DemolitionMan

You kind of answered your own question. Someone like Goosen is not necessarily going to benefit. If you are a great driver of the ball, and play a neutral setup, then about the only thing the R7 can possibly offer is a lower ball flight and a little less spin. It is possible from a cosmetic point of view you could like the setup better, it does have a more compact look than the 510 DF. PGA Tour pros are a lousy reference for what driver to use if you are looking for specific reasons. There are too many intangibles for these people and on top of all that, they are paid to play the sponsor's clubs. Yes I know there are plenty of non TM staffers paid by another OEM that has a TM driver in the bag. They like the setup, they like the results, that's about all they can say when it comes down to it. Does that mean it will work for you - the non pro golfer? No. Does that mean you should not play another driver? Obviously no. TM makes a really good driver, it is undeniable. But it does not fit everyone's eye, so others will go with Titleist, Callaway, whatever.... Choice of driver and getting one properly set up has little to do with TM's sales/marketing strategy. Of course the 300 series is a suitable driver for most golfers, as is the 500 series. TM is not saying you have to go to the R7 just because, and they are saying it is not for most golfers. But if you want to experiment with ball flights and go down that road, there's your driver. It is pointless to argue/discuss the strategy of TM to come out with new drivers so often and what it does to the market place. And it is pretty pointless to discuss the lack of benefits of the next great driver. It will not stop the OEMs from pursuing the same strategy of marketing so called innovation in order to push sales. They cannot stand still, if they did, they would have to change the entire corporate strategy...and risk being sued by Titleist for copying their slow ways (that was a joke). It is useful to discuss the R7 in and of itself as a golf club. What are it's features, what kind of performance can be counted on, who is it for, etc.....

Natto I can live with, it's Durian that makes me run for the door! Go Maru, go Maru. It would be awesome if he wins, but the pressure just went up 10 fold for tomorrow so we'll see......

In shafts maybe, if we are going back 20 years. But in driver heads? I would hardly call the lackluster performance on the course and in sales revolutionary. Cally is 0 for 2 with their big money expense on this revolution.

Payne Stewart won a US open ( if i'm not wrong ) w/ this putter beat up Phil M on a putting contest the last day. Joe I would hardly have called the rounds at Pinehurst a putting contest between Payne and Phil. You had to be great from tee to green and especially around the greens to even contend....then the putting got interesting. Payne was ball striking very well that week and Phil was his usual magical short game self. But the pressure of constantly trying to save par proved to be just a little too much....that and Phil had wife/kids on his mind. Back to the topic. The three dots look too busy when you just look at the putter, but as alignment aids, it works really well. At the very least, it will prevent you from leaning the shaft back when you address a putt, which is a kiss of death.

For those of you who hang out in the tour/import forum only, there is a US Open contest in the General Forum. Wait....let me start over. There is a General Forum, the link is up top, in the General Forum you will find a US Open contest. MAKE SOME PICS!!!!!!!

Depends if it's 'overnight' or not! Get it!!!? :surprize: You obviously get it, married???? :laugh:

Nice pics. Paintfill one of them with a different color (like white) and it will be even easier to tell them apart.

The boxes are only on tour issue Callaway fusions. Retail models only have a serial number in that area. BTW, the TM weights are not overrated. If you have a decent swing, changing 2 - 10g of weight can and does change ballflight.

Oh sure, I am always happy. Especially when you call yourself a "Goose". :lol:

I think you are both mixed up. Forget the hosel, "face progression" is the distance between the axis of the shaft (a line running down the center of the shaft and hosel) and the leading edge. If the leading edge lined up exactly with the outside of the hosel (part of hosel, closest to the target) there would still be a positive number and the number would only go up as the leading edge protruded more. What "we" commonly refer to as no offset because the leading edge is even with the outside of the hosel could actually be +2.5 mm of face progression. In the end, yes, the bigger the number of "face progression" is less offset because the edge is sticking out more. Uh, Joe, how does the US calculate offset??? Did your dog eat your homework? :lol: Just kidding with you. Anyway, US OEMs are not necessarily backwards, they are measuring something else and they call it "offset", not "face progression." Generally, they measure "offset", which is how far back the leading edge sits from the hosel (outside of the hosel towards target). So the larger the offset number in the US, the more back the leading edge is from the hosel.

