Japanese Drivers better than American ??

[Browntollio]

The driving debate continues. Not too many Americans have had a chance to play this high end Japanese equip, but I'm sure that many of the posters here have tried the FT-3, 5, Sumo, SQ, SuperQuad, etc. Is this absolutely beautiful EPON driver or Tour Stage better than those in regards to distance or feel? I wanted to put a RODDIO in my Nike SQ Tour, but the gentleman said no, I'm still not sure why. So I guess to take advantage of this great shaft I have to play a Japanese head. Are these heads better than their American counterparts? I'm hitting the ball nasty right now, and want to get as much distance as I can, I max out at about 290 after a nice roll etc with a Callaway X460 9 degree with a 63 Diamana. It produces too much spin though, I can tell the flight can be better, higher launch with less spin (hence my wanting to switch to a Roddio) any help?

[Vincenti]

In short, Yes. In addition J-Clubs finishing and design are very fine, that please your heart.

I sold all my u.s. clubs, except putters. I think it's about time for me to replace the putters.

PS: I don't say u.s. clubs are bad, they just made for common people. Once you are becoming more demanding, then you have to look to next stage to nirvana.

[ClubHoUno]

I don't think you'll find that much of a difference between the HIGH TECH tour gear drivers from the US and tour gear from Japan when it comes to performance. If so, the few asian pros who now and then joins the PGA tour and major championships would all hit ít longer, better and straighter than the US and Euro guys - but they don't. In fact they hit it shorter and by a big margin. I saw two Japanese guys at the masters last week woth Tourstage gear in the bag. I really like Tourstage gear, but they don't hit it any longer or better with Tourstage drivers than with the other top brand driver from the US.

If Japanese drivers would give the tour pro's an extra 10 yard, you can bet they would use them in tournaments or the US gear guys would copy the technology in a heart beat.

What I believe makes japanese gear so special is the innovation and new technology they put into their drivers - and this is mostly helping the mid to high handicappers.

But the new drivers from Callaway and TaylorMade are in my view up there with the best JDM drivers when it comes to performance with regards to shaping the ball, hitting it longer - but where I see a difference is in the low end driver market, where JDM gear offers much more technology, but also for an extra price, that the JDM market are willing to pay.

You see a lot more innovation in the JDM drivers, and this technology will slowly but steadily float to the US market, when new driver technology has been evolved in the JDM market. The older technlogy will then be considered new in the US, but can be sold at a cheaper price - a price the US guys are willing to pay.

When I buy a TM SuperQuad TP driver, and pays $699, this is considered expensive in the US and Europe, but in Japan, this is an average price for a driver - go figure that out.

Guys in Asia are simply willing to pay more for the extra high tech stuff that you get in a Japanese driver. As I say, I don't think this will help the low capper so much as it will help the high capper, who struggles off the tee. I've changed my driver every year for the last 3 years, and I don't think I've added more than 10 yards to my driver length in this span and this mostly is because of the evolution in ball technology. Where I've seen an improvement is in forgiveness - and I think it's here that you really gain by playing expensive high tech JDM drivers....forgiveness off the tee, and on top of that you get to play with a driver that only a very few select people will know what is. The average Joe will think you got your $800 Tourstage driver in the nearest WallMart - but deep inside you know you play with something special and unique

The same goes for forged irons - I play with Ping S 58 and frankly I love them. Are they as soft as my Miura and Mizuno irons, NO - but they still feel great and have other stuff built in the head that makes them play great. Will I ever consider NOT playing with forged irons now and then, to enjoy the feel of a well struck forged shot, NO, but a cast Ping still feels awesome - it's all a matter of taste and what you deep inside believe is the best for YOU !

[vandercharks]

Just to chime in, I have a PRGR T3 Black that has the sweetest sound when struck pure...one of the more workable drivers I've hit. I just need to upgrade the stock shaft for a RODDIO or OZIK....and possibly get a 9* head. But I digress....I like the FT-5 and Superquad...it's just like Claus said a matter of taste and I like the sound and results from my T3 Black better.

