My recent fitting...

[charlatan]

So I went in for a second custom fit today to see how things have changed with my swing. Here are some of the stuff I found out.

Turns out my tempo is more smooth than a year ago (yay!) and my swing speed is slightly decreased. Downswing time went from .48 to .55 with my driver speed coming in at an average of 103. Kick velocity on my driver dropped from 2.6 to 1.8, which is quite a bit I guess.

I am 6' 2", 200LBS and wear a 42 Long suit, so my arms are longer than normal by a hair.

Anyway, during the fitting we tested lie. Taped a 7 iron at standard length and was hitting off the toe and thin. Instructor tells me I need to bend more at the knees.. sure thing. He comments how my swing is too upright, and that I am adjusting to the lie of the club, which I always do. When I line up a shot, I have always start by setting the club bottom LEVEL with the ground, and build my position from there. Anyhow, he points out that I should be setting up with the toe off the ground, heel down and drop my hands further by bending at the knees.

Long and short of it is, I did this until I was dead center of the iron and sweep was right through the middle of the bottom of the club. Okay, there's a new swing for me :) My lie becomes, for a 6 iron, 65 degrees! That is almost 4 degrees above standard, and this freaks me out.

Next up is my swing weight. We went through quite a few adjustments, and it seems that my clubs should have some kick, which was very noticeable when he was done tweaking. Here are the results;

Woods: Standard length, shaft weight of 61-69, mid trajectory, medium tip, 6.9 flex and a swing weight of D4!

6 Iron: 38 Length (standard), shaft weight 121-125, high trajectory, soft tip, 5.8 flex , swing weight of D6!!!!

So this leads me to the following questions...

1) Am I being fed numbers that fit a swing that is just messed up? I mean a swing weight of D6... how the heck do you even get an iron head to that weight?

2) Couldn't I make the irons longer and remove some or all of the 4 degrees upright?

3) Will bending a forged iron that much impact performance?

4) Seems to me the swing weight is related to my lack of turning my wrists through at impact... I dunno...

Swing analysis was done at d'Lance golf... not sure if anyone here has had experience with them. They seem like a tight outfit, so this might just be what the MD ordered.

Thanks

Char

Edited June 12, 2008 by charlatan

[BrettSmith]

So I went in for a second custom fit today to see how things have changed with my swing. Here are some of the stuff I found out.

Turns out my tempo is more smooth than a year ago (yay!) and my swing speed is slightly decreased. Downswing time went from .48 to .55 with my driver speed coming in at an average of 103. Kick velocity on my driver dropped from 2.6 to 1.8, which is quite a bit I guess.

I am 6' 2", 200LBS and wear a 42 Long suit, so my arms are longer than normal by a hair.

Anyway, during the fitting we tested lie. Taped a 7 iron at standard length and was hitting off the toe and thin. Instructor tells me I need to bend more at the knees.. sure thing. He comments how my swing is too upright, and that I am adjusting to the lie of the club, which I always do. When I line up a shot, I have always start by setting the club bottom LEVEL with the ground, and build my position from there. Anyhow, he points out that I should be setting up with the toe off the ground, heel down and drop my hands further by bending at the knees.

Long and short of it is, I did this until I was dead center of the iron and sweep was right through the middle of the bottom of the club. Okay, there's a new swing for me :) My lie becomes, for a 6 iron, 65 degrees! That is almost 4 degrees above standard, and this freaks me out.

Next up is my swing weight. We went through quite a few adjustments, and it seems that my clubs should have some kick, which was very noticeable when he was done tweaking. Here are the results;

Woods: Standard length, shaft weight of 61-69, mid trajectory, medium tip, 6.9 flex and a swing weight of D4!

6 Iron: 38 Length (standard), shaft weight 121-125, high trajectory, soft tip, 5.8 flex , swing weight of D6!!!!

So this leads me to the following questions...

1) Am I being fed numbers that fit a swing that is just messed up? I mean a swing weight of D6... how the heck do you even get an iron head to that weight?