In fairness to the ones listing tour clubs for sale, they are afterall the ones who have the experience hitting the clubs, so there is some truth, some hype. And still, the 510 DF was tour only until the TP came out and dialing in the right shaft with that head has saved me at least two strokes a round....some days more.

I have not played the TS V-IQs, I really have not looked into them. Generally, I have very little interest in a high COR driver and so I assume upfront most Japanese offerings with the best technology are high COR. I have hit the PRGR-Duo, again, the best one's are high COR, so they do not get too much attention. I will say this about the latest craze of carbon composites with Titanium, take a look at the new Cobra. I do not know what they did that is different than TS, Mizuno, Yonex, and Cally, but they got it right big time. The 414 Comp hits the ball FAR and is really forgiving. Every other composite driver I have hit has the muted sound, the Cobra does not. It still has a strong bang. But oh my is it ugly. The cobra logo, the lighter lattice of the carbon, and the indentations on the top really contribute to a distracting look. But perhaps that is the price to pay for a driver that performs. The stock offering has a 45G Mitsubishi Rayon. For a light shaft, it sure works. Side by side between ERC Fusion and Cobra Comp...the Cobra kicks the Cally to the curb.

I type all this stuff instead of working on something. So golf forum time is really expensive for me. :lol: My wife already thinks I spend too much time in golf and overall is pretty cool about it. So I do not push my luck to much - one round a week (two if there is some unusual opportunity) and a few trips to the range to putt for dollars. That's why I will most likely never be a scratch golfer, you have to play a ton and 45 - 50 rounds a year is not a ton.

Well at least they did not come up with a really crazy name like TOUR LAMPPOST or TOUR LONGFINGER. :lol:

I am currently playing the R7 M.A.X and agree with you 100% that most swings wont be helped by moving the weights. Its actually a maximum of 20gs of weight that is able to move. I do think its longer than the DF maybe due to its new inverted cone tech but other than that it would have been nice if they kept the weights off this thing. Nice set up, pretty long, and very forgiving is what id say about it. How many grams would it take to fix your average players ball flight problems? Answer: 150 grams! LOL Even the TM FAQ that they give to retailers says for the retailer to tell customers the driver is for the better player that has a consistent swing. If you can swing the same each time and hit a mild fade, moving the weights will give you a mild draw. Perfectly believable. But if you release early and swing out to in, you are still going out of bounds, just maybe not as far!!!

Looks fake to me........ No, this one is fake....but appropriate. :wink:

I put so called "tour" weights in the retail head. They are all the same.

The weights are all the same for the tour, TP, and regular retail. TM can do some things that are not so cool for retailers and customers, but that would be going a little too far. I do not know where the RD manager got his info, he probably made it up. All he had to do was call his TM rep and get the real scoop.

Yes, but think about all the fun you would have missed out on. :lol:

While the NAK NP-R is pretty good, there are two things about it that bothered me and so I returned mine. One, the bulge on the sole was tough to get used to on really tight lies in the fairway. It's an awesome club out of the rough. But on a tight lie, ballflight was too low. Two, I had the wrong loft. Thinking it would be similar to a TM Rescue where you go down a number to replace an iron (Rescue #4 to replace a 3 iron) I had the NP-R4 to replace my 3 iron and it ended up being a good replacement for the 4 iron! Ooops. I played mine with a TT TX-90. I think steel is a better fit for these clubs, but that's a personal thing, nothing to be carved in stone. A couple of minor things, I hate the N logo raised on the clubface. It looks more closed than .5* so that took some getting used to. Still, better than the TM Rescue. I cannot compare to the Hogan, I only hit those a few times at the PGA Show.

