fujikura Rombax 6V05 vs Mamiya Op Axiv V 6070 vs Daiwa Roddio W6BA vs Mitsubishi Diamana D63 vs Mizuno Quad 6Butt Standard Check it out at Inpakuto.com and be sure to download the video of the launch monitor session with Golf Gear Pro Kenji Tanaka. http://www.inpakuto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggie Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Gocchin, You are simply the best. Terrific article. Can't wait for the 2nd part to be put up. Any time frame? I know for sure the Roddio WA is for me because I swing alot harder but not as pretty than Kenji Tanaka. Sure wish I knew how to understand Japanese to actually absorb what they were talking about after every hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxgolf Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thank you for your post. I find it extremly useful since I use AXIV V 6070 in my driver. That would give me a good understanding of my current shaft when compared to others I felt AXIV V is a very solid shaft and consistant, however, I might try a different shaft for the new driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) Very interesting article... but not sure one can conclude much if anything other than GET FIT ON A MONITOR!! For example, the Diamana had way too low spin and therfore maybe something as simple as a switch to a ProV higher spinning ball would make that the best performing shaft. OR, the ballspeeds off the clubface with the AXIV were WAY low and bring that up to equilibrium with the 109ish of the other strikes and PRESTO that one would be the bomber. So, point is there's more to the raw data than meets the eye... in the end its about PROPER fitting... MAXIMIZING (ie., high launch, low spin, greatest ballspeeds) your numbers... and what FEELS best. JAT... Edited February 1, 2007 by siteseer2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocchin Posted February 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Very interesting article... but not sure one can conclude much if anything other than GET FIT ON A MONITOR!! For example, the Diamana had way too low spin and therfore maybe something as simple as a switch to a ProV higher spinning ball would make that the best performing shaft. OR, the ballspeeds off the clubface with the AXIV were WAY low and bring that up to equilibrium with the 109ish of the other strikes and PRESTO that one would be the bomber. So, point is there's more to the raw data than meets the eye... in the end its about PROPER fitting... MAXIMIZING (ie., high launch, low spin, greatest ballspeeds) your numbers... and what FEELS best. JAT... Yup yup, the data I posted is more for info than anything. As I concluded in the article, it's all about your own swing... the results there were based on Kenji Tanaka's swing and game. I've got another recent test with the Quattro Tech, new Rombax X and Diamana D, and with a Yamaha Pro doing the testing with the Inpres X 425V the results were quite different for the Diamana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Yup yup, the data I posted is more for info than anything. As I concluded in the article, it's all about your own swing... the results there were based on Kenji Tanaka's swing and game. I've got another recent test with the Quattro Tech, new Rombax X and Diamana D, and with a Yamaha Pro doing the testing with the Inpres X 425V the results were quite different for the Diamana. Thanks... I really enjoy inpakuto... Agree with everything you said... BUT I'd even go further and say that the results were not merely based on Tanaka's swing-- because I dare say even based on the data, some tweaking of the tested products would yield VERY different results even for him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thanks for sharing the results of the Six shaft shoot out. It is a refreshing study and demonstrates the value of launch monitor feedback in finding a driver/shaft combination that works for you. I would like to complement the report with a closer look at all shafts ordered by total distance with OptimalFlight. The following presentation is broken down into two parts, one covering the top 4 total distance results and the other covering the bottom 4 for total distance. Shafts Graphite Design Tour AD PT-6 and Mizuno Quad 6Butt Standard are in both reports because they represent the middle 2 results. Part 1: Flight A: Daiwa Roddio W6BA Flight B: Fujikura Rombax 6V05 Flight C: Graphite Design Tour AD PT-6 Flight D: Mizuno Quad 6Butt Standard Part 2: Flight A: Graphite Design Tour AD PT-6 Flight B: Mizuno Quad 6Butt Standard Flight C: Mamiya Op Axiv V 6070 Flight D: Mitsubishi Diamana D63 Here is a basic summary of the top 4 results. All numbers from the Vector launch monitor appear to be reasonable and valid (as indicated by the green bell shaped curve). OptimalFlight's roll calibration was set at 68% to better match Vector's results for total distance. The ball flight picture shows the Daiwa Roddio W6BA shaft to be launching higher and at low spin. All 4 shafts contribute to a slightly different flight. Due to near similar launch angles, Flights B, C, D have similar optimal carry profiles. The Fujikura Rombax 6V05 shaft produced a near optimal flight path with spin only 54 rpm away from optimal spin to maximize carry and distance. However, the Daiwa Roddio W6BA's higher launch and lower spin combination produced more distance. These graphs