NiftyNiblick

There's one thing that jumps out when you look through the 58/60° wedge offerings from Crews, Honma-Beres, PRGR, Fourteen, and the other high end JDMs. They all come with fairly generous bounce. You don't see many of the 3, 4 and 5° bounce angles that come on some American lob wedges. My long time favorite Cleveland 691 58° had ZERO bounce, and the recently defunct clubmaker Merit offered an entire line of Zero Bounce wedges. What this says to me is that JDM lob wedge users are really attacking their lob wedge shots with full swings. That takes a little guts from my 11 handicapper prespective! I dial down my weak lofted gap wedge from 60-90 yards out rather than jump on my lob wedge. Using my lob wedge for little greenside finesse shots, hedge jumpers after errant approaces, little flips over bunkers, and the like, I don't want bounce. That's why I loved the now very worn out Cleveland. Another thing, of course, is that I'm one of the last of the dedicated sand iron users. None of my turf wedges has to do duty in greenside bunkers, so bounce choice is again reflected there. I suppose that that's minor compensation for not having the power to need so many long clubs--there's room for a dedicated sand iron. Unlike as with the upright JDM fairway woods, I totally understand the medium bounce lob wedges. I'm just a little surprised at the fact that they're almost all that way. I suppose scratch and near-scratch players know how to work those special grinds with relieved heels and such better than I do. I'd be interested in your comments.

Don't laugh, but I'm resorting to wood to get flat enough fairway woods. The Louisville Niblicks are not bad clubs at all, although I don't mean to plug a non-sponser on TSG. Actually, with their very heavy soleplates and weak lofts, most of the better players here would hit the ball too high with them. They're not targeted at you guys. But they are very good clubs for those of us who can play them. Still really love the looks of that Mizuno, though. I just didn't realize that all of our Japanese friends are now coming into the world with long legs and short arms!

I've no use for a 14.5° fairway club with my swingspeed, but the 17.5 would be a great club to have. What a beautiful and confidence-inspiring fairway wood! But those lie angles, really... Can't you use your influence as a major importer to get them to flatten those lie angles--or at least make them adjustable?/ What is the science behind putting a 3-iron lie angle on a long fairway wood? Especially on one with a rail rather than rocker sole? I just don't get it. Have they ever explained it? Still, if your swing is nice and tall and vertical, it would be hard to find a prettier fairway wood than that.

Absolutely right, xxio, especially if you don't worry about the stamping. If the stamping doesn't have to be right, you could keep it under 3° and not alter the sole configuration that much. In case I haven't explained it yet, however, this is why those lofts that I mention might allow a perfectly balanced bag configuration for some seniors like me. 12 or 13° driver 17° 4-wood 20, 23, 26° hybrids >>>>>>30, 35, 40, 45° six through nine irons--this is the perfect middle that makes configuring the top and bottom easy. 50, 55, 60° turf wedges (medium-low, medium-low, ultra-low bounce) DEDICATED SAND IRON --sorry, I like these putter The above might be the perfect set for me at this stage of my game. It's do-able, but harder than it should be. That's it. We can probably let this thread die now before it bores everybody to death! Thanks again for the dialogue, guys.

Yes, that absolutely works as far as the classic vs. modern lofts argument goes. I'd rather see the stamping on the sole that I want to see, but if I got past that, I could just use another club. My new crusade is the 5° increment thing. With #s 6-9 irons at 30, 35, 40, and 45°, that simple setup in the middle makes configuring the top and bottom a lot more flexible.

Never give up gear that you like, Bombadier, even if you're temporarily smitten with something else. My basement looks like a museum.

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Check this out, xxio. http://www.tourspecgolf.com/proshop/p2121/...oduct_info.html These are specs for the Honma iron. If you make them about 3/4" longer and a half degree flatter. totally do-able, you've got 1950s-1960s specs down cold. The only problem is the stamping, which would be two full numbers too high on everything. Honma wouldn't have to change a thing to have a classic lofts set except the STAMPINGS. Can you believe that? If they did custom stamping, the whole classic lofts issue is settled. The five degree increment thing is also already in place with Mizuno's ladies' irons. I like the old Tava more thanthe current Sora for a conversion to men's clubs, but the principle is also already in place there. I guess if you resourceful enough, you can find something close to what you want.

Let’s, for a moment, forget about blades and “players’” cavity backs that are almost blades, and concentrate instead on high quality clubs aimed at the mid-handicap recreational player. If you check out the domestic offerings, you’ll see garish graphics, brightly colored inserts and appliqués, and any number of visual effects that make expensive sporting goods look not terribly unlike children’s toys. In contrast, check out the Epon AF-701, the Fourteen TC-770, The Honma-Beres MG-703, and the Miura MC-102. Can you see what I’m getting at? I would be interested to read opinions as to why some of you think this is so.