Yes, face prgression and offset are basically the same thing. However face progression can be a positive or negative number which corresponds to offset or onset. The TM CBs are a "player's cb" so your pro is saying something confusing. I would think a pro would tell you to practice the right drills more to work on reducing side spin on the ball which is causing the ballto go right. This could be becuase you do not have enough lag in your swing, possibly an open club face, or square face with a slight outside to in path, etc.... A more forgiving club can only keep the ball more in play. But if path, face angle, and impact are producing a shot that ends up to the right, a more forgiving club will produce the same ball flight, just possibly not as dramatic. If you like your irons, then stick with them. Find drills to help your swing flaws. And make sure the shaft is right for you. Good luck.

I almost never post on any tour vs retail topic on any forum and I probably have more credibility than just about anyone on this topic. Why? One, I have bought and/or played just about every tour club out there under the notion that it was fun. I was never under any illusion that a tour club was going to save me strokes. Two, I play to a 12 index but I also regularly play with three scratch golfers (well, two and one that used to be scratch) and I can hang with those guys on any shot they can hit. I just cannot consistently do that over 18 holes. Lose a stroke here and there and it adds up.....especially off the tee which is my biggest weakness. So here is what I have found in two+ years of being a huge club ho. 1. The industry cannot keep up with me. I am bored with club ho'ing. The R7 has me mildly interested, but not to the point that it is in my bag today. After that, there is nothing out there in terms of technology, looks, or just plain wow factor that has me chasing after another club. Sure, there are a ton of Japanese clubs that would be cool to try, but I am not in a hurry. 2. Tour clubs do not save shots, clubs that are fit for you and feel comfortable save shots and those could be tour or retail. Feeling comfortable is not a science, it could be the satin finish, it could be the face depth, it could be the sound, but whatever it is, your mind knows what feels good and what does not. When a club feels good and relaxes you, this has an unquantifiable positive effect on your game. 3. Once in awhile a tour club comes out that is not otherwise available in similar setup or retail that is just an awesome club. TM is the most guilty of this. When the 300 Tours were out, that driver blew away every retail driver by 20 yards, and this is no joke. Sure, the sweet spot was the size of a quarter, but if you could hit it, the new balls just exploded. The next best club in retail were the new Cobras at the time with the super big sweet spot. But holy cow, the Cobras were LOUD!!!! The TM 510 DF is another example before the 510 TP was released. It was nothing like the other TM retail drivers and it was a more forgiving version of the 300 Tour. 4. So, is it worth an extra $300 - $1000 (or more) to get the tour issued driver? Of course not. How could it be? It's been argued many times before and the bottom line that always comes out is that tour issued is for players who do not pay for clubs (pros), enthusiats who have the money to burn and like the hobby aspect of golf whether that be a passion or for collecting, other enthusiasts who have good connections so the cash outlay is minimal so therefore its fun to hit the best clubs, and the very rare soon to be pro golfer who needs the rare combination not otherwise offered in retail. Any other reason is a lie. Pick your OEM. Titleist? The best they can offer is that tour issue club heads are weight sorted, blah, blah, blah. The best "tour club sellers" can offer is "I assure you, tour issue is different, blah, blah, blah." Bottom line is the differences are so small that not more than 1 or 2 out of 1000 golfers could tell the difference. Personally, I think Titleist thins out the face a little more in tour drivers, they have room to do this because the retail drivers are not pushing the COR limit. Other than that, it's a little bit of rat glue and strategic placement of lead tape that differentiates the driver. And of course, the rare proto head that never makes it to retail - see LFF, which is a neutral version of the same looking retail driver and again, slightly thinner face. Callaway? Guess what, it's the same heads, and Cally does make square faced drivers. They make a lot of closed face ones too, and a few open ones. Check the damn website for the specs. And if there is any doubt Cally has something special, go to their pre-owned site and buy used clubs from the "tour" and when you get it in the mail I will not say I told you so when the GBB II looks just like the one at the store. TM? We know their story. While it's nice they have a TP line, TM is still a bunch of pricks. 