summarize results for total distance and landing angle. All 4 drives here had desirable landing angles between 35 and 40 degrees. The Daiwa Roddio W6BA shaft can actually benefit with a little more spin. These graphs present the flight conditions and results in graph form. Part 2: Flight A: Graphite Design Tour AD PT-6 Flight B: Mizuno Quad 6Butt Standard Flight C: Mamiya Op Axiv V 6070 Flight D: Mitsubishi Diamana D63 Here is a basic summary of the bottom 4 results for total distance. All numbers from the Vector launch monitor appear to be reasonable and valid (as indicated by the green bell shaped curve). We start to see some differences due to changes in launch conditions (1600 rpm range in spin and nearly 5mph range in ball speed). The next closest drive to optimal flight is the Mamiya Op Axiv V 6070, being only 174 rpm higher than optimal spin. One shaft fell out of the Optimal Distance Zone. It was the Mitsubishi Diamana D63 because it had ultra low spin (1406 rpm) and affected carry results to be shorter than expected. The best results overall were with the Daiwa Roddio W6BA. Kenji Tanaka benefited from a high launch low spin combination to gain an additional 8 yards (5-6 yards in carry and 2-3 more yards of roll) over the Fujikura Rombax 6V05. The article concluded well with the conclusion that "Finding a shaft that fits your game is not easy. There are many factors to take into account including your swing speed, swing style, your level of ability, the type of head it's matched to. Hopefully some launch monitor data like this can help you find your way. All these shafts are great performers, you just have to find the right one that matches your swing." What's right for Kenji Tanaka may not be right for you. Launch monitor feedback and the opportunity to work with an experienced clubfitter can make a real difference in making sense of the shaft options to work with your favorite driver. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocchin Posted February 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Very good information Todd, thanks for sharing. I've got tons of shaft and launch monitor data that we can try... (^_^). I'm curious as to how a player's different handicap and skill affects the numbers of Optimal Flight's calculations. For example, Tanaka is a pro and he is a great ball striker who can probably hit the sweetspot dead on 97% of the time. It looks like OF takes all the factors of the launch and calculates if the distance is optimal. Can a player go backwards and input the desired distance to find the shaft characteristics he/she should be looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Very good information Todd, thanks for sharing. I've got tons of shaft and launch monitor data that we can try... (^_^).I'm curious as to how a player's different handicap and skill affects the numbers of Optimal Flight's calculations. For example, Tanaka is a pro and he is a great ball striker who can probably hit the sweetspot dead on 97% of the time. It looks like OF takes all the factors of the launch and calculates if the distance is optimal. Can a player go backwards and input the desired distance to find the shaft characteristics he/she should be looking for? It would be great to see what OptimalFlight can do with your data. The program has validated data from all kinds of launch monitor systems and real world data. (Vector, Vector Pro, Zelocity, Swing Dynamics, Achiever, and radar based systems such as Flightscope, AboutGolf, and Trackman) The more consistent the player striking the ball creates more opportunity to understand what happens at impact and how the shaft can affect launch conditions for ball speed, spin, and launch angle. If set up as a series of controlled experiments, the shaft effects can be further quantified and discover what it takes to fully unleash the the energy of the shaft and produce a desireable distance result. It is possible there is a shaft that a player of Tanaka's skill will have trouble being consistent with (for reasons of weight, flex, or bend profile, or simply how the club was set up). In this case, more variation will exist in the launch conditions and distance results. This is why I recommend selecting the most similar 3 or 4 shots from a set of shots for final data analysis and be able to learn how well the player is able to reproduce results. Normally, we would expect to lot more variation when dealing with different handicap or skill levels. Some players have the whole package and is successful in their long, short and putting game. What I've learned is grouping data by handicap doesn't offer a real clear picture because there are golfers who are great drivers of the ball off the tee and have a weak spot in their short game. Can a player go backwards and input the desired distance to find the shaft characteristics he/she should be looking for? OptimalFlight has the capability to let the person to play around with the launch conditions to learn what kinds of distance results they can get for various ball speed, launch and spin values. Shaft characteristics brings into a whole new set of variables for consideration. The more data we can gather on the players swing (how the ball is hit (downward attack, upward attack), smooth swinger, aggressive swinger?), it will help narrow down the shaft options to properly release it's energy (due to bend profiles, weight, flex) to maximize the ball speed. Do you have such data in this manner? What may work well for Tanaka may not work well for me simply because of how the club is swung. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) ALL4: Great data... some of the best I've seen.... the clear take-away on this is: Sub 110 SS players NEED LOFT and SPIN, period. This mantra about high launch low spin is NOT helping mere mortals gain distance. For a 105ish SS you need 14 DEGREES of loft!!!!! And spin in the 2500ish range. SOooo forget about your ego, get a higher loft driver, period. Example: eyeballing the number IF Tanaka got a driver with 2 degrees more loft (11.5) and used the Rombax-- it would win among the other competitor shafts. ALL4 see if running those numbers don't optimize Tanaka with the rombax and adding 2 degrees more loft... and then try adding 3 degrees more loft -- which should be even better... Thanks Edited February 2, 2007 by siteseer2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 ALL4: Great data... some of the best I've seen.... the clear take-away on this is: Sub 110 SS players NEED LOFT and SPIN, period. This mantra about high launch low spin is NOT helping mere mortals gain distance. For a 105ish SS you need 14 DEGREES of loft!!!!! And spin in the 2500ish range. SOooo forget about your ego, get a higher loft driver, period. Example: eyeballing the number IF Tanaka got a driver with 2 degrees more loft (11.5) and used the Rombax-- it would win among the other competitor shafts. ALL4 see if running those numbers don't optimize Tanaka with the rombax and adding 2 degrees more loft... and then try adding 3 degrees more loft -- which should be even better... Thanks Siteseer2: Thanks for your postitve comments!! Tanaka's ball speed is at a level where he can realize some benefit from high launch and low spin. However, the full benefits of low spin will be realized more with much greater ball speeds (165MPH+). This weekend, I'll run a what if scenario with 2 more degrees of launch and 4 more degrees and post it here for review. If anyone wants a complimentary OptimalFlight report of their lm numbers, there's a form that can be completed at the bottom of the www.qualitygolfstats.com website page. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggie Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Siteseer2: Thanks for your postitve comments!! Tanaka's ball speed is at a level where he can realize some benefit from high launch and low spin. However, the full benefits of low spin will be realized more with much greater ball speeds (165MPH+). This weekend, I'll run a what if scenario with 2 more degrees of launch and 4 more degrees and post it here for review. If anyone wants a complimentary OptimalFlight report of their lm numbers, there's a form that can be completed at the bottom of the www.qualitygolfstats.com website page. Regards, Todd All4Golf Any results yet for the scenario you were going to run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Any results yet for the scenario you were going to run? I'm going to post it today. Stay tuned! Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Here's a what if example of the Fujikura Rombax 6V05 shaft with 2 and 4 more degrees of loft. Does it win the against the other shafts? It does for carry at 15.1* launch but total distance will be shorter because of a steeper landing angle. What we learned here is that launching it high needs lower spin to keep a flatter and penetrating flight. Tanaka's 11.1* degree launch gave him the flexibility of working with more spin to keep the ball in the air. Regards, Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Great stuff, Todd... best data I've seen!! Based on the choices I'd play the Rombax, and look to get the spin down with a differnet ball!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Todd, correct me If I'm wrong but the BIGGEST factor in more distance for most players is more LOFT... the incremental gains from spin adjusments seem minimal so long as the spin is somwhere close... thoughts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Todd, correct me If I'm wrong but the BIGGEST factor in more distance for most players is more LOFT... the incremental gains from spin adjusments seem minimal so long as the spin is somwhere close... thoughts?? Thanks for your positive comments!! It depends on the player, the amount of ball speed he or she can generate, and the golf course played most often. I advocate a ball speed, then jointly look at launch angle with spin fitting strategy. The problem with more launch is most players will experience more spin (which may be a good thing for sub 130-140 ball speeds, but an undesireable for high ball speed player (ballooned shots). Regards, Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggie Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Thanks for your positive comments!! It depends on the player, the amount of ball speed he or she can generate, and the golf course played most often. I advocate a ball speed, then jointly look at launch angle with spin fitting strategy. The problem with more launch is most players will experience more spin (which may be a good thing for sub 130-140 ball speeds, but an undesireable for high ball speed player (ballooned shots). Regards, Todd Good stuff Todd. If you also added the 2 degrees and 4 degrees of loft to any of the other shafts would they still outperform the