JDM Irons - S200 Shafts

[idrive]

It seems that many JDM Iron makers use the S200 as their stock shaft.

I am curious why this is so. After hitting the Golds and few others I can honestly say that I like the shaft. But, it still surprises me that, that is the shaft used by the makers with so many other shafts out there, including JDM shafts.

Thoughts??

[Spoon]

It seems that many JDM Iron makers use the S200 as their stock shaft.

I am curious why this is so. After hitting the Golds and few others I can honestly say that I like the shaft. But, it still surprises me that, that is the shaft used by the makers with so many other shafts out there, including JDM shafts.

Thoughts??

jeff if you hadnt mentioned i would have thought they used nspro. most of the jdm clubs that i see being sold in graphite all have nspro as an option.

[Redhaze737]

This from a US manufacturer regarding steel shafts after I asked why they only use Dynamic - NOT Dynamic Gold but Dynamic:

"The shafts you rec'd in our irons are specifically designed by and for us...each CPM between clubs is 5-6 frequencies and total weight difference of about 7 grams..and swing weight +/- 1. If you take a black marker and balance each club on your finger and then mark the balance point of each club on the shaft and then stand them up you'll see a nice straight linear line on each club, right above the steps of each shaft."

"Each club has inherent MOI that allows you to punch shots or "go for it". The shaft only loads depending upon the amount of work applied. There's no two shaft alike...as different as fingerprints. You name the shaft, we've tried it..Nippon has kick and balance problems...Dynamic Gold, trust me are not as good as the Dynamics we use..call me sometime and I'll tell you how the Gold came about..The Dynamics are still truly the best shaft made, we make certain the 'Distribution of Mass" is equal thru out the shaft and this gives the clubs from a "Jump On" to a "small punch shot" repeatability in feel and loading and why not one club feels any different from another stick."

Here's what they say regarding forged: "On forged , yes years ago forged was the ultimate...but no longer. With advanced processes, such as our pressure cast is the ultimate , but also the most costly. Our irons are made with 4 different metals that meld into each club head....which in turns gives a MUCH softer feel to the clubs and better feedback. Very few forged are still truly forged today...they may say "Form Forged"..as ???? does which is not forged at all, but just plain old cold formed. Forged clubs are soft and was the only option available years ago...but our clubs for example are softer then forged, and far more stable in maintaining the loft and lie settings."

"Our R & D which is headed by myself..has the experience of a few of us being former players, a PhD in engineering and understand Feel and metallurgy. Also the only club company owned and operated by PGA professionals and ex -tour players. The same clubs you have are identical as we send to our Tour players, same shafts, same everything..no bait and switch."

I haven't called him yet to get the skinny on the Gold. I've cut and pasted, but have not changed the intent of what he is saying. I removed the name of the Company he said is not forged. It's not Japanese, but a well known US Co. All for what it's worth.

Edited July 12, 2007 by Redhaze737

[Blader-X]

I just think it comes down to being able to sell to the majority of people who golf.

1. Most can hit the S200 therefore it makes sense to use a shaft that most of your customers can play.

2. True Temper has probably the most name recognition out there. Yes there's others, but most are familiar with TT and they do have a decent product.

3. The S200 is a cheap shaft in terms of cost but still fits the bill and lasts a long time.

The majority of golfers who buy clubs don't get into like a lot of us on this site do. For golfers like us, those companies offer options and if they don't the crazy golfers like us will pay for customization outside of the company.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

This from a US manufacturer regarding steel shafts after I asked why they only use Dynamic - NOT Dynamic Gold but Dynamic:

"The shafts you rec'd in our irons are specifically designed by and for us...each CPM between clubs is 5-6 frequencies and total weight difference of about 7 grams..and swing weight +/- 1. If you take a black marker and balance each club on your finger and then mark the balance point of each club on the shaft and then stand them up you'll see a nice straight linear line on each club, right above the steps of each shaft."

"Each club has inherent MOI that allows you to punch shots or "go for it". The shaft only loads depending upon the amount of work applied. There's no two shaft alike...as different as fingerprints. You name the shaft, we've tried it..Nippon has kick and balance problems...Dynamic Gold, trust me are not as good as the Dynamics we use..call me sometime and I'll tell you how the Gold came about..The Dynamics are still truly the best shaft made, we make certain the 'Distribution of Mass" is equal thru out the shaft and this gives the clubs from a "Jump On" to a "small punch shot" repeatability in feel and loading and why not one club feels any different from another stick."

Here's what they say regarding forged: "On forged , yes years ago forged was the ultimate...but no longer. With advanced processes, such as our pressure cast is the ultimate , but also the most costly. Our irons are made with 4 different metals that meld into each club head....which in turns gives a MUCH softer feel to the clubs and better feedback. Very few forged are still truly forged today...they may say "Form Forged"..as ???? does which is not forged at all, but just plain old cold formed. Forged clubs are soft and was the only option available years ago...but our clubs for example are softer then forged, and far more stable in maintaining the loft and lie settings."

