I want to know! Who the hell said it first?

[BlockedItRight]

Here is how I look at it (albeit a little more complicated).

I may not be 100% correct here and its been a long time since my college physics classes. Going on what I intuitively see.

I am assuming that we are concerned with ballflight here, not what the static machine says. The key here is where/what the reference points are on face angle and lofts.

Static loft and face angle is measured in relation to the clubshaft/hosel and its sole. It does not take into account the relationship of the angle of approach to the target line or the angle of the sole in relation to the ground when it is swung or even how a player addresses the ball. No matter what, the static loft and the face angle of the club cannot change during a swing if the reference point used in the static measurement maintains the relationship during the swing.

If opening the face increases the static loft when measured it has increased from a static point of view no matter how the club is swung.

One way to visualize this is to tape the club to the measuring device (dont know the proper name for it) and rotate the whole thing with the club on there. The measurement will not change.

We are assuming that the sole is the reference point for this measurement without factoring anything else.

However in reality because we are concerned with the flight of the ball, the reference point changes once we swing to hit a ball. What changes is the relationship between the face angle of the clubhead/sole to the ground/target line. The reference point to measure loft becomes the ground and the reference point for the open/close angle becomes the target line.

There are many ways to square up the clubface in relation to the target line. Depending on how a person releases the club (forearm rotation, flipping the clubhead with just the hands, body movement, combinations of each etc) will change the relationship of the club to the ground and the target line. Some releases decrease loft while closing the clubface and other ways can possibly increase it even while closing the clubface. That is how we hit high hooks and low slices vs low hooks and high slices.

There are also other possiblities to condsider too, what about COG, shaft droop changes and even how the way a club is bent open i.e. - just twist the hosel around its axis vs bending the hosel.

To conclude, I think that opening or closing a clubface will probably change the trajectory of an individuals ball flight but that will depend on how that individual manipulates the clubface in the swing. Just because the flight of the ball is lower after I have bent it open does not mean that I have lowered the loft. The only true measurement for loft is the static measurement. I could have released faster or earlier because I dont fear the left side now and if my type of release decreases loft then I caused the ball to go lower.

Bend it try it and see what works for you. Too many possibilities to measure and factor here, especially the human mind.

[tsg4tch]

Here are a couple more visual aids to better understand what DM is saying:

That is very interesting...didn't know anyone did that. Thanks for the picture.

[bma725]

Here are a couple more visual aids to better understand what DM is saying:

He doesn't always swing like that. It started prior to the 1998 PGA, he started doing that to hit a controlled fade, now its moved to that particular hand action whenever he wants to hit a fade. But he doesn't do it on everyswing.

[joey3108]

Ah the old open-face, static loft, dynamic loft, deloft, yada yada discussion. Who here swings like a machine? Who here returns that club-head to the ball exactly the same time after time? Who here is so precise with their ballstriking that a 1° difference in "static" face agle makes a big difference? How wide are those muni fairways? Why do I spend so much money on golf? Where am I going with this?

Now it's my turn to have a crack at this:

Let's say I always measure a club on my guage with the face sitting square to the target line. Now let's say I have a driver inserted and in this case the guage reads 9°. That's 9° when clamped in square to the target line. Now when I release the clamp on my guage the face opens up 1°. In other words (this club is right handed) the face now points 1° to the right. Now I reclamp without resquaring the head and take another measurement. Now it will read 10°. Am I correct in my assumptions so far? Okay here's where it gets tricky.... :D

Now I remove the club from the guage and address a ball with the club. I sole the driver with loose hands and allow it to face right 1° just like on the guage during the second measurement. It now has a static loft of 10° and the face is said to be open, yes? Okay, now swing the club back and swing it back down to the ball and through. (oooh I piped that one). At impact, because I like to rotate my arms and hands past their position at address, I have rotated the face square to my target line. So at impact the loft was 9°. It was 10° at address because it was open and 9° at impact because I squared it.

My point is, if you take your loft measurement with the face square (whether it naturally sits open or closed) and at impact the face is square, the club will play to that loft. But if you meausure your loft with the face in it's natural address position and it is not square and then you square the face at impact then the loft at impact will be different. And in the case of an open-faced driver it will be lower. Again, provided you measured the loft with an open face.

