+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Just wanted to open this up for discussion as you all know we have quite a few customers and inquiries on a whole variety of topics especially quality, materials, where it's made and "is it handmade". One of the things that really helps TSG's service is the feedback you guys provide for example when a member emails me about a driver I have not only my own impressions of the club but the reviews written in the store/forum to look at and I often ask customers with similar swing characteristics and buying habits who have purchased the same club their feedback on it. This helps a ton! We basically pull from the collective opinions of our customers. I can say 20 guys loved it while 3 guys hated it and the 3 that hated it all swing 110mph.. just an example. One topic that has been coming up more and more is Hand Made vs Mass Produced, I'm not sure if there is a thread on another forum talking about this that is increasing the amount of questions we receive but I figured I'd open it up for discussion here in the forums. I'll start by providing some basic about both: Handmade: The process is usually raw heads are forged or purchased in a particular mold that can facilitate the shape and design the manufacturer or grinder needs. For example the same head can't be made with a lot more offset or zero offset different molds are created and sometimes need to be purchased which is not cheap. There are many open model heads that can also be selected to use and adjust but same goes for mass produced there are molds that are often adjusted as well. If there is a complicated cavity it's often CNC milled which costs a lot extra per head over pressed. The Ginder then grinds to shape and has to constantly go back and fourth measuring bounce, adjusting lie, and following a shape template and sample wedge by eye and hand they must also maintain the head weight which again based on design can be limiting. Because it's handmade no 2 clubs can be 100% identical 98-99.9% but it's not noticed because usually there isn't multiple sets or an eye discerning enough to find the differences. Let's take Miura for example, ( don't ask me about spin welded :) Miura is handmade no doubt no 2 wedges are exactly the same even if they appear identical and it's personal preference if you see that as a positive or negative. Grooves are stamped or engraved or milled, logos the same, the heads are sometimes put a tumbler that smooths out some edges, they are finished and plated in smaller quantities and polished then paint fill then QC and assembly done by hand. Thats handmade in a nutshell but overall it's 2-6x more expensive per head to make while mass produced the investment is in tooling/mold and quantity. Think Himeji when thinking handmade. Most boutique JDM brands are handmade Mass Produced: Think Endo or China/Taiwan when thinking mass produced Most off the rack or big brands are mass produced, little grind experience is necessary, it's press to press to press etc.. then tumbled then stamped and finished then sometimes polished by hand then paint fill by hand and QC checked The tooling/die must be purchased, one for each shape but after that you can really crank out thousands upon thousands quickly until the tooling breaks. The look of inside the cavity is more rounded because the cavities are pressed vs CNC'd and the cost per head is far lower although the quantity is much higher so total investment is more. Some prefer this look of consistent perfection, usually the fit and finish is a little bit better. So what do you prefer? Handmade or Mass Produced? There is no right or wrong answer it's all preference. What sort of imperfections have you noticed with either? what sort of feel or performance benifits? We gotta exclude multi piece iron heads as those only can be mass produced. I will say on the PGA tour many top players have clubs that are handmade yet the retail version of the same club is mass produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmieboi Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 The Yoro craft mizuno is considered as mass or hand made!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yoro is handmade as it requires a skilled grinder of many years, but you can also consider it partially mass produced because a portion of the heads are mass produced but not fully completed so they are left heavy with the ability for crafters to manipulate grind. This is ideal for the brand as they can produce in mass with consistency at a better cost yet still offer customizations for the client. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mob Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Tough question as I have irons that have been produced through each method and love them both. I love my Epon AF302s and I love my Miuras. Obviously these irons play very differently due to design, but I can't say that I really prefer one over the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Alexander Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I've had the Gauge Studio Hand Mades in the bag for the last seven years, and have been loyal to them. The girls....oh well that's another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLL33 Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Like others, I can appreciate both -- as long as we're talking about higher quality mass produced only -- but for me, I most treasure a hand made club that just has something unique about its feel that I lucked out in getting ahold of, knowing it's a one of a kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestorm959 Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hand made all the way. I almost can't think of anything that is better mass-produced than hand-made by a competent professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I had the impression that cast or forged a fair amount of trimming and grinding is needed to produce the finished product. If so, how much trimming and grinding is required to distinguish hand made from mass produced ? Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 I had the impression that cast or forged a fair amount of trimming and grinding is needed to produce the finished product. If so, how much trimming and grinding is required to distinguish hand made from mass produced ? Shambles For mass produced there isn't anything I would consider grinding, the removal of a small line that the press created needs to be smoothed but thats a job for anyone, hand made the entire shape, grind, thicknesses, CG location, bounce, loft, lie, head weight it's all up to the person grinding it. I'm all for both, the perfection of mass produced is something to value, but the look, shape, uniqueness and skill of hand grind is appealing as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 For mass produced there isn't anything I would consider grinding, the removal of a small line that the press created needs to be smoothed but thats a job for anyone, hand made the entire shape, grind, thicknesses, CG location, bounce, loft, lie, head weight it's all up to the person grinding it. I'm all for both, the perfection of mass produced is something to value, but the look, shape, uniqueness and skill of hand grind is appealing as well. I'm of the opinion that considerably more is involved, although I am not competent to accurately list the journey of a chunk of steel to a golf club. It's possible to make clubs the way you describe " hand made " to be, but that would be horribly expensive or ridiculously crude or both, depending on the machinery available to the maker and his skill set with it. I expect a book or a visit to a historic display would better better illustrate. Thankfully, in today's age of the internet, it's easier to find pictures and illustrations of the processes involved as well as the limitations imposed by the available machineries and the skill sets of their operators. You've actually been a resource for me, thanks to your postings of different videos from different manufacturers of how golf clubs are made. It's also thanks to those video posts that I believe a more detailed differentiation of hand made and machine made is needed here. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegaman Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Mass Produced :The grind is pre-programmed in the press or casting machine, and especially if the club is precision forged there is more or less mostly polishing and stamping left to do. This is great for consistency and doesn't require skilled craftsmen/women to grind out the final shape, just a "normal worker" with little training can do it. A handmade club comes of the forging press "overweight" as a raw clubhead with no grind, then a skilled person grinds out the desired grind, leading edge etc etc, this takes much more skill and takes time. A lot of human work is involved, every club will come out ever so slightly different to the next one. And you can often see the actual work has been done by hand. The yururi blades and wedges, especially the raw stuff, are a great example, no mass production factory could make clubs looking like that. Edited January 18, 2015 by Vegaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Mass Produced :The grind is pre-programmed in the press or casting machine, and especially if the club is precision forged there is more or less mostly polishing and stamping left to do. This is great for consistency and doesn't require skilled craftsmen/women to grind out the final shape, just a "normal worker" with little training can do it. A handmade club comes of the forging press "overweight" as a raw clubhead with no grind, then a skilled person grinds out the desired grind, leading edge etc etc, this takes much more skill and takes time. A lot of human work is involved, every club will come out ever so slightly different to the next one. And you can often see the actual work has been done by hand. The yururi blades and wedges, especially the raw stuff, are a great example, no mass production factory could make clubs looking like that. A look at the video of the way in which Ping casts it's clubs via the lost wax process might help you understand why your impression of how clubs are mass produced does not work. I saw it in some documentary program about how to manufacture different things. It's an investment heavy process but does produce reasonably consistent product and the raw heads come out complete with hosel, grooves, loft and lie for each iron. Only the finishing touches and final adjustments were needed subsequently. Forged clubs are a lot easier to find videos of, thanks to the diligence of TSG in posting them here. One of the reasons I haunt this board and wish I had learned to speak Japanese. Neither forged nor cast need be made by hand regardless that both require final finishing by hand. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I thought Vega summed it up nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegaman Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 A look at the video of the way in which Ping casts it's clubs via the lost wax process might help you understand why your impression of how clubs are mass produced does not work. I saw it in some documentary program about how to manufacture different things. It's an investment heavy process but does produce reasonably consistent product and the raw heads come out complete with hosel, grooves, loft and lie for each iron. Only the finishing touches and final adjustments were needed subsequently. Forged clubs are a lot easier to find videos of, thanks to the diligence of TSG in posting them here. One of the reasons I haunt this board and wish I had learned to speak Japanese. Neither forged nor cast need be made by hand regardless that both require final finishing by hand. Shambles I think what you said is exactly what I said? Mass produced = only a few finishing touches and polishing etc are left to be done. The grind, topline etc is pre-programmed into the casting or forging process. Consistency will be great. Handmade clubs will have their sole grind, topline and even shape modified/grinded out on a grind wheel after the initial forging or casting. A person actually grinds out the sole shape, heel/toe relief, leading egde grind etc by hand. This takes a certain skill and especially time. "Handmade" clubs are of course forged/cast first, it's not like somebody is standing there pounding the steel with a hammer. Handmade refers to the process of a person shaping the already forged/cast head by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think what you said is exactly what I said? Mass produced = only a few finishing touches and polishing etc are left to be done. The grind, topline etc is pre-programmed into the casting or forging process. Consistency will be great. Handmade clubs will have their sole grind, topline and even shape modified/grinded out on a grind wheel after the initial forging or casting. A person actually grinds out the sole shape, heel/toe relief, leading egde grind etc by hand. This takes a certain skill and especially time. "Handmade" clubs are of course forged/cast first, it's not like somebody is standing there pounding the steel with a hammer. Handmade refers to the process of a person shaping