2) Couldn't I make the irons longer and remove some or all of the 4 degrees upright?

3) Will bending a forged iron that much impact performance?

4) Seems to me the swing weight is related to my lack of turning my wrists through at impact... I dunno...

Swing analysis was done at d'Lance golf... not sure if anyone here has had experience with them. They seem like a tight outfit, so this might just be what the MD ordered.

Thanks

Char

Char,

I'm 6'6", so I understand what you're dealing with. You are in tall golfer's hell- WELCOME!

You're ship is taking in water, but I've got some feedback that will help you.

First my friend, you will be steep for the rest of your life unless you get arm extensions- like Davis Love, III came out of the womb with. Now, that being said... I don't like the 4deg upright as it is a masking agent for a couple flaws.... kind of like off-set drivers. If you're all in with the game,.. the chase of it- I hate to see you work a couple band-aids like that.

Even sight unseen, you should be with those specs no more than 2up. If you refer to the great one- Mr. Hogan where he speaks of the swing plane relative to body type, your plane WILL ALWAYS BE STEEPER. It's the way your built man.

I think one thing any teacher or swing coach worth his salt would tell you is that all of us need to work on shallowing out. Now here is the problem- you have to double-time it here amigo because of your biomechanic. Essentially> coming in more rotary level with the assembly of the clubhead, hands and arms working more underneath you.

Here is how you can start:

1. Follow the gospel of Jimmy Ballard and create CONNECTION.

Place a headcover, glove, can of beer, whatever underneath the back of your left arm and weld it literally on FRONT of your left chest. This will feel like crap. DO IT.

The reason it will feel like crap is that it is totally restrictive... what this does is eliminate extra moving pieces AND establish the proper orbits.

2. 10x10 Principle

Establish Connection and look for ways to start making moves where the ball would be above your feet. Sidehill lies are fantastic. Do you have access to making swings with the balls above your feet? If so, you can't do this enough... and I mean actually hitting balls off the slope. 10 practice swings for every shot struck. If not, during your range time, hold the club 1' foot above the ball as your address position and start your swing from there. It will help you shallow out your shaft lean through the impact zone. If you want to improve 10x as fast, remember to make the ten reps for every ball you strike in practice.

Now, as the TSG experts will tell you- extra length will get you more effectively upright but you have to be careful as you longer you go, the more unwieldy the stick becomes. Much harder to create center'd flush strikes. Stay away from that turning the wrists thing... seriously go pick up Hogan's FIVE LESSONS ans look at the "training swing"...

Work with what you have there, but like to see you come back from the edge there senor.

Keep me posted,

Brett

[Blader-X]

Just a comment on the swing weight. If the club feels good don't worry about the swing weight. All my clubs hover around a D8 give or take a couple of points and my Epon wedges go E2, E4 and E2. My driver is a D4. To me, they all feel perfect. Remember swing weight is a static measurement, done without the club in motion. If it feels right and produces the results you're after, go with it. If it messes with your head too much or you just can't buy into it, then you may need to work on the swing a little more and get clubs more in line with what you think it should be.

I can't really comment on the 4 degrees upright. I can tell you that I'm a little smaller than you at just over 6'1" and weigh in at 170lbs. My clubs are all 1" over standard length and my lie angles are all about 2 degrees flat for for the irons and 3 degrees for the wedges. My driver and 3-wood are also flat. The reason why my clubs are this way is to eliminate the hook as much as possible and through many different trials, this is the way that I swing the best. In the past I had gone as much as 2 degrees upright to promote the draw. However as I've evolved with my swing I've gone the other way. If you were to measure me using just charts I should play standard clubs and one-half inch shorter than normal. However I know the results I would get from doing that would not be as good as I'm getting now. Not to mention, to be truly fit, one needs to hit the ball. Dynamic measurements are much more important in my opinion than static measurements. Static measurements merely get you a starting point. Dynamic measurements (club in motion) however, should clear up the picutre quite a bit.