So, if I was so consistent that I always rotate my hands and arms at impact the same amount and that amount was say 2° too much, causing my shots to hook left then I would probably benefit from a 2° open faced club whose loft when squared up was my preferred 9°! :P

You say "to-may-to" I say "to-mah-to".

You and I have discuss it many times and You and I come to the same agreement. Like you state above What ever the face angle is if the face come back at impact square the loft will come back to what the loft stated, Right? Basically what ever the impact possition is, considering Moment of inertia off course. :)

tsg4tch,

Gotcha Bro!:) I'm completely clear w/ your explanation, It's just the number that you got from TM that doesn't match w/ what i have here.

Dougf,

If you have an open faced driver and the player squares it up, you dynamically have less loft.

A closed face driver, squared up will effectively have more loft.

Exactly! My point is that if the open face driver say 9.5* has a 10.5* static loft, at impact will come back to a 9.5* not 8.5* "W/ a consistent swing ideally".

Demolition man,

OMG!!! I need to find a new club builder.

What on earth are you talking about? You are going to confuse people.

While your logic holds true based on your garage science, you are discounting the point of the way the club is setup at impact.

I will attempt to explain what another caller tried to tell you in VJ's example. VJ has major forearm rotation and hand action through the ball. If I showed you a picture of him just after impact, his hand looks like it is going to fly off the club and is wrist is so torqued you think it's broken. So let's go with the idea that VJ will square the face at impact, no problem, maybe even shut it a bit.

I don't know what loft his driver is, but at 9.5* and 2* open, he will actually get an effective loft of 7.5* if impacting with a square face.

Why? Because you use loft as you rotate an open faced club into a square position. Keep in mind, loft is measured with the club in the intended start/setup position. So the 9.5 represents the head sitting on the ground with an open face to target. If you rotated the club to square up the face with the target line at address, you just lost loft. Try it, it's easy to see at 2*, not as easy at 1*.

The converse is true too for hackers who play closed Callaways or Cobras. If the loft is measured at 9* with a 2* closed face. At address, the driver points left. If you rotated it open 2* to square up to the target, you would notice the loft increasing.

This change in loft at impact is more of a driver/fairway wood issue. If you rotated the face slightly open or closed to square up a driver, the face still points at the target. So you are changing effective loft. But try this with a wedge. When you open up a wedge to increase loft for a higher pitch shot or a flop. Where does the face point? Open wedge face points to the right, not to the target, so you adjust your stance to get a ballflight on target. You do not have to do that with driver.

So back to the original issue. An open face on the driver in and of itself does not allow for a lower ball flight. But a tour pro swing at impact squares up the face at impact and decreases the loft producing lower ballflight. An amateur hits the high right shot because they cannot rotate fast enough to square up the face at least one more degree than where it started.

First! Like i said on my first post " keep it healthy "

Second, I'm not confusing anyone here because my self is confuse. I'm not a physic proffessor, so that is why i'm looking for a better explanation. Honestly speaking I'm not a smart ass :) I always believe It takes a teacher to become a PHD. I don't need to tell veryone here what is my back ground education is, For sure my Diploma is enough to understand what live is all about. So I won't be a Jack ass :lol: LOL!

However, You gave us Vijay's swing as an example...How many of the PGA pro swing like Vijay? I'm, sure very little percentage. For most of it I understand your explanation. So what i'm gonna do is that ...I'm gonna keep on reading and digest the one i think is correct and make sense.

From time to time i've tried to explain it to a customers why their address possition on the club face is too close/shut ( iron mostly ), Because on the actual swing motion considering the amount of force, bow on the shaft, Body possition at impact and the club face change possition to a square possition at impact...Not to add the club face movement during MOI.

I always said also that it doesn't matter what the loft of the club is, what matter is that we can achieve an ideal trajectory without compensating on our swing, which every body is not the same.

Every one,

Yes, I do understand long before I become a clubmaker, an open face driver during swing motion come back square will deloft the face from a static loft.

But my point is Most of the open face driver that i have measured have more loft that what stamped on the sole. Say 9.5* w/ 1* open face and the static loft increase to a 10*...Now if this spec during the swing motion come back square, it should be at 9.5* loft Not 8.5* or 7.5*, RIGHT?

