AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 If a certaing grade of steel is forged by each forging house - using the same metal - what makes one better than the other. Is it the overlay ? Chrome/ Nickel/ Copper/ Mix ? Maybe I do not understand the process fully. Especially why Miura is the best. If I have copper unerlays done on my irons will I notice a difference in feell ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 If a certaing grade of steel is forged by each forging house - using the same metal - what makes one better than the other.Is it the overlay ? Chrome/ Nickel/ Copper/ Mix ? Maybe I do not understanfd the process fully. Especially why Miura is the best. If I have copper unerlays done on my irons will I notice a difference in feell ? Muria is the best because they have a very limited run size, so the irons that come from there are usually not cheap and people then think that means they're better. Muria to Endo forging wise... no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 If a certaing grade of steel is forged by each forging house - using the same metal - what makes one better than the other.Is it the overlay ? Chrome/ Nickel/ Copper/ Mix ? Maybe I do not understanfd the process fully. Especially why Miura is the best. If I have copper unerlays done on my irons will I notice a difference in feell ? Muria is the best because they have a very limited run size, so the irons that come from there are usually not cheap and people then think that means they're better. Muria to Endo forging wise... no difference. O.K. what makes the difference in forging Main Alloy, mixture of coatings or magic and hype? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 If a certaing grade of steel is forged by each forging house - using the same metal - what makes one better than the other.Is it the overlay ? Chrome/ Nickel/ Copper/ Mix ? Maybe I do not understanfd the process fully. Especially why Miura is the best. If I have copper unerlays done on my irons will I notice a difference in feell ? Muria is the best because they have a very limited run size, so the irons that come from there are usually not cheap and people then think that means they're better. Muria to Endo forging wise... no difference. O.K. what makes the difference in forging Main Alloy, mixture of coatings or magic and hype? You have now officially lost me :( I do believe that Joe has stated in another post here somewhere that copper layer by it's self will not give the soft feeling . That there has to be a nickle layer also applied with the copper to get the soft feeling . Now if it is before or after I don't recall . Sorry :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 If a certaing grade of steel is forged by each forging house - using the same metal - what makes one better than the other.Is it the overlay ? Chrome/ Nickel/ Copper/ Mix ? Maybe I do not understanfd the process fully. Especially why Miura is the best. If I have copper unerlays done on my irons will I notice a difference in feell ? Muria is the best because they have a very limited run size, so the irons that come from there are usually not cheap and people then think that means they're better. Muria to Endo forging wise... no difference. O.K. what makes the difference in forging Main Alloy, mixture of coatings or magic and hype? You have now officially lost me :( I do believe that Joe has stated in another post here somewhere that copper layer by it's self will not give the soft feeling . That there has to be a nickle layer also applied with the copper to get the soft feeling . Now if it is before or after I don't recall . Sorry :) yeah its something like that... I remember the guy from TourSpec Refinishing saying that a Copper underlay with cause the chrome to wear harder too. We are all losing site of one thing... what is "feel"? what causes something to be "soft" According to Scotty Cameron feel is our brain decoding the sound of impact... kinda like how taste and smell are related... so if this is true then I would say shape, cavity design, and shaft have more to do with "feel" than the metal or the plating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Guys - I am just interested in the process - but you bring up a good point regarding Scotty Putter . There is no nickel or copper coating - on the putter or you would not see the mill marks. I am just guessing but think that the copper/nickel is and after process - I would just be intrested in knowing the entire process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Guys - I am just interested in the process - but you bring up a good point regarding Scotty Putter . There is no nickel or copper coating - on the putter or you would not see the mill marks.I am just guessing but think that the copper/nickel is and after process - I would just be intrested in knowing the entire process. AK , this link might explain the process of the copper/nickle that you describe above . Check it out and if it's not what you are looking for , then am at a loss . Sorry :oops: http://www.tourspecgolf.com/modules.php?na...ght=iron+finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Mike ... thanks for the link. So it is stated that copper underlays will play softer, but nickel is more durable. Anyone have problems with a copper underlay - like what the Iron Factory offers. Thanks for evreyone's patience and help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyce89976 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. the .5g tolerance is post tooling I assume... its still pretty impressive either way... excessive? yes but a good marketing tool. anyhow I don't think Muria is anymore special than any other forger. I am willing to put my entire bag on the line if someone can tell a Muria 300 from an Endo just from hitting. As I said before I believe feel comes from sound... resonance... and anyone who has every struck a bell can tell you size and shape have more to do with sound than who made it. If you don't like Titleist irons its probably because of the design