Lexus vs Merc

[chiromikey]

love your post and i think i can agree with just about all of it, including the dealer service rankings. i was fortunate in that my local service manager was beyond outstanding...which is why i mention actual dealer service went beyond the brand. my service manager was excited to find out that i had secretly allocated mclaren slr cams and retrofitted them into my e55 where most would have blackballed me from any kind of maintenance or warranty work. i also realize toyota has made super cars for decades but i meant that they had been out of the business since the supra (although if it wasn't for the aftermarket scene i'm not sure i'd really rank the supra as a legitimate super car).

[wmclarenf1]

I Don't mean to argue, I just love cars. I also love AMG's and the black series is just mental! Beautiful, AMG creates beasts dare I say best engine makers in the biz. They are german muscle cars and not at all a good comparison with something like a Lexus which isn't going for the same vibe. The comparison for me based on personal driving experience would be the mustang GT500, or perhaps the camaro Z28,new stingray or viper. I think those are the better comparo because of how they drive wild with in your face lurid slides. They (Toyota) started making super cars back in 1967 with the 2000GT that went toe to toe with the best Porsche at the time, they dominated the rally scene with the GT-Four, and then the Supra was near the top of the food chain for a very long time especially in the aftermarket scene so in terms of reliability Toyota/Lexus have always had their act together much more so than other brands by a wide margin. LFA's aren't catching fire like 458's nor do they have as many issues that mercedes has and that has a lot to do with using much better transmissions, parts and technology. That said I would take a 458 over just about anything. No car is safe at 100mph not even an escalade, imo your friend got lucky. I do expect the RC-F to rival the black series, it sure better at this price. What I like is its a totally different car, instead of taking an existing car and heavily upgrading it the RC-F is not the IS. There will be an RC normal spec around 40k. The current IS-F is the match up against the M3, but at this level you can easily pay 40k more for .2 difference 0-60 with traction control on, turn it off the Black series suffers to a point its scary to drive fast. In the normal C63 they don't even allow you to turn it off and for good reason. The Black C63 comes in at 125k+ that should be right around where the RC-F sits fully loaded and I'm willing to bet Lexus can do very similar numbers with nearly 150 less hp, efficiency. It's also going to have cylinder deactivation and whats exciting about the RC-F is that a lot of the LFA technology will trickle down and I assume be improved in some ways. These are things that you can't get elsewhere. You can get the AMG experience many different ways but not the LFA experience. I've driven the C63 and the power is just ludicrous, not as useable as most other cars, I'd say wild yet insanely fun. If thats what someone wants flat out go AMG. For the driver imo the Porsche Cayman is the way to go and for a purist the Subaru/Toyota FR-S/86 is the bee's knees. AMG is probably my favorite engine maker for raw brutal power but if only they could mate it with a quality PDK and lighten it up they could have a real winner, It needs refinement as making a car go fast with gobs of power isn't much of a challenge. Dealer service... Lexus is #1, MB is #10, thats 3 below the luxury segment average nation wide. Last thing I'll say is Jeremy Clarkson, he may be a tool but he is an enlightened tool..

I remember this episode! Top Gear is a great docu if you can appreciate the humor. I remember him saying the only thing lacking in the LFA is a cup holder :-)

[wmclarenf1]

GAWD! But how could one not take this over an LFA!!

The look of this really takes you at first glance and even second and third. A very aggressive and eye catching look but I do wonder if the overly glaring yellow will age well. The white edition is sublime!

Edited August 14, 2013 by wmclarenf1

[wmclarenf1]

I think Japanese high end / super car manufacturing suffers the same prejudice/isolation (whatever you may want to call it) as Japanese watchmakers. The GTR (super car but perhaps not super badge) and the LFA are clearly in super car territory performance wise but maybe its just that it is not positioned in peoples' minds as such. When one thinks of Japanese cars, they usually think cheaper but reliable. When thinking Lexus, its refinement as Lexus seems to have hammered home from day one.

Same with Japanese watchmaking. There is Seiko which is cheaper and reliable just like Nissan and Toyota and then there is Grand Seiko and Credor. The level of finishing is second to no swiss brand and perhaps even better one may argue. The level of precision and accuracy makes the swiss COSC standard look like a joke. And the Credor repeater, I think an unbiased mind will be hard pressed to find any Swiss, English or German brand offering a better chiming watch. And when it comes to decorative dials and such, I would safely say the level of detail, refinement and overall finish on the Maki-e and Urushi dials offered by the Japanese is really unsurpassed which is no surprise by so several Swiss watch making household names have opted to include Urushi dials as opposed to trying to re-create because perhaps it is just so hard or perhaps even not possible to re-create the levels of the Japanese Urushi masters.