BUT, Why they are all saying that 9.5* driver w/ open face hit lower that the 9.5* square or close face? Due to static loft changes for the open face driver and square possition at impact, Shouldn't the loft at impact basically the same at 9.5*?...that meants they are both will have the same trajectory if they hit both of them straight down the middle.

Uh! I wish to invite all of you and show you everything and let you guys try to explain it to me after you see all of that.

Thanks,

Joe :)

[BlockedItRight]

BUT, Why they are all saying that 9.5* driver w/ open face hit lower that the 9.5* square or close face? Due to static loft changes for the open face driver and square possition at impact, Shouldn't the loft at impact basically the same at 9.5*?...that meants they are both will have the same trajectory if they hit both of them straight down the middle.

Joe - I think the missing factor is how the pro's or good players square up the clubface. Most square it up with a dynamic delofting action while turning the clubface (turning the left wrist slightly downward aka Hogan's bowing of the wrist).

This ratio of delofting and squaring is the key to figuring out how much the loft will be affected by opening a face.

There are ways of getting the club square/closed to the target line without this delofting action but I think most good players do deloft.

Try getting a clubface square or closed with a slight flippy action while twisting the clubface shut, this is possible as well.

The loft in relation to the ground will remain the same or even possibly increase as the club is twisted close this way.

[aviator]

I don't know if anyone cares, but I know a guy and he picked up a 10.5* TP Tour from his friend who currently plays on the PGA Tour. He told me it has a 2* OPEN face and plays like a 8.5* driver. This came straight from the tour van and this guy doesn't look at any of these golf forums, so his information came from the PGA pro. I am not real sure why the guys on the van would say that the open face makes the loft decrease if it wasn't true. I used to have a tough time getting my mind around this topic also, but after having it explained and trying it, I understand.

[kr0nik]

I don't know if anyone cares, but I know a guy and he picked up a 10.5* TP Tour from his friend who currently plays on the PGA Tour. He told me it has a 2* OPEN face and plays like a 8.5* driver.

Per my previous explanation this means the 10.5° loft was measured with the face sitting 2° open and not square. It is 8.5° when squared.

The funny thing is if you glued your loft guage to the sole of a club it would give you the same measurement not matter how much you manipulate the face. :twisted: Think about it. The face is the same angle relative to the sole. You can't change that.

[joey3108]

I don't know if anyone cares, but I know a guy and he picked up a 10.5* TP Tour from his friend who currently plays on the PGA Tour. He told me it has a 2* OPEN face and plays like a 8.5* driver. This came straight from the tour van and this guy doesn't look at any of these golf forums, so his information came from the PGA pro. I am not real sure why the guys on the van would say that the open face makes the loft decrease if it wasn't true. I used to have a tough time getting my mind around this topic also, but after having it explained and trying it, I understand.

I'm Not saying that i'm a pro here. I have my good days and i have my bad days. Off course i'm not comparing them on my bad days.

I've own 8.5* TP retail w/ a dead square head and I have 9.5* Tour w/ 1 1/2* open face. They are definitely different according to the loft , The 8.5* retail hit the ball lower than my 9.5*. The only different is that my 9.5* is easier to hit fade w/ it. Both driver has the exact same 671 X flex on them.

And I've hit my good friends 9.5* retail w/ a dead square head also and hit this club a touch lower than my tour issue 9.5*. This club has a 671 S flex tipped to a S/X flex. IMO this club hit slightly lower due to tipping and "Maybe" because of 1/2" shorter.

A lot of you local guy here has hit my tour club also, did you found it lower than the retail 9.5*? and you all know how high i hit that club.

I hit so many of them, tour and non tour... None of them hit lower. I did found that hit lower and i measured it right after...True enough because the static loft is lower, that is why hit the ball lower.

Bare in mind that i used to play w/ 8.5* taylor made burner, 7.2* and 7.5* GBB and 7* BBB...and as a ho, off course that wasn't the only drivers. :)

joe

[DemolitionMan]

But my point is Most of the open face driver that i have measured have more loft that what stamped on the sole. Say 9.5* w/ 1* open face and the static loft increase to a 10*...Now if this spec during the swing motion come back square, it should be at 9.5* loft Not 8.5* or 7.5*, RIGHT?