[K2_2]

At the end of the day you want a shaft and head combo that suits your swing. The shaft weight, bend profile, feel, and flex need to be matched up with a head that has the right weighting, loft, and spin characteristics.

Can you do this and find a good fit with a US or Japanese head and shaft? Yes. Will they feel the same and allow the same degree of optimization? In my experience, no.

Edit for brevity: I'll leave the rest to Chris.

Edited April 11, 2007 by K2_2

[Barry_757]

I would definitely say the answer to that question is yes. I just put my new Epon 460 9.5* Axiv 6060M in play a couple about a month ago and its the best feeling driver i've had since the days of persimmon. The two things that sold me most on this driver were the nice clean look on top and bottom, and the ability to order it just like I wanted. I don't know of any U.S. product that can be ordered with your choice of face angle.

Most reviews I've read say the Epon 460 is basically a straight hitting club,which it is very forgiving and easy to hit straight , but I've found that I can work the ball left or right quite easily, I know having the correct shaft has a lot to do with being able to work the ball. I can't speak for the Tour Stage yet but I will say you can't go wrong with anything with Epon on it.

[gocchin]

You've all touched on some really good points. I am a big JDM fan, you all know that. But whether JDM is better than American or vice versa, it is of course all subjective and personal. Even though my wife was born and raised in Japan and it's like my second home, I began playing golf using TM, Nike and Ping clubs. I then discovered JDM clubs and have not looked back. For me it was a totally different feel and as Barry above said, unlimited options. The workmanship, materials used and designs for me were out of this world. This is not to say that American companies don't make good products. When we are talking retail here, America and Japan make products for different price ranges really. Retail clubs in the Japanese market just plain cost more in general, and it shows in the workmanship, materials and options available.

On the shafts side, it's amazing that even Japanese OEM's will sell clubs from factory with ALL the TOP of the line shafts as options, as well as loft, lie, face angle etc. Though I believe American OEM's are heading in that direction too since it's all about being fit for ones game, right now you can buy a Mizuno driver with every single high end shaft as an option from Mizuno, they will even adjust the LIE on your DRIVER. I don't think you can get that done in the USA.

But maybe not everyone needs this kind of customization or all titanium drivers... or not everyone wants to pay for it. But yes there are many of us who are willing to pay for it and appreciate it. It's all about finding what's best for ourselves, and what we are willing to pay for.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

American as in?

As far as I know its all made in China.

The good Japanese drivers usually have a slightly higher ball speed, depending on design and material the feel is enhanced too. That said it doesn't take a JDM driver to shoot low scores, still gotta have the swing.

The USGA has everything max'd out so dont expect major distance gains from anything on any side of the pond.

[ClubHoUno]

American as in?

As far as I know its all made in China.

The good Japanese drivers usually have a slightly higher ball speed, depending on design and material the feel is enhanced too. That said it doesn't take a JDM driver to shoot low scores, still gotta have the swing.

The USGA has everything max'd out so dont expect major distance gains from anything on any side of the pond.

You know what I mean, Chris. Besides that, some Nike and Callaway drivers are made in Thailand by Endo (you said so yourself - so not everything is from China and as you also have mentioned, not everything from China is made with poor quality control)

You can have US brand tour drivers for the price of JDM drivers and the US tour drivers can be fitted to your exact likings - loft, lie, internal weighting etc.

The tour drivers are not on the shelfs, like the JDM drivers are in Japan and I do agree that JDM drivers have advanced shaft options - BUT the trend in the US market is going in the same direction now. Again one can argue, that the JDM market started the trend with exotic shaft options and now 2-3 years later, we see the same trend in the US market.

I agree that the JDM drivers are more innovative with regards to both design and use of high tech materials - but not something that a US tour driver, made in China, can't accommodate regarding the ball speed and smashfactor.

As I said the forgiveness factor is one area where the JDM drivers prevails.