It's easier to purchase one utility club sight-unseen than an entire set of irons. I purchased an Epon AF-901 driving iron, partly because it looked visually more forgiving than the Fourteen or PRGR models (although I've an older PRGR Zoom 050i that was considered chic in its day), partly because it offered more original shaft options, but also, in small measure, because the Fourteen came in a HI-550 and a HI-660 without too much explanation describing the difference. It isn't just a golf issue. The present state of technical writing isn't good. And that's BEFORE any translation from one language to another. Education is expensive, people entering school are thinking of careers more than just broadening the vistas of their minds, and the emphasis is on science and technology more than literary composition. We all agree that science and technology are critically important, but at some point, people have to communicate their thoughts as well.

I think it would be a great idea for a clubmaker to invest some development in manufacturing techniques. The first high volume company that can produce a nice looking club with fitting options for everybody--lie, face angle, loft, etc.--will have a big step up on its competitors. It's one thing to find the options that you want, but it's quite another to find them in the specific club that you'd like. I have complete faith that this is on the horizon somewhere. The big question is whether or not it comes in time for us.

I think you missed my point, Duff. I meant classic lots, except two full number stampings off! 4=2, 5=3, ......11=9. Or to put it another way, if you add three-quarters or one inch of length and go 1° flatter, the Beres #s 4-11 are just about dead-on 1950s/1960s #s 2-9 clubs.

I just checked out the Honma 703 specs. #s 4-11 are pretty much classic lofts/slightly short lengths for #s 2-9. Since they don't call the short irons wedges, this is actually an improvement over some of what we've seen lately. Just think of the new numbers as Celcius instead of Fahrenheit (or something like that)! "Yeah, I hit a six, but that's Japanese for a four." Of much more importance, it looks to be quite the handsome golf club.

This is really the ONLY way to be sure you're not getting scammed with counterfeits. Whether it be through a trusted source like TSG or a green grass golf professional at a local club, have your gear ordered from the factory for direct delivery to you. Don't buy expensive equipment out of inventory from a source you don't know. NN

Thanks for the replies, guys. My idea is impractical or somebody other than Vega would have already done it, I suppose. Well, I’ve discovered that the 5° increment thing has been done on a regular production club by Mizuno in their Tava and now Sora women’s irons, but they begin with a 30° six iron. Maybe a similar line for seniors? One last look and then I’ll let the thread die a peaceful death. These would be my complete specs for a senior iron set: _____________loft__ length___ lie____swingwgt___bounce Long Iron*____20°__ 39.125"___59°___D0________1° 5-iron________25°__ 38.625"___60°___D0________2° 6-iron________30°__ 38.000"___61°___D0________3° 7-iron________35°__ 37.375"___61.5°___D0_______4° 8-iron________40°__ 36.750"___62°___D0________5° 9-iron________45°__ 36.125"___62.5°___D0_______6° Pitching Wedge 50°__ 35.500"___63°___D1_________7° Gap Wedge *__55°__ 35.500"___63°___D3_________8° Lob Wedge *__ 60° __35.500"___63°___D3_________4° * optional

What you say is true, Goodsie, but if a high end / low volume custom order company like Scratch, whom I'd like to see become the new Kenneth Smith, has success with the idea, then the component companies will try it, and if it flies for them, the major OEMs will just about have to do it. The argument for the classic lofts in a player's iron is that modern lofts destroy long iron play for the players who excel at it. If you have to add wedges at the bottom of the set just to get past fifty degrees, your top of the set options are limited. Big hitters have more fairway distances to cover up above their five iron. The typical player may realistically have as few as two fairway shots left after the five iron, a fairway wood and a hybrid, so four wedges is completely do-able for him. The argument for wide loft increments for the aspiring player is twofold. First, it gives him a meaningful distance gap between clubs. Second, and less obvious, is that it makes room for utility clubs. High handicappers LOVE utility clubs, be they chippers, dedicated sand irons, bump and run irons, driving irons, Ginty type recovery woods--you name it. If you play nine holes a week in an after work league and then, when you can, once on the weekend, you're not getting blisters banging balls on the practice tee. You're tempted to buy some shots instead, and as you're no threat to ruin the Tiger's comeback, as you're just trying to maximize your fun, it's not really a threat to the integrity of the game.