Thanks,

Joe :)

There are two issues that need to be addressed. One, are you measuring the face while it is square or while it sits open? The so called industry standard for measuring driver loft and stamping the head is to measure the club while it is in address position whether that be with an intended closed or opened face. But of course, we all know that OEM measurements are not always accurate - many a driver has been misstamped or manufactured without too many variables. So it really cannot be trusted to routinely say oh a driver is stamped X, it's open Y, so here is the loft at impact.

And then there is all this business of the actual swing put on the ball which is why this discussion is way too scientific...especially when dealing with PGA Pros. They do not get it and most tour van people do not get it. They just know from experience that if a tour player is trying to get a lower ball flight or favor a certain pattern, then open the face a little. If that works a little, but not enough, then open it more. With a ton of driver heads at their disposal and with pros not paying a dime, trial and error is the rule, not a scientific calculation.

The results on the tee are far more important than the why.

Cheers Joe!

[shoe295]

Thanks Demoman..this is one of those topics that one minute I got it and the next I don't...but I think I understand better...yeah right :roll:

I appreciate the answer ...and am glad that you can crack yourself up..it's one of the things I do best myself.. :lol:

[joey3108]

But my point is Most of the open face driver that i have measured have more loft that what stamped on the sole. Say 9.5* w/ 1* open face and the static loft increase to a 10*...Now if this spec during the swing motion come back square, it should be at 9.5* loft Not 8.5* or 7.5*, RIGHT?

Thanks,

Joe :)

There are two issues that need to be addressed. One, are you measuring the face while it is square or while it sits open? The so called industry standard for measuring driver loft and stamping the head is to measure the club while it is in address position whether that be with an intended closed or opened face. But of course, we all know that OEM measurements are not always accurate - many a driver has been misstamped or manufactured without too many variables. So it really cannot be trusted to routinely say oh a driver is stamped X, it's open Y, so here is the loft at impact.

And then there is all this business of the actual swing put on the ball which is why this discussion is way too scientific...especially when dealing with PGA Pros. They do not get it and most tour van people do not get it. They just know from experience that if a tour player is trying to get a lower ball flight or favor a certain pattern, then open the face a little. If that works a little, but not enough, then open it more. With a ton of driver heads at their disposal and with pros not paying a dime, trial and error is the rule, not a scientific calculation.

The results on the tee are far more important than the why.

Cheers Joe!

100% agreed Especially on how OEM did their measurement.

Off course measured how the sole laid on the gauge machine, so i can measure how open the face is.

Ok Now Here is the spec of Taylor made head . It's On the latest Golf Classic june edition. Check on the high lighted section. I'm sure that they measured retail version.

Wadaya Think?

I'm gonna make sure the exact translation and I'm gonna ask a native speaker Japanese friend/s on this. SO far my understanding are (Left to right starting w/ yellow highlight) actual loft ( yellow ), Static loft ( orange ), Lie angle, and Face angle ( red ).

Joe :)

[DemolitionMan]

Makes sense. Most TM retail heads are closed face. When they are measured with the closed face they get one loft, then the face is squared up the loft goes up. The only thing I would be suspect of is something like the R540 shown at 9.5 but a 0.2 open face making it 9.3 at square. I do not believe the manufacturers are that consistent. I would be more willing to beleive that the R540 is intended to be square, but may come off the assembly line anywhere from +0.2 to -0.2 face angle.

Speaking of manufacturing tolerances, is this why Nakashima is making a selling point of labeling their driver lofts more precisely? They ask for a batch of 10* heads, then measure, and you get heads actually labeled 9.8 - 10.4.

I like this thread, one of the more intelligent ones I have seen in weeks on any message board.

[tsg4tch]

Wadaya Think?

I'm gonna make sure the exact translation and I'm gonna ask a native speaker Japanese friend/s on this. SO far my understanding are (Left to right starting w/ yellow highlight) actual loft ( yellow ), Static loft ( orange ), Lie angle, and Face angle ( red ).

Joe :)

Since all the yellow column numbers are 8.5, 9.5, 10.5, I'm assuming those are the stated(marked) lofts. The orange column must be the actual(measured) lofts, no? I'm going to assume positive numbers in the pink column are degrees closed: it's showing the R360 at 2.7° closed and I remember that club being a hook machine.

