Ara selai

@stevo. I hit irons pretty well and prefer hitting blades at the minute. They're fun to shape shots with, and the feel is unbeatable. Short game is my Waterloo. I think I'll be around 10 once I clean up my wedges and putting. It's usually one or the other that lets me down, on average once a hole with a lazy swing. An extra chip from the fringe or an extra putt. The rest is pretty solid, although i plonk a wayward drive or turf a shot frequently enough that I doubt I'll ever see scratch. I'm picking up a set of SB01s next week. @gocchin. I'll make the corrections you suggested when I'm back at my computer with the original files (next week). No idea where to find COG data. Any suggestions? I also hope to add a few clubs next week. Can someone post dimensional data for Epon AF-Tours or Yamaha Tours? Or anything else they'd like to see? Happy to add files as the data get accumulated. If measurements wait for me, it'll be whenever I hit something new. Thanks for the encouraging words, guys. Glad to contribute.

Thanks, Stew. I reckon it could be improved if I could display the actual sweet spot (COG) as well as the cetered strike point for each club.

In case you're curious how Miura blades compare in terms of head size, I put together the attached images for reference, compared to a golf ball. It's a pretty smooth transition from one to the other in terms of size. The Miuraism SB01 and 1957 LE blades are identical in size. The MB-5003 and Tournament Blades are identical in size; proportionately wider and taller than the SB01/1957 LE; slightly wider and shorter than the SB02. The SB02 is the tallest, but is a little less wide than the TB/5003. Note that the maximum difference (SB02-->SB01) in height is 7 mm (a little more than a quarter-inch), and the maximum difference in total length (5003-->SB01) is 3.5 mm (about one-eigth of an inch). So the differences are pretty fine. Having hit them side by side, I'd say, though, that the SB01/1957 is noticeably smaller than the others. It has to do with the way the ball looks snuggled up against so small a head. Also note that the location of the center strike point shifts outward with increasing clubhead size. I have no idea how this relates to the actual sweet spot of each club, but the total L-R difference of the three strike points is less than 3 millimeters. How closely can you groove your swing??? Final bit: I think it's interesting how the grooves cover far less of the club toe on the SB01/1957 and 5003/TB than they do on the SB02. Again, no idea what it means, but it's one of the subtle things that really differentiates these clubs besides simple dimensions. Anyway, I'd be interested in any comments....

@ Vegaman. Aaargh! Stop! Next we'll be on about Miura's spin-welded hosels, or who does or doesn't own their own foundry. Just let people comment on the Kenmochis, please. Don't hijack the thread! It's an interesting question (perhaps), but start a new thread. I'm sure there will be a lively discussion. @gocchin. That's how I thought you meant it. Everyone's got a different set of criteria. Thanks for heading this one off.

As per the Topic Description, does anyone have informed opinions on the overall quality of Kenmochi's forgings? I did a quick seach of the forum, and there appears to be a bit of back-and-forth about quality and "spinniness". I'm particularly interested in finding out where they stack in terms of softness and attention to spec. Thanks for any help.

Here are some photos. The Hogans have red stripes on the hosels; the Miuras have gold. Hogans are chunkier on the topline, to be sure. Otherwise, very similar....

@supo. Just found (by accident) your original post about the Hogans you hit. We're talking about very different clubs here. Mine are spalding-era Apex Plus irons. I got the date wrong, though. They were made from 1999-2001, and they WERE forged by Endo, according to the designer of the clubs (go to http://www.sheetsdesigngroup.com/past.html and scroll down to "Hogan" and read his comments on the design of this club and the 1999 Apex). I'll take some photos of them next to my Miura CB-2006s. It's uncanny how similar they are. I stand by my original comments about their feel. Would still like to try them with decent shafts, and compare to newer Endo offerings like the AF-302. A project for another day...if I can find some cheap NS Pros or similar to shaft them with. While on the topic of older non-JDM irons, I was wondering if anyone's tried vintage, classic musclebacks like the 1969 Wilson Staff "bulletbacks", 1971 "buttonbacks", or Macgregor Nicklaus Muirfields? They look like they'd be fun to try, and they're relatively cheap on the 'bay. Any particular suggestions out there of ones to look for, based on past experience? I might get a few singles and give them a whack.

No no's got an opinion? You wedge junkies are letting me down!

@edgolf. Yes, Indonesia grows on you, that's for sure! (it's the other stuff that grows on you here that I worry about.) So many places to go and so much to see and do! I'm really enjoying it. Great people and amazing country.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmiura%2Bgiken%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26tbo%3Dd%26prmd%3Divnsfd&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&twu=1&u=http://www.miuragiken.com/products/mg/wmf-06/index.html&usg=ALkJrhiS3mHMMsaQEDpqyU1yIOxrq-Sp9A Released on 06 November, according to the website. Looks weird. Hopefully the performance makes up for it.