not because of where they are made. I think its cool to know who does the forging but to let it dictate your club choice is foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. Having owned only one set of Titleist irons - I can still agree -especially as it relates to tolerence. My mizuno proII's were geat - but my TM's for forged in China are O.K. AS to nickel on the face - this makes sense since that is the one area that takes a good amount of abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyce89976 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. the .5g tolerance is post tooling I assume... its still pretty impressive either way... excessive? yes but a good marketing tool. anyhow I don't think Muria is anymore special than any other forger. I am willing to put my entire bag on the line if someone can tell a Muria 300 from an Endo just from hitting. As I said before I believe feel comes from sound... resonance... and anyone who has every struck a bell can tell you size and shape have more to do with sound than who made it. If you don't like Titleist irons its probably because of the design not because of where they are made. I think its cool to know who does the forging but to let it dictate your club choice is foolish. The .5 gram tolerance is for a finished head, and when you consider the inexactness of the plating process it's even more impressive. I'll take you up on that challenge, but I'm not putting my CB1005s on the line! :lol: Now, if you had prefaced that with "just from hitting... with earplugs" I'm not sure 99% of us could tell the difference. I agree with you, feel is based primarily on sound... ...so I guess my Miura's sound softer than any other brand! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. the .5g tolerance is post tooling I assume... its still pretty impressive either way... excessive? yes but a good marketing tool. anyhow I don't think Muria is anymore special than any other forger. I am willing to put my entire bag on the line if someone can tell a Muria 300 from an Endo just from hitting. As I said before I believe feel comes from sound... resonance... and anyone who has every struck a bell can tell you size and shape have more to do with sound than who made it. If you don't like Titleist irons its probably because of the design not because of where they are made. I think its cool to know who does the forging but to let it dictate your club choice is foolish. The .5 gram tolerance is for a finished head, and when you consider the inexactness of the plating process it's even more impressive. I'll take you up on that challenge, but I'm not putting my CB1005s on the line! :lol: Now, if you had prefaced that with "just from hitting... with earplugs" I'm not sure 99% of us could tell the difference. I agree with you, feel is based primarily on sound... ...so I guess my Miura's sound softer than any other brand! :wink: well if your not willing to put your clubs on the line where is the fun... I have hit the Muria 300's and mine side by side and I could hear no difference or feel no difference. The real test is to hit a bunch of the same clubs with different shafts... Rifles tend to make a club feel softer than DGs. I bet Ak has some of the softest feeling 300's around with that wooden dowl in the shaft... I bet that has a much greater effect than the forger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. the .5g tolerance is post tooling I assume... its still pretty impressive either way... excessive? yes but a good marketing tool. anyhow I don't think Muria is anymore special than any other forger. I am willing to put my entire bag on the line if someone can tell a Muria 300 from an Endo just from hitting. As I said before I believe feel comes from sound... resonance... and anyone who has every struck a bell can tell you size and shape have more to do with sound than who made it. If you don't like Titleist irons its probably because of the design not because of where they are made. I think its cool to know who does the forging but to let it dictate your club choice is foolish. The .5 gram tolerance is for a finished head, and when you consider the inexactness of the plating process it's even more impressive. I'll take you up on that challenge, but I'm not putting my CB1005s on the line! :lol: Now, if you had prefaced that with "just from hitting... with earplugs" I'm not sure 99% of us could tell the difference. I agree with you, feel is based primarily on sound... ...so I guess my Miura's sound softer than any other brand! :wink: well if your not willing to put your clubs on the line where is the fun... I have hit the Muria 300's and mine side by side and I could hear no difference or feel no difference. The real test is to hit a bunch of the same clubs with different shafts... Rifles tend to make a club feel softer than DGs. I bet Ak has some of the softest feeling 300's around with that wooden dowl in the shaft... I bet that has a much greater effect than the forger. Pete- very different than the DGs300, very good feel - sound - almost weird. You can do the same for the cost of $8 and new grips. Go to the hardware store and buy a bag of 5/16 wooden dowels (1.99), a steel rod long enough to jam down the shaft (2.00) and some two part epoxy. Drill a small hole in the dowels - cover with epoxy , jam it down the shaft with the steel rod, let sit for a few hours , regrip the clubs and you are done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyce89976 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ak - how long did you cut the dowels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 so does it feel softer ... please describe as best possible with out going poetic on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyce89976 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I don't know much about Endo forgings except that I hate the feel of Titty irons. But I can tell you that Miura makes a very special forging... but what makes them different than most is their tolerances. While most foundries will hold to