The question to ask yourself, is with these new clubs/adjustments do you see better results with your game and do they satisfy you? Or, if not, are you willing to put a lot of time in the fix a swing that you may consider "messed-up". Remember there is no one swing that fits everyone and we're all limited by our own bodies, mannerisms and levels of athletisicm.

Good luck to you and let us know how it goes.

[charlatan]

Char,

I'm 6'6", so I understand what you're dealing with. You are in tall golfer's hell- WELCOME!

You're ship is taking in water, but I've got some feedback that will help you.

Hi Brett. I didn't know you were that tall. I have seen your posts.. thanks so much for your input. BTW, is the site up yet? Ever travel to Denver? :)

First my friend, you will be steep for the rest of your life unless you get arm extensions- like Davis Love, III came out of the womb with. Now, that being said... I don't like the 4deg upright as it is a masking agent for a couple flaws.... kind of like off-set drivers.

That is what I thought.

If you're all in with the game,.. the chase of it- I hate to see you work a couple band-aids like that.

I really am in it for the long haul. I want a good swing, one that feels comfortable and puts the ball where I want it. I am glutton for punishment as I look to purchase some unforgiving irons when I get this bit figured out.

Even sight unseen, you should be with those specs no more than 2up. If you refer to the great one- Mr. Hogan where he speaks of the swing plane relative to body type, your plane WILL ALWAYS BE STEEPER. It's the way your built man.

By steeper do you mean my swings will be more toward straight up on the start of the backswing?, or does steep mean I will have more of a rotation closer to parallel to the ground?

I think one thing any teacher or swing coach worth his salt would tell you is that all of us need to work on shallowing out. Now here is the problem- you have to double-time it here amigo because of your biomechanic. Essentially> coming in more rotary level with the assembly of the clubhead, hands and arms working more underneath you.

So it's like I wind up over the ball more than usual, while maintaining the weight distribution on the balls of my feet?

Here is how you can start:

1. Follow the gospel of Jimmy Ballard and create CONNECTION.

Place a headcover, glove, can of beer, whatever underneath the back of your left arm and weld it literally on FRONT of your left chest. This will feel like crap. DO IT.

The reason it will feel like crap is that it is totally restrictive... what this does is eliminate extra moving pieces AND establish the proper orbits.

2. 10x10 Principle

Establish Connection and look for ways to start making moves where the ball would be above your feet. Sidehill lies are fantastic. Do you have access to making swings with the balls above your feet? If so, you can't do this enough... and I mean actually hitting balls off the slope. 10 practice swings for every shot struck. If not, during your range time, hold the club 1' foot above the ball as your address position and start your swing from there. It will help you shallow out your shaft lean through the impact zone. If you want to improve 10x as fast, remember to make the ten reps for every ball you strike in practice.

Thanks for the tips... I have a spare set (standard setup) that I am going to practice with while I shop...

Now, as the TSG experts will tell you- extra length will get you more effectively upright but you have to be careful as you longer you go, the more unwieldy the stick becomes. Much harder to create center'd flush strikes. Stay away from that turning the wrists thing... seriously go pick up Hogan's FIVE LESSONS ans look at the "training swing"...

Work with what you have there, but like to see you come back from the edge there senor.

Keep me posted,

Brett

Will do, thanks for the tips.

Brett, would you recommend a player work out the mechanics of the swing before getting fitted, or should you have the correct irons in your hands before working on mechanics?

P.S. I found another place that has a great rep for doing excellent club fittings, so I may go there and get another.

[charlatan]

Just a comment on the swing weight. If the club feels good don't worry about the swing weight. All my clubs hover around a D8 give or take a couple of points and my Epon wedges go E2, E4 and E2. My driver is a D4. To me, they all feel perfect. Remember swing weight is a static measurement, done without the club in motion. If it feels right and produces the results you're after, go with it. If it messes with your head too much or you just can't buy into it, then you may need to work on the swing a little more and get clubs more in line with what you think it should be.