Excellent, thorough review. Those are glorious looking clubs. I've hit these a couple of times and just love the way they feel and look. Nice, compact head, and great feel. I'm very jealous.

Wow, sorry to hear that. Not my experience at all. Were the ones you tried originals, Spalding-era, or Callaway-era? My 98s were nice and soft-firm on the sweet spot. Good feel. Not like a certain set of Miuraisms (!), but more than the match of the Mizuno EZ Comps and Ping i2s I alternated with at the time. How times have changed! I still might try a reshaft to see how they go, but will note that I've been forewarned!

Not much to go on, I know. good luck with your search!

I'd like to hear what jpsfreak has to say. He's much more knowledgeable than I am about the 9003. I only hit about 50-75 balls with it, with really disappointing results. My results may have been anomalous. To be honest, there were so many clubs that fit my swing better that I spent more time trialling the other ones than sorting out the 9003. (Of note, I also hit the CB-501 much more poorly than I'd hoped, and that was the one I had highest hopes for! Would love to give that one another whack!) As far as "control" goes (now that you've clarified what you're after in that category), here's my 2 cents. I found it VERY difficult to get in a sweet spot groove with the 9003s. I was heeling, toeing, puring, then heeling and toeing again. Having tried a good many clubs since, I've found that that performance characteristic is in fact my general experience with almost all deeper cavity backs (Miura PP-9003, CB-3003, & CB-301; Fourteen TC-1000, 910, & 710; OnOff 510; Tourstage; etc.). You ought to figure out if the same is true for you, before committing to the PPs. The exception to the rule of deep cavities, in my case and for whatever reason, is Yamaha. I find their deep cavity models very easy to hit very consistently. As a rule, I think Endo forgings (in Yamahas and Epons) are just plain easier to "control", as we've defined it here. I've described the Epons before as 'effortless', and that really sounds like what your after. If you can get past the sound of the pocket cavity (I hate it), the 501s or 502s are probably exactly what you're looking for. You should also try a 2012 Yamaha X or Z when they come out in a couple of weeks. Compare those three and an Epon 702 to the PP-9003. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The other way to go is to try a more minimal cavity. I've found that's what works best for me. They make you hunt down the sweet spot, and require a more disciplined, consistent swing than the ones above, but once you learn how to hit them consistently, they're brilliant. They're less forgiving, but have more feedback as a trade-off. Examples that I particularly like from the brands I've mentioned include Miura CB-2006 (which I play), Epon 301, and Yamaha V Tour. And of course, my all-time favorite club, the Miuraism SC-01 (does anyone have some of these they want to sell?). Of course, once you're there, it's only a short step, as I've just found out, into the world of blades...and then it gets REALLY fun!

Thanks for the reply. Makes more sense it was FW, although there were lots of people arguing for Endo. Sounded like an odd choice, given their history. What did you think of the clubs?

Funny you mention this, Stew, as I have been debating whether to try my 1998 Hogan Apex Plus irons with a JDM iron shaft. I loved those clubs, but never hit them really well with the stock shafts. There's some debate as to whether they were forged by Endo in Japan or in Fort Worth; in any case, they're smooth as, but the stock shafts just suck. Right now, they're sitting around gathering moss, so your reshafting project has given me inspiration. Any definitive knowledge from the JDM pros here as to the origin of the forgings?