5. In terms of Drivers, awhile ago I had a Titleist JVS HiCor before they were declared illegal and I was killing it off the tee. It would drive another member here nuts because there should be no way that I am consistently longer. Then the club became illegal, the other guy got a TM 300 Tour and I was 40 yards behind him for many months. Then I got a 510 DF (tour issue) shafted by Joe Kwok with a 693 Fuji Tour Spec. And I was back to killing it off the tee. Then against all logic, I gave out the driver to another member and went on a 4 month quest to find a replacement. I tried a lot of drivers with a lot of shafts. Nothing came close. The best short experience was the Cally Titanium 2004 Big Bertha with a Fuji Tour release. Finally, I got another 510 with a Fuji 693 and am back to my comfort level. But, this one is a TP, not a DF. Difference? None. Maybe it sounds not quite as muted as the DF, but it is every bit as long. So, really the two things I learned about tour vs retail drivers are, the face setup in terms of heel to toe length and face depth was very important to my comfort level and allowing me to swing more smoothly. Performance wise, the Fuji 693 matches up very well to my swing and scientifically, that makes the biggest difference. A 693 in a retail driver will not be as good because I am not as comfortable with the face, but a 693 in a GBB II will be better than say an Aldila in a GBB II simply because Aldilas are death for my swing profile. 6. Irons - Tour issued irons are mostly about looks. Whatever tour iron is out there, you can get a very similar setup in retail. Tour at best gets you a certain finish or style that you cannot get from OEM retail. Any other aspect can be duplicated, you just might have to pay more. The business about tour brand X feels much softer than any retail is nonsense. Recently I just saw "tour" Titleist 704.CBs. You would not believe how minute the difference is between tour issued and retail. Look at the end of my sentence, that's the difference. A pro's 704.CBs vs retail is about fitting. And why would you want irons fit for someone else? A little bit of grind here and there, and a shaft setup for the swing profile is all that is different. And by the way, retail 704.CBs are pretty soft feeling for a retail CB club. I was very surprised. They are not far off from TM RAC CBs from Miura....very close. Save your money, get a retail iron set you really like, then spend the money to get the right shafts and blueprint them. Why? Because a consistent feel across your set is much more important than a tour set that has one or two irons you like. And the nature of steel shaft manufacturing is such that there will be a spine. There is plenty of scientific data that proves dispersion of blueprinted clubs is better than off the rack clubs. But if you are a club ho, then do not waste your money on blueprinting - you will never have the irons long enough to get to know them, so why bother? 7. Wedges. Here is a very gray area. Wedges are highly customizable compared to irons/drivers, so easily there are many tour issued wedges out there that could be more suitable for the better player than anything they can find retail. A few notes: - If you are a TM player, do not waste money on tour wedges, their retail offerings are really good and very close to what is on tour. Biggest differences are in the additional grinding some pros get. Most common extra grind is heel relief. Buy the retail and if that does not have enough heel relief, pay JK $5 to grind on your wedge. Yes the 304 SS is really soft and there are very few wedges like it at all. So if you play these, you definitely fall in the category of "I can afford to beat up my $300 wedges". - Quit asking for and using a special grind that is one, not suitable for you, and two, you do not even have a clue what the grind is for. If you must experiment with different grinds, buy $20 clevelands from Ebay, grind them up and experiment until you find what you like for the courses you play the most. Otherwise, what are you doing? Heel grinds are important if you know how to use the wedge correctly, otherwise what a waste! - Some retail wedges have terrible grooves, most of the ones from the major OEMs are suitable for 99% of the golfing population. If you have to have "tour grooves" then get an aftermarket job from Iron