Forgiveness is a must for everybody, but especially for the mid to high cappers - and this is the group of people that will benefit most from the advanced forgiving hot JDM drivers.

[ranghips]

American as in?

As far as I know its all made in China.

The good Japanese drivers usually have a slightly higher ball speed, depending on design and material the feel is enhanced too. That said it doesn't take a JDM driver to shoot low scores, still gotta have the swing.

The USGA has everything max'd out so dont expect major distance gains from anything on any side of the pond.

In my (limited) experience the sheer quality of materials, craftmanship and attention to detail finishing, place the JDM equipment in a totally different category to the US/China OEM's, the price we pay for our HO'ing of JDM gear reflects this! The domestic markets in the US and Europe would not stand the price point that JDM equipment is marketed at. My PRGR T3 with Axiv V has a retail tag of nearly $1000 USD, compare that to the average OEM driver at $300, is my PRGR worth 3 times a Callaway X460 or a Cobra M Speed, possibly not, would the average US or European golfer pay that amount of money, certainly not!

I can honestly say that in over 30 years of playing this game I have never owned anything that came close to my newly acquired Japanese clubs in terms of quality, feel and playability.

But the real reason that we TSG members are so devoted to our JDM clubs - the kudos of owning something so special, the pride of ownership and the exclusivity are the reasons that many of us spend so much on our beloved clubs - Long may it continue!

[Mjr. D]

In my (limited) experience the sheer quality of materials, craftmanship and attention to detail finishing, place the JDM equipment in a totally different category to the US/China OEM's, the price we pay for our HO'ing of JDM gear reflects this! The domestic markets in the US and Europe would not stand the price point that JDM equipment is marketed at. My PRGR T3 with Axiv V has a retail tag of nearly $1000 USD, compare that to the average OEM driver at $300, is my PRGR worth 3 times a Callaway X460 or a Cobra M Speed, possibly not, would the average US or European golfer pay that amount of money, certainly not!

I can honestly say that in over 30 years of playing this game I have never owned anything that came close to my newly acquired Japanese clubs in terms of quality, feel and playability.

But the real reason that we TSG members are so devoted to our JDM clubs - the kudos of owning something so special, the pride of ownership and the exclusivity are the reasons that many of us spend so much on our beloved clubs - Long may it continue!

Your last sentence was beautifully accurate!

[Blader-X]

American domestic clubs don't even touch the JDM models. Feel is much more enhanced. American pros don't play JDM equipment because they don't get paid to. However, heres the secret; the "American" clubs they play with aren't American at all. Quite a few of them are made in Japan, mostly at Endo to very exacting tolerances. Most of the OEM's send their specs to the best of the best in Japan to make the clubs the pros play. The Japanese clubs we play with here at TSG are made to much the same exacting tolerances depending upon the company and where they are made. American domestic equipment available to the consumer varies considerably in specs and has nowhere near the feel of the JDM stuff.

I'm a convert to JDM equip going on a year now and have never enjoyed the game more. In fact it was early last year where I had grown weary of the American clubs I was playing because I felt it should be better than what I was experiencing. Lo and behold I found TSG (while searching mind you, for TourStage equip) and the rest is history. Now I have Epon and with all the customization they offer, I'm loving and I mean just loving the clubs. I've been playing golf for some time now and have never been happier with my equipment. My mood and scores are proof of that.

[idrive]

American domestic clubs don't even touch the JDM models. Feel is much more enhanced. American pros don't play JDM equipment because they don't get paid to. However, heres the secret; the "American" clubs they play with aren't American at all. Quite a few of them are made in Japan, mostly at Endo to very exacting tolerances. Most of the OEM's send their specs to the best of the best in Japan to make the clubs the pros play. The Japanese clubs we play with here at TSG are made to much the same exacting tolerances depending upon the company and where they are made. American domestic equipment available to the consumer varies considerably in specs and has nowhere near the feel of the JDM stuff.

