TaylorMade responds to tour "retail" versus &quot

[Canadian_Junior]

It will cause less controversy here, so I will post a small nugget here.  

If some of the emails that have been forwarded to me are true, and considering the source, I have no reason to believe otherwise, part of the reason why there is confusion over tour vs retail when it comes to the TP line is this....

The first what we call "batch" of heads (and this could be one run, two runs, etc...) that are shipped to TM for the use of tour pros and other testers are still in flux when it comes to actual manufacturing specs as compared to the eventual retail product.  The driver design itself is for argument purposes in stone.  The shape, looks, paint scheme, edges, etc....are not going to change once the driver goes from proto stage where the quantity made is much less than 100 (more like 10-20) to production stage where the quanitites are in the 100s or even over 1000.

In proto stage, there can still be very minor changes to the product from one run to the next that overall do not affect performance and TM's design goals, but it can feel a little different.  For example, if I change the glue from one run to the next, it could feel a little different.  If I change the weld pattern, it could feel different.  THe emphasis is on could.

Keep in mind, the same subcontractor and the same machinery is used to make the tour and retail product (TP lines).  From a design point of view and manufacturing point of view, it is the same product.  A lot of times the minute change from one proto run to the other is done by the manufacturer on their own.  TM does not call them and say, oh for this run, can you source the Titanium elsewhere.  TM probably insists on a baseline quality of Titanium but as long as it is met the manufacturer can get that from different places.  As long as they meet the spec and the quality control numbers are achieved, little differences mean nothing to TM.  It's like when a computer gets manufactured, the internal chips may get changed based on supplier costs/availability, etc....as long as it is running the same code, who cares where the chip came from, it only has to meet the baseline standard.

In the end, you possibly have this scenario, although I am simplifying it.  R7 is in proto stage and has run #1 it feels like X.  TM expands the testing and has more tour pros using the R7 so run #2 is needed. Before run #3 quantities in a larger number the manufacturer (on its own) changes the process slightly to accommodate better production numbers and meet demand.  Time passes and we get up to run #7, the TP line with final retail graphics.  Before run #7, the manufacturer changes the prodcution schedule and machine time to another location in the plant because the machines and personnel that did run #1 are working on another proto.  It's the same design spec, all the same materials.  But guess what, run #7 feels slightly different than run #1 and run #3.  Why?  Who knows?  To TM it is irrelevant.  To us mortals, at best, it just feels a little different, but that does not make the so called proto, or tour driver any better or worse than the TP.

Lastly, we cannot account for the part of the different feel debate that is feuled by mental nonsense (including profit motivation).  A tour pro can be given (and this happens frequently) 10 drivers to try on the range all pretty close to his specs.  The driver heads are the same, maybe one or two will be a different loft for fun.  But the point being, the tour pro takes a handful of identical drivers and finds one he likes and dicards the rest.  Now did he like that one because it was manufactured with a different titanium?  No.  Was it made in a special lab?  No.  It's a mental issue why the feel is slightly different.  You could take that driver away two weeks later and put it in a box with ten others with the same specs and he may not choose it again.

It's all mental in the world of golf.

Very good post, thanks for getting it up and taking time to post all that :cool:

As for the mental part i agree. I am a single digit handicap and if you gave me a tour TM club head and retail i do not know if i could tell the difference (if they had the same shaft, loft etc)

I think it would be interesting to see what golfers chose if they didn't know which was tour or retail. Would be interesting for a few guys to do at one of those "outings" there seems to be all the time.

[par4bmw]

Those that have hit tour models now that they are "different", at least the ones I have hit. Whether they are better is certainly questionable. They are definitely risky in whether they will fit you.

I have owned two tour R7's, a TP, a retail and a "max". I currently have one of the tours and the non-compliant "max". The TP hit different than the two tours. One tour did not work at all for me. It was too open and hit the ball lower. The tour I have now hits higher than the TP with weights the same. The sound is clearly different in the tour models.

The debate is worthy on what is "best" for you, but that is BS in that there is no difference. TM wants to sell TP stuff making people believe this is the exact same as what they buy. The pro has a head that is the face angle, weight and cog that they desire.

The 200 tour fairways are the ultimate example of differences. The smooth top was not even offered as a retail and definitely hits different than the retail. I have a "clarke" 13* 200 tour that also is different than the 200 ridgetops. Again, any oem has some tour stuff that differs from their retail, but that does not mean everybody will hit them better.

