bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I took the libery to ask the head of TM-Adidas PR Department to answer the retail TP versus "tour" issue that we have discussed for so many months. This should end the debate hut it probably won't. Some will say that Nick has no idea what he is talking about and should be ignored. I remind you that a statement by someone in Nick's capacity is considered an offical response and would make TM-Adidas libel if not true. Ill leave it at that. Here are my emails and His response: Nick, I just read this on a popular golf forum in reference to the difference between R7 TP heads and R7 "tour" heads. "Tour R7 heads are generally, and almost always made of a higher strength and more expensive grade of titanium than your average retail heads. A retail R7 head does not generally have to withstand the pounding of thousands of balls off the face at 120+ mph. For this reason, the Tour R7 head should be MORE durable." I have also been told that the "tour" R7 has a higher COG than the R7 TP. Is there any truth to the claim that "tour" heads are made better or differently from retail heads? Thanks Richard Madison -- Dear Richard, The majority of professional golfers use the r7 quad TP which is no different from the version on offer to the public. I hope this answers your question? Kind regards, Nick Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf I saw some wiggle room in this response so I re-asked it a more specific way. > Nick, thanks for your response. > > Would I be correct is stating that tour r7s are made in the exact same > manufacturing runs as retail TPs and do not get diifferent or > superior materials than the retail TP. That in fact there is no such > thing as a "tour" r7 model but only retail r7 TP that may have been > played on tour? > > Thanks Yes - The r7 TP that you see in store is the very same model that appears on Tour. The only difference is that we offer our Tour players a wider selection of shafts to suit their individual games. Kind regards, Nick -- Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I took the libery to ask the head of TM-Adidas PR Department to answer the retail TP versus "tour" issue that we have discussed for so many months. This should end the debate hut it probably won't. Some will say that Nick has no idea what he is talking about and should be ignored. I remind you that a statement by someone in Nick's capacity is considered an offical response and would make TM-Adidas libel if not true. Ill leave it at that. Here are my emails and His response:Nick, I just read this on a popular golf forum in reference to the difference between R7 TP heads and R7 "tour" heads. "Tour R7 heads are generally, and almost always made of a higher strength and more expensive grade of titanium than your average retail heads. A retail R7 head does not generally have to withstand the pounding of thousands of balls off the face at 120+ mph. For this reason, the Tour R7 head should be MORE durable." I have also been told that the "tour" R7 has a higher COG than the R7 TP. Is there any truth to the claim that "tour" heads are made better or differently from retail heads? Thanks Richard Madison -- Dear Richard, The majority of professional golfers use the r7 quad TP which is no different from the version on offer to the public. I hope this answers your question? Kind regards, Nick Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf I saw some wiggle room in this response so I re-asked it a more specific way. > Nick, thanks for your response. > > Would I be correct is stating that tour r7s are made in the exact same > manufacturing runs as retail TPs and do not get diifferent or > superior materials than the retail TP. That in fact there is no such > thing as a "tour" r7 model but only retail r7 TP that may have been > played on tour? > > Thanks Yes - The r7 TP that you see in store is the very same model that appears on Tour. The only difference is that we offer our Tour players a wider selection of shafts to suit their individual games. Kind regards, Nick -- Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf Thanks for the info Richard . It is very interesting to say the least . This will more than likely cause a major and lively debate . Should be interesting to see and read . :whistle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAQ Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 That's what I have heard to be true about the R7's too. Thanks for that post. The only caveat to this is the fact that there seems to be a completely different R7 club out there that has a wider face and it's not available in retail. Could be prototypes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Here we go again - your stock price in tour items just went down. Mike - how much for the DF ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HipCheck Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Thank God I haven't found a TM wood that I EVER liked. No worries! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 That's what I have heard to be true about the R7's too. Thanks for that post. The only caveat to this is the fact that there seems to be a completely different R7 club out there that has a wider face and it's not available in retail. Could be prototypes. There have been and will slways be new and differnt models unavailable to the public. The r7 is a released product. This is about whether the r7s on tour are protos or the same as the released version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david92 Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Is this anything to do with the pulled thread on bsg where something about TM was pulled as not being politically correct!!