I'm a convert to JDM equip going on a year now and have never enjoyed the game more. In fact it was early last year where I had grown weary of the American clubs I was playing because I felt it should be better than what I was experiencing. Lo and behold I found TSG (while searching mind you, for TourStage equip) and the rest is history. Now I have Epon and with all the customization they offer, I'm loving and I mean just loving the clubs. I've been playing golf for some time now and have never been happier with my equipment. My mood and scores are proof of that.

My feelings and experiences exactly.

Edited April 11, 2007 by idrive

[Henry]

Great post and great comments from everyone! I will throw my 2 cents in.. Ultimately, as Chris rightfully points out, you still have to have a swing no matter what equipment you purchase. Maybe some equipment may improve a swing flaw but I don't think it really matters if it is US or Japan. I also agree with Gocchin. Whether JDM is better than American or vice versa, it is of course all subjective and personal.

I have been playing with Japan brands for 3 years now and will never go back to domestic. Is my handicap lower now? No. Am I hitting the ball farther now? A little bit (still looking for correct shaft/head combo).

For me, my Tourstage irons have a better feel at impact compared to my previous domestic irons. My ERC Hyper Driver feels like I can hit it just about anywhere on the face and it still goes far and straight. I definitely do notice a difference with my Fourteen wedges as they do produce more spin than my US Cleveland models. Finally, my Zomo putter definitely rolls better than my Scotty Cameron.

Again this is subjective but imo, I feel that the Japan brands I play are something special. I played my first round with some new people last week and one guy looked at my Hyper ERC Driver and thought it was a knockoff. He then looked at my irons and thought I purchased them at K-Mart. What a great feeling I had knowing that I have something that very few peolple know about or understand.

For me, a Japan only brand provides satisfaction to me knowing that I am playing with clubs that look better, feel better and play better.

[ClubHoUno]

But the real reason that we TSG members are so devoted to our JDM clubs - the kudos of owning something so special, the pride of ownership and the exclusivity are the reasons that many of us spend so much on our beloved clubs - Long may it continue!

You said it first - and you're SOOO right

[Blader-X]

Just one more thought about what makes the JDM clubs so special is this site and the vision Chris (TourSpecGolfer) has had and continues to have for this site. If you've ever dealt with Chris you know from a customer standpoint he's very respectable and is always trying to get it right. The golf business is not an easy nor always profitable route but its the work that Chris and Jacque (and others) put into it that makes it great. One last thing, Chris is always reinvesting back into TourSpec to continue to bring us all the great products we continue to enjoy.

[gocchin]

Really awesome feedback from everyone and this just shows what a mature and respectable forum this is. When I first saw this topic, I thought "uh oh, here comes the possibility of a flame war" but no, everyone has posted great points and been very very respectable. I applaud you all and it's one of the reasons why I love being here. Thanks.

[Phillip Alexander]

I picked up a Taylor 510 from the Japanese Tour Van.

The feel out of the middle is very close to persimmon.

The real conundrum...... do you give Taylor Made the credit...... or the Japanese Tour Van.

Either way I love it!!

[Seahawks]

Isn't "better" a subjective thing? What's good for one person is bad for the next.

Honestly, I think the NEEDS are different between the Japanese and American markets. That need drives the product... whatever it may be.

I think it's pretty safe to say that on average, the American golfer has a higher swing speed. That being true... the golfer might need a different bend profile and different CG placement in the head to get the desired results. Now if a person with a slower swing speed tried this product, of course they would not like it... it doesn't fit their NEED. What they would need is a shaft that spins the ball more and a head that gets the ball up quick.

What technology does each one have that the other doesn't? What different materials are used? Heck, they are all pretty much made in the same place, right? Are you going to tell me that they use different material? Maybe they won't care about assembling this product vs. that?

Just trying to see how you can measure "better". What "fits" is the best.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Isn't "better" a subjective thing? What's good for one person is bad for the next.

Honestly, I think the NEEDS are different between the Japanese and American markets. That need drives the product... whatever it may be.

