Low torque not for slicers?

[Mjr. D]

I paid $200 to get club fit today at Hotstiks Golf. They told me what i expected. I need an X-stiff shaft, low spin head, medium/low launch. The thing that surprised me was, they told me i don't want a shaft with too low of torque. I was slicing the ball pretty bad today and he told me lower torque will only cause me to slice it more, since it prevents the club from twisting. He ended up fitting me in a Bridgestone J330R 8.5 with a Diamana X-stiff Blueboard, 83g. My swing speed was on avg, about 134, but my spin was somewhere in the 3155 - 4729 depending on what driver he had me swing. Which is very high. He told me the it was because i was getting a lot of side spin on the ball which was making the ball spin back more as well. Anyway, just wondering if anyone could tell me if the low torque not good for a person who has a tendency to fade/slice the ball is accurate or not. Thanks, i appreciate it.

[Blader-X]

Hey Mjr,

So did you end up with the Diamana?

In terms of the torque, you'll find differing opinions about what the "right" torque is or even if it plays that much of a role in shafts. Also keep in mind that the torque a company assigns its shaft can differ across companies depending upon what method they use. Torque by definition is the ability of a shaft to resist twisting. That being said, what I gather from your post is that he said you don't want a low torque shaft as this would cause you to slice more since it won't allow the clubhead to twist? I don't really buy that but I would love to hear what some other more knowledgable TSG'ers have to say. Sounds like he's saying that since you have an open club face at impact (reason for slice/fade), if you have a shaft with a higher torque, this allows the clubhead to close either before the shot or at impact. I don't think torque works that way. In fact its my understanding (again I could be misinformed here) that the torque relates to as the club is coming into the shot. If the torque is high the clubhead will be twisting and opening the club face producing an even bigger slice. For someone with your clubhead speed this can only spell disaster. That being said the torque of the Diamana is 3.1 which is still considered low.

Its my opinion you need to go with a different shaft than that Diamana. I have the same exact shaft in TourEdge Exotics 3 wood and a Sonartec TRC 18. I also used to play a Nak driver with the 73 gram shaft x-stiff. I found that that shaft produced way too much spin for my taste. And I know you swing it faster than I. I'm thinking you need to go with the JDM shafts. Why not give the Roddio a try or the Ozik. Better technology in those shafts with a five weave pattern in the Roddio. Even Graphite Design I believe is a better shaft. I say Ozik in an XX or the Roddio in the WA series. I think thats the better way to go. Just my feeling.

[Duffer19]

I respectfully disagree with Blader that I think your fitter is correct in saying a higher or mid torque would be better for your swing. At the same time, it is just a stop gap solution with your high swing speed. Unfortunately there are only a few shafts in JDM that would cater your swing speed. The high side spin, I believe, is generated by you cutting across the ball with different timing of your hip vs. your hands. A stiffer tip would help somewhat but you should try an experiment of slowing down your swing to 70 to 80% (which allow the hip and hands to catch up with each other) disregarding distance for awhile and note the result. Golf is not just a game of distance but rather the end result. You would see that you would lose 20 yards but less spin all around. This is a no cost experiement before spending $300 or $400 for a high end shaft that might not help.

I also would be experiementing with a Diamana White which is a tip stiff, butt soft shaft. The white would be the opposite of what I am currently using.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Duffer19

[Duffer19]

I paid $200 to get club fit today at Hotstiks Golf. They told me what i expected. I need an X-stiff shaft, low spin head, medium/low launch. The thing that surprised me was, they told me i don't want a shaft with too low of torque. I was slicing the ball pretty bad today and he told me lower torque will only cause me to slice it more, since it prevents the club from twisting. He ended up fitting me in a Bridgestone J330R 8.5 with a Diamana X-stiff Blueboard, 83g. My swing speed was on avg, about 134, but my spin was somewhere in the 3155 - 4729 depending on what driver he had me swing. Which is very high. He told me the it was because i was getting a lot of side spin on the ball which was making the ball spin back more as well. Anyway, just wondering if anyone could tell me if the low torque not good for a person who has a tendency to fade/slice the ball is accurate or not. Thanks, i appreciate it.