Whoa there, cowboy! It's definitely not "inferior"... it's made by Miura! By "better", I meant that I've found there are many, many clubs that offer more forgiveness, longer flights, more control, and/or are softer than the PPs. Have a look at this thread for more detail on the 9003s. It's quite dated, and I ought to do a revision based on several months of ho'ing demoing a big range of irons. anyway, I hope it's got some of what you're after. Quick summary: If your primary criteria right now are forgiveness and softness (i.e., a classic Game Improvement club), go Epon 701 or 702 or 2012 Yamaha Z. If you're after a club that will help you learn to get better, try upgrading to a Miura or Miura Giken CB-series, Yamaha X-series, or the Epon 501/502. As far as your criteria go... Forgiveness: If you're thinking about the PP range, I assume this is very important. But consider that you'll sacrifice feedback ... and an important part of the learning curve. As a rule of thumb, the bigger the cavity, the more forgiveness. However, as far as the clubs that have been mentioned go, the Epon 702 or Yamaha D have forgiveness in spades. There really is no other choice, IMO. Daylight to next CB contenders (including PP 9003). Length: This is a rubbish metric. Get a set of clubs you like, learn how far you hit them, and club up or down depending on how they're lofted. For instance, Yamahas tend to be very aggressively lofted: a Yammie 7i will have a loft - and flight - much more similar to my Miura 6i. Suggest you check the lofts if this is an issue for you. My only warning is that if you try to compare by club # only, you'll be very misled! Control: Not sure what you mean, but I'd say the closer you get to a blade, the more control you get. Please explain what you're after. Do you mean ability to shape? That's not generally something CB players spend a lot of time trying to do. Or perhaps you mean something like how frequently you get pure shots; that is, how easy you perceive it is to "control" the club head into position to hit a straight shot. In practice, ability to square the clubface will be largely a function of your swing mechanics relative to your club+shaft weight, and is tough to rate in a head. It's something that comes with practice. Overall, I think this is the category you've listed where Miura might edge out Epon or Yamaha. But many others would disagree. Softness: I prefer Miura's "cold butter" feel to Epon's "warm butter" feel. But if it's actually softness you're after, go Epon. Feel: You don't mention it. Do you care? This is more important to me than softness. Miura, baby. Oh yeah. Feedback: You don't mention it. Do you care? I do. A lot. Minimize the cavity as much as possible. Later this weekend, I'll try to summarize my thoughts in a more coherent and quantitative, club-by-club manner.

@jpsfreak: I have to agree with Supo. Which shaft is going to depend on your swing and how you want it to work with the club head. I've got a buddy who absolutely swears by graphite, but he would be the first to tell you to try to optimize shaft weight, stiffness, and balance to your swing. @golfnologist: I reviewed the PP9003s a while back. In my opinion, there are definitely many better cavity backs out there. Try Epon 701s or Yamahas if you want a lot of forgiveness and really easy-to-use clubs. On the other hand, if you're looking for as little cavity as possible, consider Miura CB-2006s, which are great, great clubs. Go here (miura giken website) and click on "concept of head" and "another angle". http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.miuragiken.com/&ei=0aG7TrPpCoLrrQeBlsjABg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmiura%2Bgiken%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd At the same website, you get this for the PP9003: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.miuragiken.com/&ei=0aG7TrPpCoLrrQeBlsjABg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmiura%2Bgiken%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd

@sathundon: If I had to toss away my entire kit today and start again, the clubs I'd miss most, in decreasing order, would be: my putter, my 5W, my 58* wedge. I think the Tour VS feel and technology is honestly unbeatable in fairway woods. But you've got to try it, as it's not a club for everyone. Very small, very surgical head. Not at all ideal for anyone who wants a big face behind the ball. Don't worry, the TRC (at least the utes I use) are bombers, too. The design and shape are classic and understated, and they get serious meat behind the ball. In fact, come to think of it, my two most memorable shots in the last month or so have been with the 4-ute. A 190-yard fairway bunker shot to within feet of the pin; and a 195-yard laser, over trees, across a water hazard, andcutting off a dogleg for a birdie putt opportunity. My caddie was very complementary for the rest of the day after that shot. She'd wanted me to lay up. @ant: It was the new 455cc SFD driver I tried (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.royalcollection.co.jp/&ei=3Z27Tr2iIo7orQforvGqBg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Droyal%2Bcollection%2Bgolf%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26biw%3D1391%26bih%3D1017%26prmd%3Dimvns). Very, very disappointed. Now that you've brought the VS Tour to my attention, I'm going to find one to demo!! Per my previous paragraph, if it's at all comparable with the FW, it might find a way to displace my Epon 101. cool that it's smaller. Wish, like you, it was sub-400.

@ Chanaa. You might be surprised by the AF Tours. I'm not a blade player, but I preferred them by a good margin to the 302s. So did a buddy, who is a confirmed and unrepentent GI cavity back player (Yamahas) and wouldn't normally rave about a blade. We both agreed the AF Tour is something really special. But let's not hijack the OP, which was talking about a very different set of clubs, for a very different game.

Can't speak for the Yonex, as no one I've found in JKT stocks any of their clubs to demo. Am still hunting though! Haven't tried the Bridgestone model you mention. Of the other two (and I assume you mean YAMAHA Inpres X D Forged, not Tourstage? If so, you might want to edit your OP!), I'd say the Yamaha is more forgiving than the Epon. Their irons are a benchmark in that regard. That said, the Epon 501s are ultra-forgiving and a great combination of forgiveness and playability. They shouldn't be discounted. BUT... it's important to note that the Epon 701s are EVEN MORE forgiving than the 501s. If your primary criterion is forgiveness, you should drop the 501s and add the 701s. Also, there are more forgiving Yamahas than the 2011 X D. Two of my buddies play the 2010 Inpres X model, and they swear by them. They have a deeper cavity and wider sole than the 2011 models, which should equal greater forgiveness.