a +/- 2g tolerance, Miura holds to a +/- .5g tolerance... most of which is due to their unique forging process. One misconception about Miura is that they us a copper underlay. Not true... they use a mixture (a blend) of copper and nickel everywhere but the face (where the scoring lines are) which has a pure nickel underlay. the .5g tolerance is post tooling I assume... its still pretty impressive either way... excessive? yes but a good marketing tool. anyhow I don't think Muria is anymore special than any other forger. I am willing to put my entire bag on the line if someone can tell a Muria 300 from an Endo just from hitting. As I said before I believe feel comes from sound... resonance... and anyone who has every struck a bell can tell you size and shape have more to do with sound than who made it. If you don't like Titleist irons its probably because of the design not because of where they are made. I think its cool to know who does the forging but to let it dictate your club choice is foolish. The .5 gram tolerance is for a finished head, and when you consider the inexactness of the plating process it's even more impressive. I'll take you up on that challenge, but I'm not putting my CB1005s on the line! :lol: Now, if you had prefaced that with "just from hitting... with earplugs" I'm not sure 99% of us could tell the difference. I agree with you, feel is based primarily on sound... ...so I guess my Miura's sound softer than any other brand! :wink: well if your not willing to put your clubs on the line where is the fun... I have hit the Muria 300's and mine side by side and I could hear no difference or feel no difference. The real test is to hit a bunch of the same clubs with different shafts... Rifles tend to make a club feel softer than DGs. I bet Ak has some of the softest feeling 300's around with that wooden dowl in the shaft... I bet that has a much greater effect than the forger. Hell, man, I just got my bag set... I ain't parting with it for nothing! :P Ah, see we differ on the Rifle vs. DG thing too. I think DGs feel softer than Rifles... the Rifles feel a little harsh or brittle to me. I think it's because I'm very aware of the kick I get with DGs, where I don't feel that as much with Rifles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ak - how long did you cut the dowels? If I remeber correctly they came at 1.5"( bought at Sears hardware pack of 33), and I just left them that way - I figured length would not be a problem and the weight is minimal before epoxy. One thing though - cover them in alot of epoxy. I have been hitting them off matts with no problems - but my PW has a rattle and I have been to lazy to take it apart. All other clubs are solid. Since I had the heads off I followed Joe's instructions and putt the dowels in first and left enough room for a 6 gram tip weight. I wanted to achieve a D4 swing weight in irons 3-9 and D6 in my wedge. So after the dowels dried I swing weighted each club - triming the tip weights to get each club where I wanted. Go to the clubmakers section and Joe responded to my post and alos put up another link. For the $$$$ this is by far the easiest and best improvment you can do to your irons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 link for dowel discussion http://www.tourspecgolf.com/modules.php?na...iewtopic&t=2521 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyce89976 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Thanks for the info, Ak. Also, how do you like the NV Proto in your TP? What differences have you noticed over the stock 757? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 so does it feel softer ... please describe as best possible with out going poetic on us. Was this for me ? I hope Al does not read this. If so Roses are red violets are blue Yes my TM's feel softer with dowels too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Thanks for the info, Ak. Also, how do you like the NV Proto in your TP? What differences have you noticed over the stock 757? Keep in mind it is still winter here - but after I tipped it just alittle bit more it is great. 3/4 in total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcap26 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 so does it feel softer ... please describe as best possible with out going poetic on us. I don't know about you but I would always prefer IT to feel a little harder. I do think there is a little blue pill for this :twisted: . I like the poem AK. The info being passed along in this thread is great. One of my first posts on here was about getting some irons rechromed and it had some great info about the copper/nickel underlay and why it was so important. I just wish it did not get wipped out when the site was down for a few days. I personally could not tell the difference between the Mizuno II's and my 300's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 so does it feel softer ... please describe as best possible with out going poetic on us. I don't know about you but I would always prefer IT to feel a little harder. I do think there is a pill for this :twisted: . I like the poem AK. The info being passed along in this thread is great. One of my first posts on here was about getting some irons rechromed and it had some great info about the copper/nickel underlay and why it was so important. I just wish it did not get wipped out when the site was down for a few days. I personally could not tell the difference between the Mizuno II's and my 300's. And I was hoping Al's alter-ego would show up - work is a bit boring today and I need a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillypete Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 so does it feel softer ... please describe as best possible with out going poetic on us. Was this for me ? I hope Al does not read this. If so Roses are red violets are blue Yes my TM's feel softer with dowels too. oh no... stick to golf buddy stick to golf!!! :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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