Just look at the Golf Gear shaft test again ans your ss is basically off their chart. For Class 5 test, the ss is approx 110 mph and ball speed of 137 mph. Their best shaft was the Diamana White D83 X but your ss is 134 mph with ball speed probably in the 150 mph range, as high or higher than Mr. Wood. A JDM X flex can barely handle you ss IMO. You could be better off with a Matrix stiff tip shaft.

[Mjr. D]

Just look at the Golf Gear shaft test again ans your ss is basically off their chart. For Class 5 test, the ss is approx 110 mph and ball speed of 137 mph. Their best shaft was the Diamana White D83 X but your ss is 134 mph with ball speed probably in the 150 mph range, as high or higher than Mr. Wood. A JDM X flex can barely handle you ss IMO. You could be better off with a Matrix stiff tip shaft.

Ya i don't know what i'm going to do yet. I can swing easier for sure, but i'd rather master my ability to swing it hard. Plus it's more fun. My ball speed was 194 yesterday with a 44.5 in driver. My best is 206 with a regular (not long drive driver). Where is this "Golf Gear" shaft test? Where can i view this? Sounds interesting.

By the way, the explanation you have about club head twisting is what this fitter told me. I don't know whether to go with his analysis or not, just because i was really hitting the ball poorly yesterday. Might change things. He told me a woman's ball will travel much further than a men's ball by the way, just much much more difficult to control. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the help guys.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Ive heard it both ways but here is my sketchy take on this:

One of my thoughts:

Torque really plays different based on the way the shaft is designed and made. For most of my golfing years i thought 3 was to much, then 3.5 now 4.3 isn't out of the question. Not sure if my reasoning is valid but it seems to me that if its the proper weight and flex and its got a nice bend profile that aids your swing then your set. 1.7 torque or 4.3. I have had some master shaft makers and fitters tell me not to pay attention to the Torque numbers so much. It sorta makes a little sense to me but I'm just not sure.

My other take:

The head is not coming around for a slicer or they are coming over the top in many cases and this tells me torque "rotational force" would help. It just makes simple sense. The less Torque the less it will twist.

So those imo are the two side to the story. Not sure how you guy feel about it but most golfers cant tell the difference if you told them otherwise.

[Duffer19]

Ya i don't know what i'm going to do yet. I can swing easier for sure, but i'd rather master my ability to swing it hard. Plus it's more fun. My ball speed was 194 yesterday with a 44.5 in driver. My best is 206 with a regular (not long drive driver). Where is this "Golf Gear" shaft test? Where can i view this? Sounds interesting.

By the way, the explanation you have about club head twisting is what this fitter told me. I don't know whether to go with his analysis or not, just because i was really hitting the ball poorly yesterday. Might change things. He told me a woman's ball will travel much further than a men's ball by the way, just much much more difficult to control. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the help guys.

You swing and ball speed must be a record here at TSG. My ball speed is 125 with a max of 130 mph but it would be all over the place at that speed. Golf Gear is a Japanese golf magazine that conducts a lot of club, shaft and ball tests. The last shaft test is in the May issue but it is in Japanese and not available online.

[Blader-X]

I spent some time at work last night on this subject as I find it very interesting. The one thing I've noticed when looking at many different shafts is that the torque rating lowers as a shaft becomes heavier. Makes sense, since you have more material on the shaft for that weight. Torque is definitely defined as the ability of a shaft to resist twisting. Its agreed upon the the lower the torque rating, the better that shaft to resist twisting. However, there is no industry standard and so torque ratings are not uniform across companies. I viewed many clubfitting sites and all seem to agree that higher torque benefits slower swingers and lower torque benefits fast swingers. Reasoning they give is that with fast swingers, they put more force on the shaft which makes the shaft want to twist in relation to the clubhead; thus, faster swingers need lower torque. Helps in squaring the clubface. But here's the thing, I know that when the companies measure a torque of a shaft, they're not measuring it with the club being swung. Its placed into whatever device they decide to use and the shaft is twisted. That's a static measurement and the golf swing is dynamic. There's more forces at work on the shaft than just a lateral twisting of the clubhead. You've got the hands relation on the club, the weight of the clubhead, the clubhead's relation to the shaft, even gravity has an effect to some extent. So like Chris stated, some clubfitters don't even concern themselves with the torque since really, there is no standard in its measurement. Having a science background I can understand that point of view. I can also understand that as the shaft becomes heavier its more resistant to twisting thus the torque will be lower. Steel shafts have lower torque numbers than graphite since steel is more resistant to twisting. What I'm still a little confused on here is why the clubfitter we're talking about here stated you needed a higher torque shaft, then recommended a shaft whose torque I would not consider that high. Believe me I'm not trying to start arguments here but really trying to understand this all. I'm kind of thinking that torque is really not that big of a deal. I'm thinking its more of a result of the way a shaft is built and not something one should base a shaft fitting on. I'm thinking the way the shaft is put together, its materials and they way those materials are incorporated into the shaft is a bigger deal. More the shafts profile and how it bends.