I've posted my thoughts on the CB2006 previously. They are excellent, all business CBs. Firm, solid, and pure. An unsung hero in the Miura range. It doesn't bother me that the style is a few years old - they still look at feel better than >90% of the newer CBs. And perform that way as well! For an aggressive CB, they're hard to beat. I still prefer them to the Epon 502s and 702s, which I hit again last night (see below). The M501s have been very well characterized by previous posters in this thread; they are a bit more demanding than the 2006s and strike me as a great club for blade players looking for a CB. They look great and feel great on pure shots, but they are more blade like in terms of punishment on mis**ts. Which is fine, given the player Miura is catering to with this club. When I was looking at new clubs 6 months ago, these were the ones I wanted to hit well, but couldn't. I'd like to try them again! The Epon x02s are very different beasts to either Miura, as has been described umpteen times. I had a chance to hit the Epon range again last night (AF Tours, 302, 502, and 702). They have very similar "Sui generis" aspects that make them the crowd favorites they are: soft and giving as warm butter (where a Miura is more like chilled butter - still soft, same level of tastiness, but firmer). My favorite thing about all the Epons is their amazing ability to get the ball up and away so ridiculously easily. In this regard, their only real competition, a good ways back though, is Yamaha. I noticed the first time I hit the them, and again last night, that the Epon range gets MUCH better (for my game anyway) at the Tour/302 end of the spectrum. The 702 was good at what it does, but just not what I like; still hate the sound and it is almost too soft. The 502 was like a Yamaha D or V Steel on steroids. The 302 was fantastic, perhaps a hair behind the Yamaha Tour blades for the ability to make every shot feel like the ball was never NOT airborne on that nice flight path. The AF Tour? Honestly, it might be a little ahead of the Yammies in the soft+sweet category, in my opinion. I'd have to hit them side by side to be sure.

I use a RC 5W and their 21 and 24 utes. Check my signature for specifics. They are all three absolutely top of their class! The 5W, in particular, is a force of nature. It might be my second favorite club after my putter. Also, I posted a detailed comparison of all three versus a strongly competitive field of candidates. Do a search on "royal collection"'and my name and you should be able to find the relevant post without any problem. Or suffice with this brief summary: you would have to look long and hard in my opinion to find anything that would be their equal in terms of playability and reliability. Doubt you'd find anything substantially "better", though it depends a lot on what you like. I like small, compact heads and a solid-feeling shot. All three RCs have both in spades. FWIW, I tried the RC MBs last Tuesday, shafted with DG S200s. One of the nicer blades out there, without question. I thought that, with the S200s, the club felt a lite shrill on Moabite, but pure shots were like Christmas came early. I was smiling a lot! I also hit a new RC "frying pan" driver on Tuesday. In my opinion, RC cometely missed the plot on this one. It felt like I was swing a stick of cotton candy, and felt like I was hitting a balloon. Absolutely pitiful feedback, and zero need-that-in-my-bag factor. Really a big disappointment. May post this separately to see if others have had better experiences. Oddest thing? What purpose other than aesthetics does the twin rail serve on a driver? No need to channel through the rough with a driver, I hope!

I play the non-Proto 52/58 combo. They displaced first Cleveland 588 Tours and then Miuras. There's been no looking back! Literally everyone who hits them loves them. They have excellent, controlled spin (as noted above, not "super spin" like some), dense head weight, and a great look from all lies. I am by no means a wedge monster ( it's the worst part of my game), but my confidence has increased tremendously using these. Highly recommended in the non- Proto version. No shame if you missed the Proto boat!

IMPORTANT CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I was quite wrong, it turns out. Carl stated in an email that his irons are "forged in Japan" at a foundry he does not want to disclose, to avoid other companies following his trend. I can actually appreciate his circumspection: if he believes he's onto something in the forgings that differentiates his clubs, it definitely represents "competitive advantage" to keep his source secret. [An analogy: Would Coca Cola give away its secret recipe to other companies? I doubt it. But if they did, I'll bet there would be a lot of afficianados on the DrinkColaToImpress forum who might think, "Yes, now that I know how they make it, I appreciate it SO much more and it TASTES so much better!"] Also, it adds a bit of mystique! Of note, Carl says that he prefers this new foundry "in every way possible" to the foundry he used previously. And that's saying a lot!