[scratchgolfnut69]

I would never believe anything a PR man would say. He would obviously want you to buy retail since the sale of a tour head would net the company $0.000.000.000 in profit. As for this whole debate about "tour" and "retail" being the same is a bunch of :bulls**t:

I didn't believe it until i hit some of each. For anyone who has hit a XD tour and an XD retail they are like comparing apples to oranges. If anyone doesn't believe this they need their head examined :wink:

So let it go already guys!

[hoover]

That's what I have heard to be true about the R7's too.  Thanks for that post.  

The only caveat to this is the fact that there seems to be a  completely different R7 club out there that has a wider face and it's not available in retail.  Could be prototypes.

There have been and will slways be new and differnt models unavailable to the public. The r7 is a released product. This is about whether the r7s on tour are protos or the same as the released version.

I saw in another post/thread that they are coming out with a new R7 HT that has a wider, shallower face and is easier to get up in the air for average golfers. A local shop owner I know was really pi$$ed off when I told him about it. He has a rack full of new R7s that he can't sell, and now there's another model coming out. Drivers are becoming like computers - obsolete before you leave the shop.

[Sgt_Slaughter]

thats a great post blade. we now know the truth

[tsg4tch]

I'm afraid we'll never know the real truth about this. I've always wondered one thing, though: If there is no difference between tour and retail driver heads why do they use different serial numbers? If they wanted to track the heads, different types of numbers aren't required--is TOxxxxxx B3 easier to enter than xxxxxxx? I don't get that.

My personal experience: I've hit a lot of retail R510TPs(well over 20 different ones) and none had the sound/feel of my tour heads. Interestingly, my R510DF "Titanium" on the toe, my R510TP "Z" serial #, and my R510TP "T" serial plus batch # heads all have the same feel/sound even though they were manufactured at different times. Now, I don't have the time, desire, or repeatable swing to accurately measure the performance of these heads--they all go far enough. But the "tour" heads do have a different feel/sound.

I don't have access to a tour R7 to compare with retail.

[joey3108]

I would like to share a little bit of mine if you guys don't mind.

TM Tour issue club is not made out of different material as far as i know. They might have a few subcontractor manufacturing the head but i'm sure they have to follow OEM guidance to get a consistent product.

There are always Manufacturing tolerance here and there. That is why they have quality control department.

Tour dept ussually sort them out again to hand pick the head to go to the tour van or their dept. Off course now a days they want to make sure that everything goes to the tour is at legal maximum COR.

Working on the TM heads everyday from retail to tour, I saw a few different in their spec, again not material.

Face angle, weight, marking ( some ), etc.

R7: "Mostly" they've hand picked the heavier head for the tour dept/van and a liitle more open face angle. Anything over 2* open face, mostly are tweak w/ their special bending machine. I can tell all of them has a several bending mark on the hosel and most of the the hosel is not perfectly round anymore.

Tour 510 tp or DF are "mostly" heavier and different feel are because of more rat glue inside the head when they adjusted the head weight, especially the one by the face area. Face angle are "mostly" more open too on this.

I've done it so many time for a friends and close customers in helping them picking a club from the retail store shelf and brough it in my shop and adjusted the weight internally. Quite few of them I've hand picked from the shelf by bringing my "golf club gauge machine" to find a specific head spec.

However, I can tell you for sure that not all PGA pro like to play those spec and some of them even play w/ retail stuff. I've seen a PGA pro walk in the store and bought a retail driver on his second day of tourney ( he shot 75 that day and pissed! ) and played it all the way and finish top 10 that week.

Again , Those are "some" of experiences that i could share.

Cheers!

Joe :cool:

[bladeceo]

Tour dept ussually sort them out again to hand pick the head to go to the tour van or their dept. Off course now a days they want to make sure that everything goes to the tour is at legal maximum COR.

Working on the TM heads everyday from retail to tour, I saw a few different in their spec, again not material.

Face angle, weight, marking ( some ), etc.

I totally concur. With a 1* tolerance on FA, lie and loft and a 3gm weight tolerance you can get anywhere from an 8.5 1* closed and 197 gram head to a 10.5 1* open and 203 gram head within the same manufacuring run based on a requested spec of 9.5* loft , 0* FA(square) and 200 grams weight.