Mjr. D you stated in an earlier post that you used an Accra shaft which had a torque rating of 1.5 and that you loved that shaft. When you compare that shaft with that of the Diamana which do you feel you hit better? I know that your swing was off with the Diamana but its my feeling that if you liked the Accra much better than the Diamana, go with something a little more like that. I also feel your problem is not so much with the shafts but with the swing. I'm thinking go with a shaft which is more in line with your swing characteristics and improve your swing along that line. I can feel you about wanting to master your aggressive swing. That's the way I used to approach this game early on. Its the very same thing me and my swing coach worked on. I used to be ultra aggressive through the ball. The funny thing about golf is, that doesn't work. It needs to be a controlled aggression, not an all out aggression. If your aim is to have better scores then you need to tone the aggression down to where you're ball striking is more consistent allowing you to keep the ball in the fairway. If your aim is to have fun and don't worry about the scores then by all means have at it and swing away. Just know that at those high aggressive speeds, you're going to hit that errant shot. That clubhead just can't keep up with speed you're swinging it at. Think about Tiger. He's got argueably one the best swings ever and he's prone to the really errant shot from time to time. He just goes at it so hard. Unless you have a broom handle for a shaft. Then that clubhead will always be there. Then it comes down to be able to square the clubface in time. I mean no disrespect to anyone else or even the fitter, but knowing you're swing speed and you're characteristics I wouldn't put you in the very same shaft which I've used with good results and expect it to work for you. I really think you would overpower that Diamana, unless they tipped it quite a bit. Having said all this I really find it fascinating and want to know the absolute truth. I just don't know if there is an absolute truth to this all. Now, if what the clubfitter says is correct, then why not go with the Ozik FM-7? You could go XX and its torque rating is 3.6. Have it installed a little long and untipped. If it feels took weak at the tip, have it taken out and tipped some then cut to your final measurement of length.

I'm the first to admit I'm no expert at this. But I've been playing for a long time and have gone through a few different shafts in search of the "right" one. I've gone the fitting route but I tell you, what I was fitted for didn't work out on the course and it was through trial and error that I came to find what really works for me. I'm not discounting club fitters. Really good ones can make a huge difference. But don't discount your own feel and what's going on with your swing. Another thing I've come to learn is that golf is everchanging and the swing can change day by day. I do know that when its going well, just about any shaft is going to work.

Its definitely a difficult thing but I myself really find it fascinating and I love this site because there's so many different perspectives. Having all that I believe helps one to make better, more informed decisions.

By the way, how many shafts did they have you try? How long did they spend with you and did they mention anything about having a custom shaft done. Seems to me you're specs are so high up there, custom such as XXX might be needed.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Blader-X

[Duffer19]

This is one great post Blader.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

When you say slicing it bad, on the vector how many yards offline did it say? 30+?

[Mjr. D]

Blader, you are primo! You're like a caring father. Great great post.

I spent about 1.5 hours with the guy. He was alright, i wasn't overally impressed, but i'm sure he knew what he was doing. On a side note, his swing was quite gross looking. Haha, anyway, i tried the following clubs.

My J33R 8.5 with Aldila VS proto, stiff flex.

New Taylormade Burner 9.5

FT5 9.5

Hibore XL Tour they didn't mark which shafts i used with these heads and i can't recall. I was changing clubs and shafts every 8 swings.