"Our R & D which is headed by myself..has the experience of a few of us being former players, a PhD in engineering and understand Feel and metallurgy. Also the only club company owned and operated by PGA professionals and ex -tour players. The same clubs you have are identical as we send to our Tour players, same shafts, same everything..no bait and switch."

I haven't called him yet to get the skinny on the Gold. I've cut and pasted, but have not changed the intent of what he is saying. I removed the name of the Company he said is not forged. It's not Japanese, but a well known US Co. All for what it's worth.

This guy is full of crap, I would love to know what brand is saying this stuff

[+TourSpecGolfer]

On the S200 topic its simply because of weight and preference of the Japanese player due to their build and strength profile.

On a side note the reason why Rifle Shafts are no longer available in Japan is because the quality has not stabilized after True Temper took over. Yes the shafts sent to Japan are usually of a tighter quality control.

Black Golds purchased in Japan say " Made in Japan " where the USA versions are built in America.

[Redhaze737]

This guy is full of crap, I would love to know what brand is saying this stuff

I'll let him know what you think. Maybe we can get something going. I did a few 'uh whats' when I read his emails. All in all it doesn't make much difference in that each to his own. In my mind it's just fun to hear different opinions.

I figured it would get a loud response on this forum with all of us interested in forged and JDM equipment. It all started because this company only makes cast irons. I thought that was somewhat strange with all the high end forged equipment being produced. I think 'full of crap' may be somewhat strong as I think these people have a good rep in the industry and with US professional players. Whether their opinion is the end all to be all is perhaps another thing. Once again, as I say - to each his own.

I'll see if I can get a little more response going from your expressed opinion.

[Phillip Alexander]

I must say the guys and girls on the site have a soft spot for the Nippons.

Personally I think they play better than the TT Dynamics......but this has been well covered in another post.

[xxio]

Aren't Dynamic Golds just weight sorted Dynamics?

TT says so.

Clubmakers that have profiled both shafts say so.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I'll let him know what you think. Maybe we can get something going. I did a few 'uh whats' when I read his emails. All in all it doesn't make much difference in that each to his own. In my mind it's just fun to hear different opinions.

I figured it would get a loud response on this forum with all of us interested in forged and JDM equipment. It all started because this company only makes cast irons. I thought that was somewhat strange with all the high end forged equipment being produced. I think 'full of crap' may be somewhat strong as I think these people have a good rep in the industry and with US professional players. Whether their opinion is the end all to be all is perhaps another thing. Once again, as I say - to each his own.

I'll see if I can get a little more response going from your expressed opinion.

Get him on here, ill take his facts and send it to a couple of factories R&D guys or Material experts and see what they come back with. I would also love to get some samples of these clubs to compare. We can have a little debate

His opinion is exactly that but mine is based off of the best materials and process, yes casting has come a long way but its still not the preference of U.S tour players and for sure not the Japanese players who are even more spoiled that the U.S Tour guys.

Its like being a chef and cooking with substandard ingredients to save money or time, the recipe just doesn't come out as rich or pure, this is the same with electronics and auto's to build the best you must have the best methods and start ground up using the best of everything.

I consider myself a conosuier of clubs, USDM & JDM and if I havent tasted these amazing unknown super castings I must, I will say i have tried the TM's, Pings, Clevelands, etc.. and many other castings yet none get close to Fourteen and Honma's castings, they dont even compare.

Casting vs Casting I can show this guy better, Forged vs Casting its no contest at all.

[ajaykkr]

Get him on here, ill take his facts and send it to a couple of factories R&D guys or Material experts and see what they come back with. I would also love to get some samples of these clubs to compare. We can have a little debate

His opinion is exactly that but mine is based off of the best materials and process, yes casting has come a long way but its still not the preference of U.S tour players and for sure not the Japanese players who are even more spoiled that the U.S Tour guys.

Its like being a chef and cooking with substandard ingredients to save money or time, the recipe just doesn't come out as rich or pure, this is the same with electronics and auto's to build the best you must have the best methods and start ground up using the best of everything.

I consider myself a conosuier of clubs, USDM & JDM and if I havent tasted these amazing unknown super castings I must, I will say i have tried the TM's, Pings, Clevelands, etc.. and many other castings yet none get close to Fourteen and Honma's castings, they dont even compare.

Casting vs Casting I can show this guy better, Forged vs Casting its no contest at all.

Not to disagree... but can somebody explain why the Fourteen TB 1000 prototype (cast) feels softer than the fourteen TB 1000 forged. it should be the other way around, but is not....

BTW, the fourteen forged feel is one of the softest ever.... my xblade 2 come close, but the fourteens beat it, but the cast versions beat the forged versions and they are supposedly the same club (design etc.)

Edited July 13, 2007 by ajaykkr

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Not to disagree... but can somebody explain why the Fourteen TB 1000 prototype (cast) feels softer than the fourteen TB 1000 forged. it should be the other way around, but is not....