Let's be honest, this is the only forum on the entire website that gets any action. The others seem to have the same most recent post for days if not longer. So to make this the appropriate forum for this thread, I am suggesting this idea to the ultra high end Japanese manufacturere as well! This is what I'd LOVE to see an OEM do, because if it were successful, it would be copied by others. If Ari over at Scratch is watching, here’s a way to truly replace the late, great Kenneth Smith Company as America’s premier custom clubmaker. Offer your player’s iron in two series: LIMITED EDITION CLASSIC LOFTS ..1_______18° ..2_______21° ..3_______24° ..4_______27° ..5_______30° ..6_______34° ..7_______38° ..8_______42° ..9_______46° PW______52° MODERN PRO LOFTS ..2_______19° ..3_______22° ..4_______25° ..5_______28° ..6_______32° ..7_______36° ..8_______40° ..9_______44° PW______48° Offer your game improvement iron in two series: MODERN RECREATIONAL LOFTS ..5_______27° ..6_______30° ..7_______33° ..8_______37° ..9_______41° PW______45° GW___ __50° WIDE GAP LOFTS ..5_______25° ..6_______30° ..7_______35° ..8_______40° ..9_______45° PW______50° It seems like a little thing, but it would make set configuration easier and more precise for a lot of discriminating equipment fanatic-players. Merely bending lofts affects the sole configurations too much.

As one of the few hard core lefties playing golf (right-handed) at an America private club (hypocritical as that may seem), as a completely unrepentant child of the sixties, and as a guy whose dream is that Mr. Obama steers our nation through a hard left-hand turn belatedly into the 21st century, I’d respectfully suggest that you quit complaining about taxes and be grateful that you live in a civilized country. Canada is North America’s one precious little piece of Europe, while we neighbors south of the border have a lot of catching up to do. Our pockets of civilization like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, and San Francisco have for too long lived under the cloud of a Crawford mentality. At least under the Maple Leaf, you can tee up one of those 1.62” Dunlop 65s that you’ve been saving, give the ball a good smack, and shout “Power to the Proletariat” without somebody bitching about grumpy old pinkos like NiftyNiblick on the course!

My swing was decribed by one instructor as a classic 1920s hickory shaft swing. It's flatter, it's more inside out, and my follow through leaves me leaning slightly forward, square to the target, and definitely not in the modern reverse C position, any attempt at which would more likely result in an out of balance, reverse weight shift situation for me. But it's repeatable and has had me down as low as a seven at one time. Thus the shaft droop allowance which works for most simply results in too upright a lie for me. Fortunately, I've found solutions, but they require sacrificing technology for fit, something that I'm willing to do.

My lament is that the more complicated clubs get from a technology perspective, the less you can do to alter the static specifications. The beauty of persimmon or laminated maple woods was that a wood lathe would make you any spec you wanted in terms of loft/lie/face angle combo. The OEMs tend to go more upright and closed as the lofts go up with titanium, and that doesn't work universally. Also, I love the design and materials of many J-Spec drivers and fairways, but the upright lie angles are obviously intended for giant sumo wrestlers. It's the old shaft droop theory. My mind can't believe it, so my body can't hit it.

Toward the end of the season just past, I had use of a PRGR TR-X505 3-wood. I don't usually play a 3-wood, but this one was 16.5° and very playable. I would get a pair of these in a heartbeat if I could get two matching ones with the lofts, lies, and face angles that I want. So far, that doesn't appear do-able with anybody but Zeider or Louisville, but if PRGR has the specs you want, and you like a nice, verticle descent that stays put instead of bounding into trouble, it's pretty tough to beat this club.

Interesting to know. What is the bio-mechanical consequence of a little too much weight on the ferrule? I admit that it doesn't sound as if it would be good.

I've owned one legitimate 'tour issue" club, a 17º Titleist 970 Series fairway metal. It was a good club but nothing special. Very well made, low tech, high cg for a four wood; I would have needed a softer tip shaft with it. When the "e-bay" supply dried up, I found myself unable to afford to keep it just as a 'collection" club. Eldrick was playing the 15º--not 13 but 15--and I was offered too much to keep it, largely, I suspect, because of him. If I ran across one cheap, now that nobody cares about them, I might return it to my collection. It was a handsome club. The Japanese metals seem to be the exact opposite--cutting edge tech, as a rule, very playable (but often too upright).

I certainly can't imagine that as a do it yourself project. The GolfWorks used to do that--still might--as does The Iron Factory. Since neither are sponsors here, it would probably be nice for somebody to mention somebody who is, if an onboard firm does this work.

That's really a classic look--the wing pattern that appeared on so many classic blades (including the PowerBilt Citations with which I learned the game as a boy) set inside a modest cavity. It's been done several times before, but it's executed very handsomely here.