I'm not sure if i'm reading this chart properly or not, but under the heading "Offline" there are some - ratings and a lot without a + or a -. I'm seeing 35.8, 1.4, 17.6, 54, and it appears these are all averages with different clubs. The weird thing is, the 1.4 is with the HiBore and i hit that club the most offline. Go figure.

I like what u wrote about feel being more important than stats Blader. I agree. I really thought the Accra i tried was an awesome shaft. Granted, i don't know what i'm looking for when swining a shaft, i just know i hit every ball with it dead straight and i felt some nice kick. I tried a Ozik shaft in a 3 wood at this fitting and i liked that shaft a lot too. It was a Altus, not sure of the stats. He just quickly grabbed it and had me swing it. Felt very smooth. So maybe i ought to give the FM-7 a shot, although, i noticed Chris removed it off the site. Are they still available? Thanks fellas.

[Blader-X]

Blader, you are primo! You're like a caring father. Great great post.

I spent about 1.5 hours with the guy. He was alright, i wasn't overally impressed, but i'm sure he knew what he was doing. On a side note, his swing was quite gross looking. Haha, anyway, i tried the following clubs.

My J33R 8.5 with Aldila VS proto, stiff flex.

New Taylormade Burner 9.5

FT5 9.5

Hibore XL Tour they didn't mark which shafts i used with these heads and i can't recall. I was changing clubs and shafts every 8 swings.

I'm not sure if i'm reading this chart properly or not, but under the heading "Offline" there are some - ratings and a lot without a + or a -. I'm seeing 35.8, 1.4, 17.6, 54, and it appears these are all averages with different clubs. The weird thing is, the 1.4 is with the HiBore and i hit that club the most offline. Go figure.

I like what u wrote about feel being more important than stats Blader. I agree. I really thought the Accra i tried was an awesome shaft. Granted, i don't know what i'm looking for when swining a shaft, i just know i hit every ball with it dead straight and i felt some nice kick. I tried a Ozik shaft in a 3 wood at this fitting and i liked that shaft a lot too. It was a Altus, not sure of the stats. He just quickly grabbed it and had me swing it. Felt very smooth. So maybe i ought to give the FM-7 a shot, although, i noticed Chris removed it off the site. Are they still available? Thanks fellas.

Hey Mjr, one thing to make sure of next time you get fit is to use the same ball you're currently using or if not available, use the same brand of ball for every club that way the numbers correspond. Otherwise if you're hitting different balls very tough to tell if its the club or ball.

Sounds like the Accra is the shaft for you if you were getting such good results. The 7-m is still listed in the proshop but I would definitely ask for a fitting from TourSpecGirl.

Here's the listing. http://forum.tourspecgolf.com/index.ph...23213&st=50

The F7-M is listed in the Proshop, under the "Shafts and Grips" section, page 3.

As far as heads are concerned, go with what is pleasing to your eye. Sounds like you like the Bridgestone and if its giving you low spin numbers I'd say stick with that. Not to mention that club has gotten quite a few rave reviews on this site.

[nightgolfer]

Shaft torque is one quirkly issue. I've been making clubs for about 15 years. Here is what I think I have learned.

Torque has two effects.

First one is the head twist during the swing. Some say the head torques open on the backswing and back to sqaure and then closed as the head enters the impact area. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether that is right or not. For the head to torque significantly means huge force from air resistance. Somehow I don't think so.

Second one is the head will torque at impact. The more torque the more the head twists at impact if hit is off dead center. This now gets into gear effect and head position at impact.

As you can see the physics get pretty complicated with all the factors involved. Until they have cameras and sensors good enough, this will be a guessing game.

Further, a lot depends on your swing frequency in addition to raw speed as well as how you generate the head speed (hands, body or both).

I have always felt that the less torque in the equation the better the clubface can be controlled, the general premise being lower torque equals less dispersion.

If you want to test low versus high torque, buy a knock off driver head, and try it with a lightweight steel shaft, then pull it and try it with inexpensive graphite shaft with a 3.0 or so torque rating. This is a cheap experiment.

With your swingspeed, you might also want to try a titanium shaft in your driver.