question on endo forging

[swing981]

Is endo forging considered the best in Japan..also what companies have there forgings done there??

[Craig]

I can see someone getting banned here ????

[supo]

hahahahahahahaaha

all in the eye of the behlolder.

they are most definatley the top foundry for soft feel clubs

others are good , but it seems endo forged produxcts just come out superb time and again.

difficult not to go for an endo forged product really.........,

but if u like a more solid impact then theres plenty of o thers to consider.

ilike both have a lot ofdiffernt forgings

endo kinda wins tho.............,

[jamnguy1]

It depends on how you define "best."

Certainly, I think they are a premier forging company.

But so many other companies use endo to forged some of their top irons and these irons can have different character and feel such that it becomes hard to characterize a particular "endo forged feel." Typically, endo forging is synonymous with quality.

[gbs]

Where i come from Majority would go for Miura. Myself i am a big Endo Fan. But most of the time, my mates don't realise that many of their Irons are Endo forged. When i buy an Iron set, personally i make sure that they are endo forged, unless they are for experimental purposes. :)

Edited April 13, 2011 by gbs

[swing981]

are the tourstage 705 type s endo.....next question guys...please explain difference between kyoeli vega and miura forged

[Vegaman]

are the tourstage 705 type s endo.....next question guys...please explain difference between kyoeli vega and miura forged

I think Vega is Kyoei's "House brand", a bit similar to what Epon is for Endo. Kyoei also forges a lot of "open" models for others brands to grind and shape. But I think they also do some more advanded milled forged stuff, like the Zestaim line. Miura, from what I understand, does not offer large scale production for other brands, just the occasional custom set (like the much discussed Tiger Nike blades). And I think Miura doesnt even forge theis own stuff at all, its mostly forged in china first and then finished in Japan? So Kyoei is a "real" forger with their own factory, grading their own steel billets and are doing one-piece forgings. Miura does not have its own factory, do 2-piece clubs using their proprietary "spin-weld" process, and is more a designer/grinder and subcontract the actual forging process..More like Scratch I would say. Correct me if Im wrong.

[supo]

chris..........................................................,

feel wise.

endo are the softest forgring.

miura are either realy soft i nthe uber top end or more solid in thier mid range

kyoei solid and dense with great feel.

mizzys soft and the most divverse range of options

kyoei make tons of open moulds. ive been cosndiering the copper option for a while but keep chickening out.

[jamnguy1]

chris..........................................................,

feel wise.

endo are the softest forgring.

miura are either realy soft i nthe uber top end or more solid in thier mid range

kyoei solid and dense with great feel.

mizzys soft and the most divverse range of options

kyoei make tons of open moulds. ive been cosndiering the copper option for a while but keep chickening out.

couldn't have said it better myself ... except mizzys can be softer than endo.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Endo is the best in the world hand's down IMO. Technology and JDM materials put them over the top. Recently they invested a huge amount of money into their Thailand factories They moved their best Japanese staff and retrained the thai employees to the next level. They also comply with international manufacturing standards at the highest level. The investment in their multiple Thai factories was needed because the main gripe from the OEM's is that Endo is too expensive, It's still too expensive compared to Chinese or Taiwanese factories. Japanese brands tend to use Endo because the Japanese people are willing to pay more for better product.

I wouldn't compare Miura to Endo because Miura doesn't forge their own heads or produce their own tooling. Endo is a monster of a company, they make medical & automotive parts at a very large scale as well. Miura is mom and pops, solid grind house with great attention to detail though, the only company that chooses to use spin welded hosels at the moment.

Vega is not Kyoei's in house brand. It's owned by the former president of Kyoei Mochizuki. They buy product from Kyoei like everyone else, lot's of family drama in that story! Zestaim is Kyoei's in house brand.

People make the assumption that Endo clubs feel alike. Design, loft, and sole grind are huge contributing factors to feel. Even more so than material. You can have all the clubs made by Endo using the same material and method yet no two designs will feel the same. That is why they have not messed with the AF-302 over the years. It's pure feel is considered optimal to many.

Another thing is Endo can perform manufacturing processes that no one else can, they adjust the annealing/heat treatment process at will, incorporate different mixtures, produce some technologies that they own not the OEM. They hold the power when dealing with OEM's where as other factories have a basic process they do very well and the OEM will choose them if it fits their price and design. Endo collaborates with the OEM's on how to improve the product and sometimes OEM's have an issue they can't figure out so they have to go to Endo.

Just about any factory can produce clubs softer than the other at will. Just mess with the heat treatment, or add a copper underlay, or produce a design that keeps vibration in tune. It's not about who's the softest it's a combination of a dozen different factors that can appeal to the personal taste of the many.