I think it's pretty safe to say that on average, the American golfer has a higher swing speed. That being true... the golfer might need a different bend profile and different CG placement in the head to get the desired results. Now if a person with a slower swing speed tried this product, of course they would not like it... it doesn't fit their NEED. What they would need is a shaft that spins the ball more and a head that gets the ball up quick.

What technology does each one have that the other doesn't? What different materials are used? Heck, they are all pretty much made in the same place, right? Are you going to tell me that they use different material? Maybe they won't care about assembling this product vs. that?

Just trying to see how you can measure "better". What "fits" is the best.

Kinda, Sorta, Not Really...

X-Drive is more driver than 95% of golfers can handle. Some Japanese drivers only come in X flex, just several years ago Japan was selling drivers with 1.7* open face angles stock, like Fourteen and Bridgestone. Good Strong players like forged players cavity backs yet 90% of America's clubs are cast while the opposite is true for Japan. As far as needs, the lengths are a quarter to half inch shorter and the lie angle half a degree flatter. There are even more Muscle back irons in Japan. Also U.S drivers lofts almost never play true and isnt it strange how they always play much higher but never lower? In fact more smaller headed drivers come out in Japan than the U.S by far.

Its all about options, in Japan you can get noodle shafts with gold plated clubs or very stiff open faced gear for the hard core golfer. Its just great they have options for people who desire more than average.

Heck, they are all pretty much made in the same place, right? Are you going to tell me that they use different material?

Yes DIFFERENT materials! American brands when they do make a forged club use 1035 or 1045 non J.I.S standard steel I cant find a single iron in Japan forged of 1035 and 1045.

In woods you will see lots of Carbon and Cast Titanium because Forged and specialty heat treated near pure Ti cost a fortune, also for each piece or process used in building a club the more it will cost to produce. if you look at U.S drivers and how many pieces are used they require less plasma welding. Fact of the matter is U.S brands are still boasting about technology that has been standard use for years in Japan.

and Yes Quality control is almost always much tighter with JDM gear.

[drpino]

Yes DIFFERENT materials! American brands when they do make a forged club use 1035 or 1045 non J.I.S standard steel I cant find a single iron in Japan forged of 1035 and 1045.

FYI, that's not entirely true:

Callaway X-Forged = 1020 carbon

Titleist = 1025 carbon or 410 stainless

Ben Hogan Apex Plus = 1020 carbon

Nike Forged Blades = 1030 carbon

TM RAC MB = 1025 carbon

[+TourSpecGolfer]

FYI, that's not entirely true:

Callaway X-Forged = 1020 carbon

Titleist = 1025 carbon or 410 stainless

Ben Hogan Apex Plus = 1020 carbon

Nike Forged Blades = 1030 carbon

TM RAC MB = 1025 carbon

FYI you need to learn before you talk, or at least get up to par on manufacturing.

Callaway X-Forged ( MADE IN JAPAN )

Titleist = 1025 Forged by Endo Thailand Tour Issue Forged in Japan

Ben Hogan Forged Endo Thailand Tour Issue Forged in Japan

TM RAC MB is forged by Nelson... poo poo

Nike Forged Blades Endo Thailand Tour Issue Forged in Japan

Titleist has always understood that good players need quality forgings, Callaway fell off the map until roger cleveland who understands Japanese manufacturing skills pulled them back to the right direction. FYI Roger Cleveland lives in Japan now too.

Ok so you took four forged U.S products and just found out all but 1 were forged by a Japanese company.

how about you fill in the other 90% for us? You cant because most of its cast. Proof is in the pudding!

Also you didnt even mention J.I.S grades of metals do you think hardness rating is equal between chinese 1025 vs Japanese 1025? nope JDM is softer H rated.

Do you think its just coincidence Tiger has only played clubs forged in Japan and wont play anything else? Do you think phil's hand made drivers were made in Japan by Mistake while the retails were mass produced in China?

Fact is high percentage of JDM clubs are forged with even tungsten inserts in long irons, while majority of U.S clubs are older yet proven technology, lower quality materials, mass produced, lower quality control... list goes on, FYI these are facts.