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtheback Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I took the libery to ask the head of TM-Adidas PR Department to answer the retail TP versus "tour" issue that we have discussed for so many months. This should end the debate hut it probably won't. Some will say that Nick has no idea what he is talking about and should be ignored. I remind you that a statement by someone in Nick's capacity is considered an offical response and would make TM-Adidas libel if not true. Ill leave it at that. Here are my emails and His response:Nick, I just read this on a popular golf forum in reference to the difference between R7 TP heads and R7 "tour" heads. "Tour R7 heads are generally, and almost always made of a higher strength and more expensive grade of titanium than your average retail heads. A retail R7 head does not generally have to withstand the pounding of thousands of balls off the face at 120+ mph. For this reason, the Tour R7 head should be MORE durable." I have also been told that the "tour" R7 has a higher COG than the R7 TP. Is there any truth to the claim that "tour" heads are made better or differently from retail heads? Thanks Richard Madison -- Dear Richard, The majority of professional golfers use the r7 quad TP which is no different from the version on offer to the public. I hope this answers your question? Kind regards, Nick Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf I saw some wiggle room in this response so I re-asked it a more specific way. > Nick, thanks for your response. > > Would I be correct is stating that tour r7s are made in the exact same > manufacturing runs as retail TPs and do not get diifferent or > superior materials than the retail TP. That in fact there is no such > thing as a "tour" r7 model but only retail r7 TP that may have been > played on tour? > > Thanks Yes - The r7 TP that you see in store is the very same model that appears on Tour. The only difference is that we offer our Tour players a wider selection of shafts to suit their individual games. Kind regards, Nick -- Nick Robbie Public Relations Executive TaylorMade adidas Maxfli Golf Richard, Just curious... why go to all the trouble to uncover the truth? I know you have some bad a$$ drivers that can stand up to 'Tour issue' and any retail head made. ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Richard,Just curious... why go to all the trouble to uncover the truth? I know you have some bad a$$ drivers that can stand up to 'Tour issue' and any retail head made. ????? Actually it is to our advantage that golfers think the major OEM retail stuff is inferior to the tour issue. But I can't stand to sit by and watch golfers pay that kind of dough wthout knowing the truth. I was curious and skeptical so I decided to find out and report it. If the answer had been different I would have reported that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonHack Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Richard, I gotta think that with this Todd will ban you, gotta be careful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Richard, I gotta think that with this Todd will ban you, gotta be careful... He might well but that is his call. I did nothing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtheback Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Here's my take on the whole tour issue... If the PR guy at TM is on the skinny(which I doubt, he is a PR guy after all- of course he wants everyone to believe: ' all our Tour players are playing the TP, off the shelf from edwin watts'- whatever, I don't buy it... 1) if they are- then the heads are xrayed and launch montitored to find which heads are the best of the barrels.... 2) it is also far to easy to use a different grade of Ti inget, more extensive Hipping process and different heat treating to create a different feel or whatever they want... regardless what the PR guys say..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Here's my take on the whole tour issue...If the PR guy at TM is on the skinny(which I doubt, he is a PR guy after all- of course he wants everyone to believe: ' all our Tour players are playing the TP, off the shelf from edwin watts'- whatever, I don't buy it... 1) if they are- then the heads are xrayed and launch montitored to find which heads are the best of the barrels.... 2) it is also far to easy to use a different grade of Ti inget, more extensive Hipping process and different heat treating to create a different feel or whatever they want... regardless what the PR guys say..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeceo Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Here's my take on the whole tour issue...If the PR guy at TM is on the skinny(which I doubt, he is a PR guy after all- of course he wants everyone to believe: ' all our Tour players are playing the TP, off the shelf from edwin watts'- whatever, I don't buy it... 1) if they are- then the heads are xrayed and launch montitored to find which heads are the best of the barrels.... 2) it is also far to easy to use a different grade of Ti inget, more extensive Hipping process and different heat treating to create a different feel or whatever they want... regardless what the PR guys say..... Actually there is an implied warranty of truth that TM is telling the general public when they make such statemnts I seriously doubt they can fudge/lie/mislead when literally 1000's of buyers are taking their word for it. The liability exposure from a class action lawsuit would be in the 10's of million$ and would dwarf any motivation to keep such a secret. They would just "No comment" if you were right IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbyporter Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Richard, I gotta think that with this Todd will ban you, gotta be careful... He might well but that is his call. I did nothing wrong. i didnt either and he banned me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonHack Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 robbyporter, are you also banned? oh my.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winfoot Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Now what about the R510 DF vs. TP. vs. TP Tour? Does this TM statement apply to these drivers? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtheback Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Here's my take on the whole tour issue...If the PR guy at TM is on the skinny(which I doubt, he is a PR guy after all- of course he wants everyone to believe: ' all our Tour players are playing the TP, off the shelf from edwin watts'- whatever, I don't buy it... 1) if they are- then the heads are xrayed and launch montitored to find which heads are the best of the barrels.... 2) it is also far to easy to use a different grade of Ti inget, more extensive Hipping process and different heat treating to create a different feel or whatever they want... regardless what the PR guys say..... Actually there is an implied warranty of truth that TM is telling the general public when they make such statemnts I seriously doubt they can fudge/lie/mislead when literally 1000's of buyers are taking their word for it. The liability exposure from a class action lawsuit would be in the 10's of million$ and would dwarf any motivation to keep such a secret. They would just "No comment" if you were right IMO. wanna to buy a bridge??? I'm not saying the whose right or wrong here, only that I have a very hard time believing anything some PR guys says... The only true way to find out is to do some testing on a tour head and retail head through an independant source....any donations? especially if theres 10"s of millions on the line(right! good luck with that one, even if you had proof..) it could be well worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbyporter Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 robbyporter, are you also banned? oh my.... sorry. i thought it was common knowledge. i was banned. i will go to my grave believing that i was wrongfully silenced. but it is ok. honestly it is the best thing that has happened to me. my stress level has gone down because i am not reading page after page of propaganda. and watching people bicker childishly. what i have done with my site is well recieved by everyone that has looked at it. we are a little different crowd with a little different agenda. i dont sell import equipment, or new stuff of any kind at this point. my agenda is one of customization. and getting fit clubs regardless of where they came from and who may or may not have played them. and, i honestly want everyone that comes to me to be satisfied and fit properly. i stand behind my work and my word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadriver Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Tour vs. Retail has been an interesting debate, to say the least. I'm not sure of the truth one way or the other...but I never understood why anyone would want to pay for that premium anyway. That it might have higher grade material?...Okay, that's logical--but in no way is the cost relative. (I have the same kind of thoughts/feeling about sports memorabilia. (sp?)) Now I say that even though I've paid premium $$$ for import stuff. My choice, right? Market demand, right? In my opinion the choice AND the debate should both be tolerated, accepted--in my opinion. As I've always said, "Play what you like...Pay what you like." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Richard, I gotta think that with this Todd will ban you, gotta be careful... He might well but that is his call. I did nothing wrong. if you dont want to look like a liar, i would suggest telling the truth. :whistle: Now THERE"S an original thought for Todd to ponder :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonartec_guy Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 it could just be in my head (o...k...) but my 540 xd tour is a COMPLETETLY DIFFERNT club than retail. teh feel is differnt, the weighting is differnt, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemolitionMan Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 It will cause less controversy here, so I will post a small nugget here. If some of the emails that have been forwarded to me are true, and considering the source, I have no reason to believe otherwise, part of the reason why there is confusion over tour vs retail when it comes to the TP line is this.... The first what we call "batch" of heads (and this could be one run, two runs, etc...) that are shipped to TM for the use of tour pros and other testers are still in flux when it comes to actual manufacturing specs as compared to the eventual retail product. The driver design itself is for argument purposes in stone. The shape, looks, paint scheme, edges, etc....are not going to change once the driver goes from proto stage where the quantity made is much less than 100 (more like 10-20) to production stage where the quanitites are in the 100s or even over 1000. In proto stage, there can still be very minor changes to the product from one run to the next that overall do not affect performance and TM's design goals, but it can feel a little different. For example, if I change the glue from one run to the next, it could feel a little different. If I change the weld pattern, it could feel different. THe emphasis is on could. Keep in mind, the same subcontractor and the same machinery is used to make the tour and retail product (TP lines). From a design point of view and manufacturing point of view, it is the same product. A lot of times the minute change from one proto run to the other is done by the manufacturer on their own. TM does not call them and say, oh for this run, can you source the Titanium elsewhere. TM probably insists on a baseline quality of Titanium but as long as it is met the manufacturer can get that from different places. As long as they meet the spec and the quality control numbers are achieved, little differences mean nothing to TM. It's like when a computer gets manufactured, the internal chips may get changed based on supplier costs/availability, etc....as long as it is running the same code, who cares where the chip came from, it only has to meet the baseline standard. In the end, you possibly have this scenario, although I am simplifying it. R7 is in proto stage and has run #1 it feels like X. TM expands the testing and has more tour pros using the R7 so run #2 is needed. Before run #3 quantities in a larger number the manufacturer (on its own) changes the process slightly to accommodate better production numbers and meet demand. Time passes and we get up to run #7, the TP line with final retail graphics. Before run #7, the manufacturer changes the prodcution schedule and machine time to another location in the plant because the machines and personnel that did run #1 are working on another proto. It's the same design spec, all the same materials. But guess what, run #7 feels slightly different than run #1 and run #3. Why? Who knows? To TM it is irrelevant. To us mortals, at best, it just feels a little different, but that does not make the so called proto, or tour driver any better or worse than the TP. Lastly, we cannot account for the part of the different feel debate that is feuled by mental nonsense (including profit motivation). A tour pro can be given (and this happens frequently) 10 drivers to try on the range all pretty close to his specs. The driver heads are the same, maybe one or two will be a different loft for fun. But the point being, the tour pro takes a handful of identical drivers and finds one he likes and dicards the rest. Now did he like that one because it was manufactured with a different titanium? No. Was it made in a special lab? No. It's a mental issue why the feel is slightly different. You could take that driver away two weeks later and put it in a box with ten others with the same specs and he may not choose it again. It's all mental in the world of golf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kooch1221 Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 What has to be the single the most ironic thing going on right now is that the BIGGEST thread going right now over at BSG is for a 299$ stock PING driver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadriver Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 It will cause less controversy here, so I will post a small nugget here. If some of the emails that have been forwarded to me are true, and considering the source, I have no reason to believe otherwise, part of the reason why there is confusion over tour vs retail when it comes to the TP line is this.... The first what we call "batch" of heads (and this could be one run, two runs, etc...) that are shipped to TM for the use of tour pros and other testers are still in flux when it comes to actual manufacturing specs as compared to the eventual retail product. The driver design itself is for argument purposes in stone. The shape, looks, paint scheme, edges, etc....are not going to change once the driver goes from proto stage where the quantity made is much less than 100 (more like 10-20) to production stage where the quanitites are in the 100s or even over 1000. In proto stage, there can still be very minor changes to the product from one run to the next that overall do not affect performance and TM's design goals, but it can feel a little different. For example, if I change the glue from one run to the next, it could feel a little different. If I change the weld pattern, it could feel different. THe emphasis is on could. Keep in mind, the same subcontractor and the same machinery is used to make the tour and retail product (TP lines). From a design point of view and manufacturing point of view, it is the same product. A lot of times the minute change from one proto run to the other is done by the manufacturer on their own. TM does not call them and say, oh for this run, can you source the Titanium elsewhere. TM probably insists on a baseline quality of Titanium but as long as it is met the manufacturer can get that from different places. As long as they meet the spec and the quality control numbers are achieved, little differences mean nothing to TM. It's like when a computer gets manufactured, the internal chips may get changed based on supplier costs/availability, etc....as long as it is running the same code, who cares where the chip came from, it only has to meet the baseline standard. In the end, you possibly have this scenario, although I am simplifying it. R7 is in proto stage and has run #1 it feels like X. TM expands the testing and has more tour pros using the R7 so run #2 is needed. Before run #3 quantities in a larger number the manufacturer (on its own) changes the process slightly to accommodate better production numbers and meet demand. Time passes and we get up to run #7, the TP line with final retail graphics. Before run #7, the manufacturer changes the prodcution schedule and machine time to another location in the plant because the machines and personnel that did run #1 are working on another proto. It's the same design spec, all the same materials. But guess what, run #7 feels slightly different than run #1 and run #3. Why? Who knows? To TM it is irrelevant. To us mortals, at best, it just feels a little different, but that does not make the so called proto, or tour driver any better or worse than the TP. Lastly, we cannot account for the part of the different feel debate that is feuled by mental nonsense (including profit motivation). A tour pro can be given (and this happens frequently) 10 drivers to try on the range all pretty close to his specs. The driver heads are the same, maybe one or two will be a different loft for fun. But the point being, the tour pro takes a handful of identical drivers and finds one he likes and dicards the rest. Now did he like that one because it was manufactured with a different titanium? No. Was it made in a special lab? No. It's a mental issue why the feel is slightly different. You could take that driver away two weeks later and put it in a box with ten others with the same specs and he may not choose it again. It's all mental in the world of golf. I know you won't reveal your source. I find it very interesting and credible, logical, and probably the most believable thing I've read on the subject...but tell us more about where it came from--please. Thank you for the post. Dwayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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