BTW, the fourteen forged feel is one of the softest ever.... my xblade 2 come close, but the fourteens beat it, but the cast versions beat the forged versions and they are supposedly the same club (design etc.)

Fourteen 770-Cast vs 770-Forged, the cast version like the TB-PROTO does indeed feel softer, its easier to bend and also dings up quicker which shows its softer, but if you happen to be someone who thinks softer is better you can create super duper soft clubs via the Annealing process which is a softening process causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating and maintaining at a suitable temperature, and then cooling very slowly. It is used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure and improve cold working properties.

because of the way fourteen builds their castings. Its quite amazing and pretty unheard of in the golf industry but their clubs that their pro's play are forged due to preference at ENDO, also its worth to note fourteens wedges are cast as well.

Also if you were to not heat treat the metal after its been annealed you could bend the lie and loft with your hand only and with very little pressure.

IMO forging is not about making the softest clubs because if that was the goal its really simple to do by the lack of heat treatment which hardens it after annealing. It is more so the goal to produce a uniform grain pattern and finding the perfect feel which can differ based on ones taste, opinion, design and ball striking skills.

Whatever the case forging is superior to casting, milling, and rapid prototyping machines in quality golf club applications.

[idrive]

Not to disagree... but can somebody explain why the Fourteen TB 1000 prototype (cast) feels softer than the fourteen TB 1000 forged. it should be the other way around, but is not....

I am not bashing...

I'm just interested to know. Have you hit them side by side to compare for yourself

Do they both have the same shaft?? We all know some shafts have less vibration than others and feel better. Could this be why the cast feels softer?

Fourteen is one of the few Irons I have not hit, unfortunately.

Thanks for the feedback.

edit- Chris responded above while I was typing. Still curious tho.

Edited July 13, 2007 by idrive

[ajaykkr]

I am not bashing...

I'm just interested to know. Have you hit them side by side to compare for yourself

Do they both have the same shaft?? We all know some shafts have less vibration than others and feel better. Could this be why the cast feels softer?

Fourteen is one of the few Irons I have not hit, unfortunately.

Thanks for the feedback.

edit- Chris responded above while I was typing. Still curious tho.

Answer to your question is YES. and if you have not hit fourteen, give it a try. I dont like their loft separation, but they are a first class product

[ajaykkr]

Fourteen 770-Cast vs 770-Forged, the cast version like the TB-PROTO does indeed feel softer, its easier to bend and also dings up quicker which shows its softer, but if you happen to be someone who thinks softer is better you can create super duper soft clubs via the Annealing process which is a softening process causing changes in its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating and maintaining at a suitable temperature, and then cooling very slowly. It is used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure and improve cold working properties.

because of the way fourteen builds their castings. Its quite amazing and pretty unheard of in the golf industry but their clubs that their pro's play are forged due to preference at ENDO, also its worth to note fourteens wedges are cast as well.

Also if you were to not heat treat the metal after its been annealed you could bend the lie and loft with your hand only and with very little pressure.

IMO forging is not about making the softest clubs because if that was the goal its really simple to do by the lack of heat treatment which hardens it after annealing. It is more so the goal to produce a uniform grain pattern and finding the perfect feel which can differ based on ones taste, opinion, design and ball striking skills.

Whatever the case forging is superior to casting, milling, and rapid prototyping machines in quality golf club applications.

Not taking a view on forged vs cast... but responding to the original poster's quotes were on softness, not overall quality... (the quote specifically I was responding to was " Our irons are made with 4 different metals that meld into each club head....which in turns gives a MUCH softer feel to the clubs and better feedback")

I am not an expert on quality of golf clubs, but i have to say i was surprised that the fourteen cast was softer than the forged.....goes contrary to the established wisdom........

makes one wonder .....are there other aspects of modern casts that go against the established wisdom as it relates to forged clubs...

and BTW, i evaluate a club is whether it results in what my swing should result in? thats the main criteria. looks, feel, etc. are secondary, but important factors..

Edited July 13, 2007 by ajaykkr

[+TourSpecGolfer]

If this is " FEEL " golf which I'm having a feeling it could be don't even bother having them come on to debate this as it manufactures its gear at the lower end of the Chinese manufacturing spectrum.

[ajaykkr]

because of the way fourteen builds their castings. Its quite amazing and pretty unheard of in the golf industry but their clubs that their pro's play are forged due to preference at ENDO, also its worth to note fourteens wedges are cast as well.

Question? Where's the retail TB 1000 forged blade forged? are they forged at endo similar to the pro's clubs or somewhere else.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Question? Where's the retail TB 1000 forged blade forged? are they forged at endo similar to the pro's clubs or somewhere else.

They are Endo as well, just as the MR-23 and MR-23 MB's, J's weapon etc..

[ajaykkr]

They are Endo as well, just as the MR-23 and MR-23 MB's, J's weapon etc..

cool. ....