[drpino]

sorry if my inclusion of a common acronym (FYI) offended you....but WOW with the attitude, i didn't lace my post with any.

you stated "American brands when they do make a forged club use 1035 or 1045 non J.I.S standard steel" which in no way indicated you meant the country of manufacturing...but rather "American brands" regardless of where they produce their products....which all of the brands i listed are (as opposed to epon, miura, mizuno, etc.). and i'm not referring to the oft-coveted "tour issue" stuff. i'm talking about mass-market stuff which i assumed your broad sweeping generalization did as well.

i concede you know lightyears more than i regarding manufacturing materials and processes (i can gather that from reading your posts) so please don't take my posts as attempts at defending US products against JDM stuff...i never once stated that i thought they were on par with each other. in fact, i believe JDM stuff is better quality, more advanced technology and better quality control. i was merely trying to point out that many US market forged clubs use softer graded materials than you had alluded to. nothing to get defensive about really.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

sorry if my inclusion of a common acronym (FYI) offended you....but WOW with the attitude, i didn't lace my post with any.

you stated "American brands when they do make a forged club use 1035 or 1045 non J.I.S standard steel" which in no way indicated you meant the country of manufacturing...but rather "American brands" regardless of where they produce their products....which all of the brands i listed are (as opposed to epon, miura, mizuno, etc.). and i'm not referring to the oft-coveted "tour issue" stuff. i'm talking about mass-market stuff which i assumed your broad sweeping generalization did as well.

i concede you know lightyears more than i regarding manufacturing materials and processes (i can gather that from reading your posts) so please don't take my posts as attempts at defending US products against JDM stuff...i never once stated that i thought they were on par with each other. in fact, i believe JDM stuff is better quality, more advanced technology and better quality control. i was merely trying to point out that many US market forged clubs use softer graded materials than you had alluded to. nothing to get defensive about really.

My apologies, heated topic for me because I just hate having to explain myself over and over again e-mail/pm/forum/phone.. nuff said, I get your point and appreciate your support.

On a side note, if you take ENDO out of the picture, Titanium woods would have hit the market 2-5 years later, I was told this not by Endo but their competitor in China who happens to make the majority of OEM's drivers.

[Seahawks]

Kinda, Sorta, Not Really...

X-Drive is more driver than 95% of golfers can handle. Some Japanese drivers only come in X flex, just several years ago Japan was selling drivers with 1.7* open face angles stock, like Fourteen and Bridgestone. Good Strong players like forged players cavity backs yet 90% of America's clubs are cast while the opposite is true for Japan. As far as needs, the lengths are a quarter to half inch shorter and the lie angle half a degree flatter. There are even more Muscle back irons in Japan. Also U.S drivers lofts almost never play true and isnt it strange how they always play much higher but never lower? In fact more smaller headed drivers come out in Japan than the U.S by far.

Its all about options, in Japan you can get noodle shafts with gold plated clubs or very stiff open faced gear for the hard core golfer. Its just great they have options for people who desire more than average.

Yes DIFFERENT materials! American brands when they do make a forged club use 1035 or 1045 non J.I.S standard steel tsg_smiley_crazy.gif I cant find a single iron in Japan forged of 1035 and 1045.

In woods you will see lots of Carbon and Cast Titanium because Forged and specialty heat treated near pure Ti cost a fortune, also for each piece or process used in building a club the more it will cost to produce. if you look at U.S drivers and how many pieces are used they require less plasma welding. Fact of the matter is U.S brands are still boasting about technology that has been standard use for years in Japan.

and Yes Quality control is almost always much tighter with JDM gear.

Good points... and I'd have to agree, especially since my irons are forged in Japan. They are Traditional Tour Edition Blades and they are sweet.

In regards to the lack of accuracy on lofts in the U.S... I wonder if that's done because the American golfing population has no clue as to what they need? You know... the ego thing. Like you stated, the lofts always err on the side of more rather than less... and most amateur golfers need more loft.