[swing981]

chris, thanks for the detailed and informative info..top notch

[ant]

question to folks here who hit both Epon and Mizuno MBs : how do you compare them feel wise ? i never had a chance to actually hit Epon but Mizuno feels very soft too me, even too soft for my liking.

couldn't have said it better myself ... except mizzys can be softer than endo.

[jamnguy1]

question to folks here who hit both Epon and Mizuno MBs : how do you compare them feel wise ? i never had a chance to actually hit Epon but Mizuno feels very soft too me, even too soft for my liking.

Mizuno MBs, the ones that I tried, are too soft for me. Don't like it.

If you typically find them too soft, you would do better with Epon, easily.

I like Miura feel, but not in every one of their models.

Zestaim I found not soft enough for me.

Of course, the caveat here is that we are not accounting for the type of shaft used.

[ant]

thanx jamnguy1! i'm very happy with my MB-5003, simply just curious what everybody is on about regarding Epon feel. so my understanding is that they are not as soft as Mizuno but not as solid as Miura, kinda in between. would it be roughly correct assumption, at least for MBs ? shaft contribution is a good point since thats what essentially transfers impact and vibration to the hands but still.

Mizuno MBs, the ones that I tried, are too soft for me. Don't like it.

If you typically find them too soft, you would do better with Epon, easily.

I like Miura feel, but not in every one of their models.

Zestaim I found not soft enough for me.

Of course, the caveat here is that we are not accounting for the type of shaft used.

[jamnguy1]

thanx jamnguy1! i'm very happy with my MB-5003, simply just curious what everybody is on about regarding Epon feel. so my understanding is that they are not as soft as Mizuno but not as solid as Miura, kinda in between. would it be roughly correct assumption, at least for MBs ? shaft contribution is a good point since thats what essentially transfers impact and vibration to the hands but still.

MB-5003 are very nice.

As an example, there were 3 finishes for these and 3 different subtle feel.

In terms of "softness" - black version softer than satin softer than chrome. The black heads also were heavier.

[supo]

Mizuno MBs, the ones that I tried, are too soft for me. Don't like it.

If you typically find them too soft, you would do better with Epon, easily.

I like Miura feel, but not in every one of their models.

Zestaim I found not soft enough for me.

Of course, the caveat here is that we are not accounting for the type of shaft used.

exactly............!!!,

my lastest discoery is how much the shaft makes a differnce in EVERY way to the heads

i used ot just think steel was steel, but no way !

the longer the iron u go dwn the more it makes a differnce in ease to hit

and the higher u go up the more precise they go depending on shaft choice.

after trying so many i found iliked the feel and ease of the softer NS models but neded the sterness of the x flex in the short irons

a DG shaft feels totally differnt than a NS in the same heads

trial and error made me find my optimum at the moment ,which is combo of both soft fel for long irons and low hard for the scoring ones.

i went NS super peening orange and blue combo to achieve this .

it really makes a huge differnce, more so than differnt s head types i beleive.

ths shaft IS the engine room.

make no msitake..............,

[ant]

sorry for confusion, i meant, would they stack up like this from softer to firmer feel : Mizuno, Epon, Miura ? as far as MuscleBacks are concerned at least. i'm just curious where Epon stands between the other too and if thats correct order in general based on my understanding.

black MB-5003 is very interesting, especially if they are heavier, i like heavier. that might help to avoid tape or plugs with right shaft. i read on this forum TourSpecGolfer saying that black finish version is special order only done in batches of 10 or more or something like that, or at least thats my recollection, so i guess they are not exactly very common. i wont expect black finish to hold well with heavy use but dont really care.

MB-5003 are very nice.

As an example, there were 3 finishes for these and 3 different subtle feel.

In terms of "softness" - black version softer than satin softer than chrome. The black heads also were heavier.

[supo]

Mizzys softer feel then endo in general?

idont know the naswer to that ive only hit the mp68s

they were very soft yes,

but EPON ithink are the softer .

the af-tours blades are just crazy easy soft to hit.

i dont see anything or i cetianly havnt hit anyting softer and easier in blades, not even close.

[jamnguy1]

exactly............!!!,

my lastest discoery is how much the shaft makes a differnce in EVERY way to the heads

i used ot just think steel was steel, but no way !

the longer the iron u go dwn the more it makes a differnce in ease to hit

and the higher u go up the more precise they go depending on shaft choice.

after trying so many i found iliked the feel and ease of the softer NS models but neded the sterness of the x flex in the short irons

a DG shaft feels totally differnt than a NS in the same heads

trial and error made me find my optimum at the moment ,which is combo of both soft fel for long irons and low hard for the scoring ones.

i went NS super peening orange and blue combo to achieve this .

it really makes a huge differnce, more so than differnt s head types i beleive.

ths shaft IS the engine room.

make no msitake..............,

Telling a golf club addict that steel is steel is like telling an eskimo snow is snow or a Japanese person rice is rice.