I can't really comment on the 4 degrees upright. I can tell you that I'm a little smaller than you at just over 6'1" and weigh in at 170lbs. My clubs are all 1" over standard length and my lie angles are all about 2 degrees flat for for the irons and 3 degrees for the wedges. My driver and 3-wood are also flat. The reason why my clubs are this way is to eliminate the hook as much as possible and through many different trials, this is the way that I swing the best. In the past I had gone as much as 2 degrees upright to promote the draw. However as I've evolved with my swing I've gone the other way. If you were to measure me using just charts I should play standard clubs and one-half inch shorter than normal. However I know the results I would get from doing that would not be as good as I'm getting now. Not to mention, to be truly fit, one needs to hit the ball. Dynamic measurements are much more important in my opinion than static measurements. Static measurements merely get you a starting point. Dynamic measurements (club in motion) however, should clear up the picutre quite a bit.

The question to ask yourself, is with these new clubs/adjustments do you see better results with your game and do they satisfy you? Or, if not, are you willing to put a lot of time in the fix a swing that you may consider "messed-up". Remember there is no one swing that fits everyone and we're all limited by our own bodies, mannerisms and levels of athletisicm.

Good luck to you and let us know how it goes.

Thanks Blader-X

That is very helpful information. It was very interesting to me that I was hitting everything outside, off the toe with my normal swing on a standard length shaft. I am making good contact, but outside of the true strike zone. Toe tape was gone, heel tape was untouched.

I haven't gamed with anything yet. The set I just sold was a set of MP-60's with DG S300's, and since I've been working on my mechanics, I've been a little inconsistent to start with. They were standard length and I seemed to pull more than usual.

BTW, I have my eye on some of your favorite irons... it's between them and some Miuras :)

Thanks

Mike

[charlatan]

Brett, I found a site with some illustrations here.

I am going to pick up the book tomorrow.

I think I understand now what you mean by steeper. Because I am tall, I will tend to lean down more to strike the ball, leading to more of an upright swing. But, I need to keep it shallow, like when hitting from an uphill lie. I will find some place that offers me the kind of setup you describe.

[BrettSmith]

Hi Brett. I didn't know you were that tall. I have seen your posts.. thanks so much for your input. BTW, is the site up yet? Ever travel to Denver? :)

That is what I thought.

I really am in it for the long haul. I want a good swing, one that feels comfortable and puts the ball where I want it. I am glutton for punishment as I look to purchase some unforgiving irons when I get this bit figured out.

By steeper do you mean my swings will be more toward straight up on the start of the backswing?, or does steep mean I will have more of a rotation closer to parallel to the ground?

So it's like I wind up over the ball more than usual, while maintaining the weight distribution on the balls of my feet?

Thanks for the tips... I have a spare set (standard setup) that I am going to practice with while I shop...

Will do, thanks for the tips.

Brett, would you recommend a player work out the mechanics of the swing before getting fitted, or should you have the correct irons in your hands before working on mechanics?

P.S. I found another place that has a great rep for doing excellent club fittings, so I may go there and get another.

Thanks for your interest with the site. Currently loading it with content and working out the bugs,... but getting close. Will keep you posted.

Maybe this image will help- picture rairoad tracks directly in front of you. Because of your biomechanic you will always be working the club closer to the inside rail, whereas somebody shorter or with longer arms as well would be working closer to the outer rail. Now here is the mindfreak- you need to feel like your working more to the outer rail, but in working reality, you will never get there. I highly recommend you pick up the bible: Mr. Hogan's 5 Lessons, so you can refer to the taller plane image and the previously mentioned training swing. When you get the book- really grind away at working that training swing he depicts there with a 7 or 8i- get the sense of how far you can sling it with just working that limited move. This will also integrate your question of the greater rotation.