[chiromikey]

i'm not sure i agree with the analogy but i like it anyways. grand seikos have held my attention for a very long time...but i've always enjoyed owning watches that most people don't recognize, or recognize as special.

[Miuramaniac]

At the risk of sounding racist, or at the very least stereotypical, I've always preferred the European cars over the Japanese ones, especially when you're talking more performance cars. IMO the Japanese cars are extremely reliable, but usually lack in styling. Always seeming to copy something else, but not quite getting it, as far as appealing to the senses. You can talk numbers all you want, but for the total experience, give me an Aston Martin. I once had a DB-9 that was EASILY the best combo as far as sound, feel, smell, looks. Also brought out the most anger as it had to be towed in 3 times the first 2 months for different reasons. But it was exquisite for the senses (except monetary, haha). Just something about German engineering and British style gets me into the dealership test-driving new cars. Anyone agree or am I totally off-base and need to give them a chance?

[wmclarenf1]

AM is fantastic! Love their lines and design cues! Sleek, Sophisticated and not loud! DB9 is lovely. Won't be ale to afford that on my shores unfortunately.

Dumb question.. who makes the engines for AM form the simple V8 Vantage, Rapide, DB9 etc?

[Craig]

No mate you are pretty much spot on

[JayDM]

" I've driven the C63 and the power is just ludicrous, not as useable as most other cars, I'd say wild yet insanely fun. If thats what someone wants flat out go AMG." That's pretty much SPOT on, without a doubt the most FUN car in this class, always walk away smiling...... I've honestly never owned a Lexus, but from what I've heard from a few mates that drive the ISF, its the perfect daily driver in this class, if your going to own just ONE car and are choosing between the C63, ISF and M3, then the Lexus get's top spot every single time. I've never been a fan of BMW, one of the first cars I ever purchased was a 760 and I just can't count the amount of bad experiences I had, from absolutely horrid service through the dealership to heaps and heaps of problems with the car leading to me having to deal with the dealership's miserable service, in hindsight I would never have put large chrome rims on it which led to a lot of problems, wasn't the only issue I had though.... I don't know how I feel about the large price jump for the new Lexus though, my issue is with the Benz you have the standard C class, the C63 AMG and then finally at the large upcharge the Black, with the Lexus they're giving you a standard model and then a very large upcharge to get the F, seems like a different variation of the mistakes Audi makes with there S line, they offer the S lineup at an upcharge to compete with BMW's M and Benz's AMG, yet the Audi's just aren't in line with the competition.... Admittedly, I'm not a person who appreciates the more advanced tech in the Lexus, I just want the tech in the car I purchase to ALWAYS work, weather I can do all sorts of new and improved things with it or not. Depending on the car, performance figures vs. the competition may or may not be a large factor in the choice I make, the real deciding factor for me if I was choosing between the new Lexus and the C63 is at the higher price point, what would I get from the Lexus that I wouldn't get with the standard C63 AMG(not the black)? Which will be more reliable for me? And which will generally cause me the least amount of problems? You also have to look at the individual customer who's purchasing a car and how they make comparisons, I forget who it was but I believe someone above asked about making a choice between a GTR and a variety of Ferrari's, it's not always such a simple issue of performance, tech, price, etc.... Most Ferrari owners own a bevy of autos, generally high end, most people I know who own a GTR are younger, and its usually there only ride, I have a 2010 GTR and at the time, I was making a choice between the Nissan and an Audi R8 5.2 coupe, the Nissan won out because it was just a more comfortable enjoyable car to drive, if I had to drive only ONE car and I had to make the choice between the GTR and a Ferrari, I would probably go with the GTR, as the Ferrari's I've owned would not do as well day to day, but owning multiple rides I just could never really see myself trying to decide between a Ferrari and the GTR, just wouldn't personally class them in the same category regardless of performance stats.