the already forged/cast head by hand. Where we differ is a matter of degree or perceived degree, which is what I asked TSG to define. The model I describe is pretty close to the final product and essentially requires only trimming, polishing and branding. The model you describe is of a blank that has excess metal enough to require cosiderably more grinding and shaping. That, to me, does not make commercial sense and would only be the recourse if only a very few sets are needed, as in " Specially made for ... ". BTW, this is a long cherished pipe dream of mine as I'm sure of others, in those long gone days when my ambition was to become the greatest golfer in the world. I think the model you describe, or as I understand you describe, does not make commercial sense. It's very possible to make " Specially made for... " for those very few who are willing to spend an enormous amount for the sake of owning something no one else has, but even then I doubt the returns or the skilled labor would be sustainable. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegaman Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well, for small "boutique" brands such as Yururi the initial capital cost of setting up a forging mold or several of them in fact is just to prohibitively expensive. They would then need to produce (I guess) thousands of iron sets or wedges before even getting a return on the initial investment, like the large OEMs do. The other way is to have a small team of dedicated craftsmen grind out the head shape and grind, but this can never be scaled up with any hope of keeping the consistency any good. It's a specialist job I guess. So they are kind of "stuck" with producing a limited number of clubs. Scaling up would mean a huge investment in molds/dies or trying to train a large number of people how to grind..Both these options are usually out of reach for small makers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Alexander Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 A scientist would say, nothing comes close to mass produced in terms of tolerances. An artist would say who cares about science. The great artists of history died broke, however their art lives on and is truly valued and appreciated to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Where we differ is a matter of degree or perceived degree, which is what I asked TSG to define. Sorry what was your question? Handmade makes perfect sense for anyone who doesn't want to tie up money into buying thousands of sets. It allows brands to make low quantities and adjustments more frequently and in the end it allows them to offer a more complete selection within a brand. Limited Edition doesn't have to be more expensive or less or prized. It's circumstantial. Specs and tolerance in general is much better when it comes to handmade, because someone who cared made it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLL33 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 +1, Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well, for small "boutique" brands such as Yururi the initial capital cost of setting up a forging mold or several of them in fact is just to prohibitively expensive. They would then need to produce (I guess) thousands of iron sets or wedges before even getting a return on the initial investment, like the large OEMs do. The other way is to have a small team of dedicated craftsmen grind out the head shape and grind, but this can never be scaled up with any hope of keeping the consistency any good. It's a specialist job I guess. So they are kind of "stuck" with producing a limited number of clubs. Scaling up would mean a huge investment in molds/dies or trying to train a large number of people how to grind..Both these options are usually out of reach for small makers. For any company, regardless of size, the cost of tooling up for any specific model is prohibitive. The larger companies are better able to endure mistakes, however, whomsoever made the decision that led to that mistake is going to have to answer for it even if he owns the company. The company that was the progenitor of the Royal Collection is an interesting case that fringes on your model. ( I had to resort to the clumsy description because I cannot at the moment remember that company's name. ) That company had the good/bad luck to have a PGA pro win with their club and interest in their design grew to such an extent that demand went well beyond capacity to produce or deliver. For reasons that escape me, that spurt in demand which they could not take advantage of apparently caused them to cash in their chips and sell out to become the present day RC. It's a story I wish I knew the details of but telling in that they apparently handled the sudden demand poorly enough to have to sell out the company. At least, the story looks that way to me so far. [ Still a great club by the way, and well worth the getting, at least in the 3 and 4/5 wood. I was not so lucky with the Driver, but I might have found a dead head and am looking out for another for comparison purposes. ] The point of the RC story is that you need to be prepared to grow in case the opportunity arises and the model you describe severely limits that potential. The idea of buying a first stamping blank strikes me as too fraught with potential faults because every stamping drives out some impurities from the metal. Better would be to buy a model that was close enough to a design you want and adjust it to something you think is better. Your model actually suggests a customized custom fit, which is an attractive idea to me, but would probably be expensive. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Sorry what was your question? Handmade makes perfect sense for anyone who doesn't want to tie up money into buying thousands of sets. It allows brands to make low quantities and adjustments more frequently and in the end it allows them to offer a more complete selection within a brand. Limited Edition doesn't have to be more expensive or less or prized. It's circumstantial. Specs and tolerance in general is much better when it comes to handmade, because someone who cared made it. For reasons that escape me you have found offense from my words. I shall withdraw from this conversation. Shambles Edited January 20, 2015 by Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 For reasons that escape me you have found offense from my words. I shall withdraw from this conversation. Shambles ?? No offense at all, I just thought you said you asked me a question, I must have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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