Finding the match between head and shaft is the part of the fun of the search or the agony depending on how one looks at it in terms of forever lusting after what is possible that has to be tried.

[jamnguy1]

sorry for confusion, i meant, would they stack up like this from softer to firmer feel : Mizuno, Epon, Miura ? as far as MuscleBacks are concerned at least. i'm just curious where Epon stands between the other too and if thats correct order in general based on my understanding.

black MB-5003 is very interesting, especially if they are heavier, i like heavier. that might help to avoid tape or plugs with right shaft. i read on this forum TourSpecGolfer saying that black finish version is special order only done in batches of 10 or more or something like that, or at least thats my recollection, so i guess they are not exactly very common. i wont expect black finish to hold well with heavy use but dont really care.

As a relative generalization, i think so. I tend to think miz were mushy.

Some older epon models had a clickier feel. Some miura are really soft.

I haven´t hit everything, but i think enough to tell the sometimes subjective difference.

I did own a set of black mb5003 and they did not wear well, but clubs are meant to be used and not just to be looked at.

The finish may have faded, but that´s it and doesn´t affect longevity of the club.

[Vegaman]

exactly............!!!,

my lastest discoery is how much the shaft makes a differnce in EVERY way to the heads

i used ot just think steel was steel, but no way !

the longer the iron u go dwn the more it makes a differnce in ease to hit

and the higher u go up the more precise they go depending on shaft choice.

after trying so many i found iliked the feel and ease of the softer NS models but neded the sterness of the x flex in the short irons

a DG shaft feels totally differnt than a NS in the same heads

trial and error made me find my optimum at the moment ,which is combo of both soft fel for long irons and low hard for the scoring ones.

i went NS super peening orange and blue combo to achieve this .

it really makes a huge differnce, more so than differnt s head types i beleive.

ths shaft IS the engine room.

make no msitake..............,

Ahh, interesting! I play the blue super peenings in X in my irons. One inch longer too..Always liked the feel with mid and short irons, precise and smooth. But the long irons, in my case very long long-irons due toe the added length are a bit too demanding and are really tough when the swing is not "on", even a bit harsh feeling at times..From what iron do you start with the orange peenings?

[supo]

3-4-5-6-7 hard stepped once in orange

8-9-pw in blue hard steppedd in stiff.

[Kiwitown]

exactly............!!!,

my lastest discoery is how much the shaft makes a differnce in EVERY way to the heads

i used ot just think steel was steel, but no way !

the longer the iron u go dwn the more it makes a differnce in ease to hit

and the higher u go up the more precise they go depending on shaft choice.

after trying so many i found iliked the feel and ease of the softer NS models but neded the sterness of the x flex in the short irons

a DG shaft feels totally differnt than a NS in the same heads

trial and error made me find my optimum at the moment ,which is combo of both soft fel for long irons and low hard for the scoring ones.

i went NS super peening orange and blue combo to achieve this .

it really makes a huge differnce, more so than differnt s head types i beleive.

ths shaft IS the engine room.

make no msitake..............,

So let me get this right "supo" what your saying is you play a softer shaft in your long irons? are we tailking flex? this is something i have been considering myself, but i am no fitting expert, (actually a real novice) ha! i am really interested to hear your thoughts a bit more about this as i play the DG S300 in my AP 2 irons which i like but don't love in the short 2 mid irons but struggle a bit with the 3,4 irons.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

[supo]

yes exactly.....,

i have many many sets of irons and ive tried loads of differnt styles.

but ive gravitated to the NS sps bec they ae firstly so tight and secondly with feel!

i have tendency to try and hit too hard with long irons esp with the harder flexed shafts

it was killing my desire to play 3 and 4 irons, and on my course back home i need to be able to play these or my score suffers.

so ive been working really hard on 3-4-5 irons at t the range , i always hit a lot of those irons to get them wired, and i found without a doubt that the slightly higher launching shafts suited my consistancy MUCH better than hitting SP blues, not being a automatron ball striker , ill take ALL the hlep i can get....

so i worked out that i hit so much more consistantly with a a tight shaft like the NS 1050 X which is stiff but light.

or a higher laucnhing mid kick one in heavier weight.

my tempo stays pure if i subconsciously know i dont have to muscle the ball to get it airborne.

esp on my home track which is short and many irons are required form tees a lot of the time and esp when it blows like a pornstar.

so i said ilove he feeling of the NS 1050 x shafts love them, but, they DO go very high, and they are light.

so i thought ilove t he set of yururi flatbacks i have with a set of sst pured NS SP orange

and ilove my set of kyoei NS sp blue

so i melded the idea to play like i explained above .

[supo]

the hard stepping idea came of course form the iron shaft master Carlo spoon.