[wmclarenf1]

" I've driven the C63 and the power is just ludicrous, not as useable as most other cars, I'd say wild yet insanely fun. If thats what someone wants flat out go AMG." That's pretty much SPOT on, without a doubt the most FUN car in this class, always walk away smiling...... I've honestly never owned a Lexus, but from what I've heard from a few mates that drive the ISF, its the perfect daily driver in this class, if your going to own just ONE car and are choosing between the C63, ISF and M3, then the Lexus get's top spot every single time. I've never been a fan of BMW, one of the first cars I ever purchased was a 760 and I just can't count the amount of bad experiences I had, from absolutely horrid service through the dealership to heaps and heaps of problems with the car leading to me having to deal with the dealership's miserable service, in hindsight I would never have put large chrome rims on it which led to a lot of problems, wasn't the only issue I had though.... I don't know how I feel about the large price jump for the new Lexus though, my issue is with the Benz you have the standard C class, the C63 AMG and then finally at the large upcharge the Black, with the Lexus they're giving you a standard model and then a very large upcharge to get the F, seems like a different variation of the mistakes Audi makes with there S line, they offer the S lineup at an upcharge to compete with BMW's M and Benz's AMG, yet the Audi's just aren't in line with the competition.... Admittedly, I'm not a person who appreciates the more advanced tech in the Lexus, I just want the tech in the car I purchase to ALWAYS work, weather I can do all sorts of new and improved things with it or not. Depending on the car, performance figures vs. the competition may or may not be a large factor in the choice I make, the real deciding factor for me if I was choosing between the new Lexus and the C63 is at the higher price point, what would I get from the Lexus that I wouldn't get with the standard C63 AMG(not the black)? Which will be more reliable for me? And which will generally cause me the least amount of problems? You also have to look at the individual customer who's purchasing a car and how they make comparisons, I forget who it was but I believe someone above asked about making a choice between a GTR and a variety of Ferrari's, it's not always such a simple issue of performance, tech, price, etc.... Most Ferrari owners own a bevy of autos, generally high end, most people I know who own a GTR are younger, and its usually there only ride, I have a 2010 GTR and at the time, I was making a choice between the Nissan and an Audi R8 5.2 coupe, the Nissan won out because it was just a more comfortable enjoyable car to drive, if I had to drive only ONE car and I had to make the choice between the GTR and a Ferrari, I would probably go with the GTR, as the Ferrari's I've owned would not do as well day to day, but owning multiple rides I just could never really see myself trying to decide between a Ferrari and the GTR, just wouldn't personally class them in the same category regardless of performance stats.

I've yet to drive the GTR but from friend's user experiences, pound for pound and dollar for dollar, its value for super car money. Just gotta wait till my insurance clears again before I can delve into thee toys again.. sigh...

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I'll take euro supercars over jdm supercars all day long and I agree JDM design is boring but here's what gets me, most euro supercars don't have common sense design, build quality, service or the technology we deserve at such a price.

R8 V10 is an exception I really liked the layout but even my GTS or the MP4 12C, Vantage, or the new DB9 just lack big time. The AM's nav pointing downward and its a $200 Garmin, the interior that is uber dated, most the buttons are in the wrong place, even their newest models have dated transmissions, you can count on getting old tech when buying a new AM. If you look at the vanquish they squeezed every gimmick into it from full carbon body, V12 etc.. its over spec'd and under performs against its competitors.

Vehicle maintenance is very expensive as with supercars things go wrong or things seem to bother you more like a rattle or loose stich than in other more moderately priced cars. It seems to me at least when you go exotic you trade a lot for emotion & quirks. I'll take the emotion just pass on the quirks.

The GTR although JDM has many quirks as well. It begins to rattle, it's acceleration isn't smooth, the ride is very harsh and it's more brutal than many euro cars.. but bring in the LFA and I assume the new NSX and we can expect refinement. Both boring designs but looking inside the build and tech is good, then marry it with a better sexier more emotional exterior design and we have a winner.

I just feel for the money at least put the buttons in the right place and use better materials or technique.

all that said the 458 is my dream!