Rombax, caterus paribus? I'm particularly interested if the numbers for the Axiv and Roddio would also be optimized or whether they have been maxed out already. I used to have a lot of loft in my first drivers but I did notice that they balloon and the spin I imparted when I hit it hard caused too much backspin and created no roll and it was really bad when I was driving into the wind. Of course, it may also be due to the fact that I've been using US drivers and when they say it's 10.5 degrees it may actually be 11 to 13--never had it checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Good stuff Todd. If you also added the 2 degrees and 4 degrees of loft to any of the other shafts would they still outperform the Rombax, caterus paribus? I'm particularly interested if the numbers for the Axiv and Roddio would also be optimized or whether they have been maxed out already.I used to have a lot of loft in my first drivers but I did notice that they balloon and the spin I imparted when I hit it hard caused too much backspin and created no roll and it was reallybad when I was driving into the wind. Of course, it may also be due to the fact that I've been using US drivers and when they say it's 10.5 degrees it may actually be 11 to 13--never had it checked. You're asking some good questions and it may be a couple of posts to answer what you're looking for. It is possible to entertain this scenario, however, keep in mind that we are dealing with a range of ball speeds (154.6-160.4) and spin (1,401 to 2,962) in this shoot out. I'd like gocchin or tourspecgolfer to comment how I should proceed and keep this thread on topic. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer2 Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 (edited) Todd, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe with the parameters of the (1) Winbird club and (2) those 6 shaft options and (3) Tanaka's swing, the question becomes what combo would optimize it.... the Answer is: a launch angle of approximately 15-16 dregees and spin of 2400. Gains from further "tinkering" would be negligable-- probably less than 3-4 yds. Edited February 12, 2007 by siteseer2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Todd, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe with the parameters of the (1) Winbird club and (2) those 6 shaft options and (3) Tanaka's swing, the question becomes what combo would optimize it.... the Answer is: a launch angle of approximately 15-16 dregees and spin of 2400. Gains from further "tinkering" would be negligable-- probably less than 3-4 yds. Using a simple average of Tanaka's results, Ball speed: 158.6 Mph Backspin = 2318 A launch between 13 and 15 would be ideal with spin around 2300-2400 rpm. This is robust enough for all ball speeds in this study. It would be best to have landing angle less than 40 degrees to maximize chances for additional roll. Too steep of a landing will minimize roll. If Tanaka wants to hit it harder, the extra distance will come easily. A shaft permitting him to hit it higher with lower spin is a bonus. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocchin Posted February 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Great information Todd, I'm loving your analysis. Translating the numbers into real life performance can be difficult for many including myself. You're really helping out. ^^ I'm going to post Yamaha labs' test of the Diamana White, Quattro Tech and new Rombax X soon and you can try again if you want. (^_^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4Golf Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Using a simple average of Tanaka's results, Ball speed: 158.6 Mph Backspin = 2318 A launch between 13 and 15 would be ideal with spin around 2300-2400 rpm. This is robust enough for all ball speeds in this study. It would be best to have landing angle less than 40 degrees to maximize chances for additional roll. Too steep of a landing will minimize roll. If Tanaka wants to hit it harder, the extra distance will come easily. A shaft permitting him to hit it higher with lower spin is a bonus. Regards, Todd All4Golf It was interesting to discover how Tanaka already achieved this optimal set up with another driver. New Callaway Hyper ERC Driver Written by gocchin Wednesday, 10 January 2007 Callaway Golf has released their new JDM only Hyper ERC driver. This 460cc head is available in lofts of 8.5, 9.5, 10.5, 11.5 and 12.5. Off the bat Callaway Japan is offering the driver with the stock Speed Axis shaft as well as upgrade shafts including Rombax, Quattro Tech and Diamana. To give an initial impression of the driver's performance, Golf Gear pro Tanaka hit a 9.5* stiff stock shaft club on the Accusport Launch Monitor. The ball produced a slight hook off impact indicating draw like characteristics. The drives ended up pretty much straight or as a light draw. Headspeed: 105.75mph Ballspeed: 155.25mph Launch Angle: 13.9* Backspin: 2419RPM Sidespin: Hook 116RPM Side Launch: Left 1.2* Carry: 264.8yards Distance of center: 1.0yard left Total distance: 281.5yards Ball speed was on the low end. Regards, Todd All4Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggie Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Gocchin, How much longer will you make us wait for Part 2 of the Testing??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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