Factory. It is the same damn club that costs you $400 in the form of a tour vokey. - Cleveland and Titleist Vokey makes good wedges, suitable for most. What "tour issue" gets you that retail cannot is the special grind (if it works for you) and weight. Tour Clevelands for example can be really heavy, like D-7 swingweight with no tricks at all, just a S400 and a grip. There are no D-7 retail wedges. So for people who like a really heavy wedge, you go the "tour" route or you buy a roll of lead tape. It's all about personal preference. - Grooves pushed to the max of legal limit spin more, end of story. Does not matter if it is boxed, U, hybrid, whatever. If you maximize groove width, the wedge will grip the ball better and spin it more. "Tour" wedges tend to have this more. Is that good? Maybe? But ask yourself this, lately on the PGA Tour, are the balls spinning back 25 feet on every green? Does TW spin the hell out of his wedges? Spin is sexy, but too much is stupid and uncontrollable. You need to know your shot patterns, know how you tend to use your gap, sand, and lob wedges. Then you can determine where spin can be removed or applied. The answer could be in the ball, the answer could be in the grooves, the answer is most likely in a retail wedge, rarely does a "tour" wedge solve it all. The point is, if you do not know your short game pretty well, what reason do you apply to a "tour wedge" purchase? 8. Putters. I have a potentially $10,000 true tour putter just sitting against my bookshelf while I type this up. In terms of performance, it is very streaky. Even if it was a $100 putter, it woud not be in my bag. Tour putters are the ultimate in status symbol or collectibles. They absolutely do not perform any better than retail putters as a whole. Tour putters have very few distinct characteristics that you cannot ever get in retail such as special stamps, different finishes, and custom hand ground. None of these make you a better putter. Here is a newsflash for all of you. Nowadays when a pro wants to try a Scotty Cameron, the tour rep is giving out a retail Scotty. Just because you are on tour does not automatically get you the Circle T or the handstamped. You need to have some sort of relationship with Scotty, then you get the "custom" putter ordered from the studio and delivered. So PGA Tour pros are putting with retail Scotty's God forbid!!!! And please, most of you do not need 350G putters. You know what I am talking about. Okay, my fingers are getting tired. 9. I wanted to find more forgiving clubs thinking I could save some strokes. I played a bag of Callaways for six weeks. It was fun, but I did not necessarily get better. In some ways I got worse. So, I went back to an almost all MR-23 Tourstage bag. No doubt the CBs and MBs are some of the smaller clubs out there and therefore less forgiving and harder to hit. But you know what, my iron game has been much better over the last month. It's not the clubs. It's better tempo and better lag. I am still working on those. 10. Conclusions: Once in awhile a tour club gets you better performance that cannot be matched with the retail version of the same club. If you have the money, great. There are a ton of very good retail clubs out there. Titleist has little difference, TM has a few tour only clubs but many of them are making their way to the TP line, Callaway has little difference. The rest of the OEMs have little difference, at best, their are tour only prototypes. You cannot overestimate the importance of properly fit clubs, tons of people underestimate it. Tour clubs in the hands of golf forum members are pretty much a hobby. It's something to have fun with and talk about away from the action of the game. If it means much more than that to some of you, it's time to reevaluate. Cheers.

They don't say test sample. From every pic of the retail putter I have seen, the current inventory being handed out at tour events are pretty much the same putter. Possibly a different grip??? I don't know for sure until I see a retail one sometime next week. Just in case the first post did not make sense, I have 330G/35". Not 350G, not 340G.....

I have two of these putters. I obtained them from the tour. I have not seen a retail Red X in person, only in pictures, so at first glance the two I have are pretty identical to retail. In other words, no circle T's or crown stamps. But they are tour issue, where else would I get them this early? 35" in length, 330g head. Tip top condition, only rolled a few putts on the practice green in Texas. Comes with Red X headcover. $550 each paypal'd and shipped.

Blue? What do I know, I can only go by what I see in my hands ?!?!? 8O