[JayDM]

Most exotics, if your actually going to drive them, you just have to expect that you will have issues, just a fact of life, or it always has been for me.... Out of what most consider a "supercar" I've found 911 Turbos to be absolutely tops for reliability, and the Lamborghini Gallardo to be the bottom(never owned the top end lambo's).... In between most just mesh together in a way that some will have bad experiences, but others good.... The v8 Ferrari's are actually not to bad, the v12's can get a bit "temperamental" my younger brother has the 458 and has never had a single issue with it, he drives that and a Range Rover sport don't really know how often he drives the 458 but it does get used a fair bit, believe my father still has a 430 that's got a good bit of mileage on it and hasn't caused any trouble. I've still got a 599GTO and despite having had a few issues it's 100% the most grin inducing car I've ever owned, have no desire to replace it with the newer Berlinetta, as much as I love it though, it rarely gets driven. Have very little experience with Aston Martin's, my father used to have an older Vanquish, don't think I drove it and don't remember much about it other than it turned a lot of heads. I can't really speak on the quality of the tech on various autos beyond how consistently it actually works, I purchase a lot of cars, don't know all that much about them though beyond how much fun to drive they are and how reliable they are.... I like the look of the NSX, haven't driven it though, don't even know if its available yet as I haven't gotten anything new since getting back to the states a bit before the 4th of July.

[wmclarenf1]

Most exotics, if your actually going to drive them, you just have to expect that you will have issues, just a fact of life, or it always has been for me.... Out of what most consider a "supercar" I've found 911 Turbos to be absolutely tops for reliability

I would agree not that I have owned many in the past. For exotic and highER reliability, I think its the 911 as well and that's what I'm thinking of getting again but not the Turbo.

[JayDM]

I've always been a big fan of Porsche. They just make great cars..... Wish they would release a seriously juiced up Cayman, such an attractive car, so much fun to drive, but with more power that thing would be totally tops.

[Miuramaniac]

I've always been a big fan of Porsche. They just make great cars..... Wish they would release a seriously juiced up Cayman, such an attractive car, so much fun to drive, but with more power that thing would be totally tops.

They do make great cars, I've just never been crazy about the 911, even after having a couple. But I did like the Carrera GT I had about 8 years ago. That thing was a BEAST, but a little hard to drive if not on the track. Most demanding clutch ever; I had friends that were decent drivers stall it out all the time in first gear. haha

[JayDM]

The Carrera GT. That was the first car I ever test drove..... At Manhattan motorcars in Westhampton beach NY, I stalled about 100 yards out of the dealership and saw my father cringe in the passenger seat, then proceeded to get pulled over after taking an entrance ramp at 85. Didn't wind up buying it, lol. They still sell for big dollars, have never actually seen one on the road though.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Carerra GT is on a whole other level can't believe you had one, thats just beserk. Love Porsche the GT2 and RS 991 coming in the next year! Cayman rules but I understand why porsche doesn't want to compete with the 991.

You guys ever watch the TV show how it's made? Great series.

Another really really great read is all 5 parts of this: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/07/the-making-of-the-lexus-lfa-supercar-who-what-where-and-most-of-all-why-an-inside-report-chapter-1-from-a-bar-to-bar-none/

[Miuramaniac]

Yeah that C-GT was crazy. Not much of a daily driver, though, obviously, and the only track around wasn't "big" enough for it. Fun little road course but better suited for smaller, more agile, less powerful cars.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

[Miuramaniac]

Man I miss havin' one of those fun cars!!

[chiromikey]

that had to be embarrasing for m fans...for their all new 6 to get trounced by an amg wagon! i can hear the bmw fans now..."but, but, but in the twisties..." ;)

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The new Turbo/S is something else.

Something about a porsche always gets me..

[wmclarenf1]

The new Turbo/S is something else. Something about a porsche always gets me..

OMG... still the same yet so different... Love it!

[Miuramaniac]

Love those Turbo S's but something about the engine being THAT far back there makes it feel a little.....awkward?

[wmclarenf1]

Love those Turbo S's but something about the engine being THAT far back there makes it feel a little.....awkward?

I would agree but the die hards would say that is part of the 911 driving character. When I had my 997 2S, I found the feel a tad weird and frankly, rather light at the front which would come from the rear engine rear wheel drive effect I guess. It is however a very planted car into corners as I found out during a B-road drive. The trick which I eventually learnt is throttle control in and out of corners more so than with FWD and 4WD. Took me a while to get used to that and frankly had nearly lost the tail several times while getting used to it. Truth be told as well, I also dare not be as gung ho with any rear wheel drive 911 variant which also perhaps reflects a sobering that comes with age and also that I finally accept that I am not Mika Hakkinen. I would probably like to get a C4S soon and hopefully the 4WD will give me more assurance handling wise.