Also pick up some balance disks so you can train this move more effectively at home and start creating ground-up torque with the same training move. These disks are absolutely critical in establishing one of more core building blocks for "The New Move"- which we are going to unveil on my site. They create GRIPTION- the ground-up combo of torque and traction to be ignited from your insteps and rotational core.

Also pick up NICK BRADLEY'S killer book "The 7 Laws".. Nick works with Justin Rose and several other TOUR players, this will further help with the proper imagery and training for you sight unseen. As I have spoken with Nick, this is prob the best instructional book I've seen in 10 years.

One of the things I'm really excited about with my site is that it will incorporate different mediums for the serious golfer to integrate higher levels of understanding of technology with equipment, training of technique, physical training, utilization of the mind and body for increased performance. Part of this cutting edge exploration will be shooting videos with other top teachers like Nick who bring unique aspects to heightened performance- people that are out there breaking barriers.

Absolutely work that training move in 5 Lessons like a speedbag- start with chips... lots of them. Get good with the body controlling the hands and arms with that motion before making bigger swings. Don't make any moves for a couple weeks that are bigger than a pitch shot. Focus on PERFECTING CONTACT. It's not fun, but that's the discipline. For example, strike 6 perfect chips before you allow yourself to hit a pitch. Then strike 6 perfect pitches before you allow yourself to let the hands and club get to the waist.

Keep us posted.

Brett

[charlatan]

Brett,

Thanks so much for the tips. I have read 5 lessons (what an awesome book) and am working diligently on his tips. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be a wholly different swing / grip than what I am used to.

I have already seen, from practice swings without a ball in front, that the clubs I am using might be a little too short. After much consternation, I have decided (based on input from others and the ping website) that I am most likely going to get clubs measuring 1/2 and 2" longer (equivalent of 4 up). I notice that with stock length / lie, my arms are vertical with the 4 iron. I can also see that my sweep on a swing is not sweeping the ground at the impact moment unless I really drop down... I would be splitting a lot of covers as is.

Your site sounds amazing... can't wait to see it.

[BrettSmith]

Brett,

Thanks so much for the tips. I have read 5 lessons (what an awesome book) and am working diligently on his tips. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be a wholly different swing / grip than what I am used to.

I have already seen, from practice swings without a ball in front, that the clubs I am using might be a little too short. After much consternation, I have decided (based on input from others and the ping website) that I am most likely going to get clubs measuring 1/2 and 2" longer (equivalent of 4 up). I notice that with stock length / lie, my arms are vertical with the 4 iron. I can also see that my sweep on a swing is not sweeping the ground at the impact moment unless I really drop down... I would be splitting a lot of covers as is.

Your site sounds amazing... can't wait to see it.

one more thing there....in regards to the length-- what is your measurement to the ground from the cuffs of your wrists?

Brett

[charlatan]

one more thing there....in regards to the length-- what is your measurement to the ground from the cuffs of your wrists?

Brett

Magic number is 37".

FYI, I have been practicing for 5 days straight now and things are really coming together. I can confirm that with the clubs I am playing right now (stock length, lie) that I am hitting very thin and way off the toe of the club. At the point of contact in practice swings (new swing :)) I can easily see the heel up, toe down at what looks to be 4* at least.

[BrettSmith]

Magic number is 37".

FYI, I have been practicing for 5 days straight now and things are really coming together. I can confirm that with the clubs I am playing right now (stock length, lie) that I am hitting very thin and way off the toe of the club. At the point of contact in practice swings (new swing :)) I can easily see the heel up, toe down at what looks to be 4* at least.

ok- that's key. like to see you consider +1/2" and 2deg up for starters. work harder to shallow out a little bit. Char, take a look at where Mr. Hogan talks about the elbow and hip orbits too....preserve the orbits!

Brett

[charlatan]

ok- that's key. like to see you consider +1/2" and 2deg up for starters. work harder to shallow out a little bit. Char, take a look at where Mr. Hogan talks about the elbow and hip orbits too....preserve the orbits!

Brett

Will do, thanks Brett.

Mike