Generally, the clubs with closed faces have actual(measured) lofts that measure higher than their stated(marked) lofts, and the clubs with open faces have measured lofts that are lower than the marked lofts. So if I'm reading this chart correctly, and I could be totally off here, it looks like open face = lower loft, closed face = higher loft?

Am I off base here, Joe?

[joey3108]

Wadaya Think?

I'm gonna make sure the exact translation and I'm gonna ask a native speaker Japanese friend/s on this. SO far my understanding are (Left to right starting w/ yellow highlight) actual loft ( yellow ), Static loft ( orange ), Lie angle, and Face angle ( red ).

Joe :)

Since all the yellow column numbers are 8.5, 9.5, 10.5, I'm assuming those are the stated(marked) lofts. The orange column must be the actual(measured) lofts, no?I'm going to assume positive numbers in the pink column

Up to this point you are correct

are degrees closed: it's showing the R360 at 2.7° closed and I remember that club being a hook machine.

Generally, the clubs with closed faces have actual(measured) lofts that measure higher than their stated(marked) lofts, and the clubs with open faces have measured lofts that are lower than the marked lofts. So if I'm reading this chart correctly, and I could be totally off here, it looks like open face = lower loft, closed face = higher loft?

Am I off base here, Joe?

Any # w/ - marked on it is a close face angle ( red collum ).

It's should be easier to figure it out now. :)

Do you need the blue pill now? ( Viagra or Alive ) :D

[joey3108]

Speaking of manufacturing tolerances, is this why Nakashima is making a selling point of labeling their driver lofts more precisely? They ask for a batch of 10* heads, then measure, and you get heads actually labeled 9.8 - 10.4.

I like this thread, one of the more intelligent ones I have seen in weeks on any message board.

I think so ! They also told me that they don't use RAT GLUE to weight the heads.

[murch]

Hi,

Keep in mind you can read loft a few ways, Along the sole and up the face, which quite commonly matches the stamped loft. This takes into account the amount of dig or bounce designed in the head. but does not take into account the amount the hosel bore differs from perpendicular to the line of flight.

It is for this reason that for example, a driver stamped 10* and factory read along sole and up face will actually play with less or more loft dynamically. This is due to the Face angle and the relationship between the grounded sole and the shaft hosel plane.

So if the club is stamped 10* and the manufacturer read this with the sole plate grounded {common} but there was a tolerence with the hosel bore not quite being perpendicular to the flight line then it will be open or closed in face angle and with that, will play with more or less loft then what is read on the sole.

Sorry for my inability to type my message accross, sometimes I get a bit carried away. Hope I have added to this discussion in a helpful way. :roll: :lol:

Regards,

Chris

[tsg4tch]

Any # w/ - marked on it is a close face angle ( red collum ).

It would surprise the heck out of me if all those R360s were nearly 3° open-faced and the 580XDs are almost 2° open faced. The retail heads I have hit were closed-faced. Either that or I'm hooking open-faces and fading closed faces......don't answer that! :o;):)

[radd]

Tourtuned,

I'd disagree with Leadbetter, Vijays hands (note plural) the left is still on the club and hasn't rotated as much as people would think, his right hand has come off the club (the palm certainaly has) but if you look at the writing on the grip, I can't see this big rotation that his withered ET hand would suggest.

Both hands work in tandem, had there been a over pornounced roll, you'd see it in a hinged left wrist of rolled with knuckles pointing to the ground.

Maybe the camera is lying but I'd love to see high speed stills of his hands coming through the impact zone, I'd call it 'Vijays Hand Jive' if his set up is normal then his hand is slipping around the club or moving somewhere, both hands aren't working in tandem as the left looks Okay

these shots.

vj has a very strong left side that desnt allow him to release normally so

How a teaching Pro can say that's good is beyond me.

Does anybody else studied this, I'd like to know why Vijay has a kack-knackered grip ???

[boyce89976]

Okay, I'll throw this out just to add more confusion... when you open the face 1* it does not increase the loft by the same amount... in other words it's not a 1:1 ratio... more like 1:.75, meaning that a square faced, 9.5 driver would have a static loft of 10.25 after the face is opened 1*.