That gives an OEM a multitiude of custom options as long as the heads are individually marked as they are especially for picking for tour and custom options. Also that is just 1 9.5* speced run. With the 7.5-10.5* runs and a requested .5 open FA(TM TP specs) and you can fit 99% of all golfers including the tour without ever having to make a custom run. Add in the ability to add weight(rat glue) change COG( where you add the glue) and the ability to bend the hosels and you have all the flexibilty you will ever need without changing any material or tooling.

Also keep in mind that these will all feel a little different based on spec and customization.

[nobogey]

$.02

Tour department and Retail are completely unrelated entity's with OEM's.

You are basing your theories with data supplied from the the same sources that claim Tour Clubs do not exist(example: titleist). The response you received should prompt you to laugh at how uninformed and foolish this guy is, not to validate his ignorance.

I live in Western Michigan an area that is home to several large Titanium and Steel Foundries. Howmet, a local firm was one of the largest suppliers of Titanium Driver heads in the world. Producing heads for Mizuno worldwide and Cobra up until recently, and still a large supplier for Golfsmith. 100% from qualified sources that work in the metal industry: Companies use different grades of Titanium for different clubs(big duh on that one). Different grades require different tooling, which is also produced in great quantity here. I do not think that anyone really thinks they use a different metal, its just that all 6-4 or Sp700 is not created or refined equally. The difference may not be as large as often thought of, I'll conceed that. As pure or perfect as it comes, that's the TI they use for these limited runs. Beleive what you wish, I will take my comfort in first hand knowledge and refrain from getting worked up at info from a biased source(competitor of big brands).

[haribo]

Honestly, I find it almost pathetic how grown ups can argue with such passion about this retail/tour bulls**t.

Who cares. Honestly, other than paying a ton more money (to Todd in worst case) what does the difference actually mean? Nada, nothing.

It's not like it will revolutionize one's game. Definitely not for us mere mortals. The only real difference that matters is in one's head. Period.

Yes, there will be always a few stating that only Tour clubs work for them. I beg to differ. The club in question is probably just tweaked in a way that it happen to fit that person's game. BUT I'm positve if you take a retail head, get it Kwok'd and put in a decent shaft that person won't see a difference.

Must admit I played the occasional TM tour head as well. Didn't make a diff whatsoever. The change in feel was (as Joe stated) based on more weight due to rat glue but frankly barely noticeable anyways.

Btw, just got myself a R7. Because I wanted to ty another shaft than Fujikura for a change (ACCRA) I didn't even bother getting a TP. It's a regular retail R7 and the shaft it chimmed. into the bigger hosel. Let me tell you it works like a charm.

To finish my rant let me say this. I'm starting to wonder if the entire reason for insisting on a big time different is maybe either a bruised ego for admitting to being so dumm to ever believing the big con-man or the need for show-off value.

Now feel free to flame me.

haribo

[aviator]

Consider yourself flamed! :surprize: Just joking, I actually agree with you. If you are a player, you are a player, tour club or not. If you suck, you suck, tour club or not. SO, why DOES it really matter so much? Kind of stinks if you pay a ton of money for the latest tour stick and you still can't play your way out of a wet paper sack. Guess you have to justify spending all that green somehow, so you just argue about how much better and different a tour TP is from a retail TP. Think I'd rather spend my time practicing and lowering my scores. Oh yeah, I play a 510DF proto, but I don't hit it any better than the retail TP I have also hit occasionally.

[tsg4tch]

Honestly, I find it almost pathetic how grown ups can argue with such passion about this retail/tour bulls**t.

Who's arguing? :roll:

...admitting to being so dumm to ever believing...

haribo

Uhh, that would be d-u-m-b. :whistle:

[kr0nik]

There was a time in the pre-BSG days when tour clubs where often cheaper than retail on eBay. They were cheaper because they were usually used and sometimes marked differently from retail. I would see these things on eBay and would pass on them because I wasn't sure they'd be any good or if they were genuine. I kind of miss those days.

[FAQ]

There was a time in the pre-BSG days when tour clubs where often cheaper than retail on eBay. They were cheaper because they were usually used and sometimes marked differently from retail. I would see these things on eBay and would pass on them because I wasn't sure they'd be any good or if they were genuine. I kind of miss those days.

Kr0nik - that's before my tour club time. Amazing. Of course the issue of them being genuine is still there, but price? Wow.

[haribo]

...

(... decided to edit my own post ... haribo)

[gth1017]

thats a great post blade. we now know the truth

"And the truth shall set ye free".

I'm a little bored with the tour/retail debate. Does anyone have an opinion whether it's harder with Viagra or without it?

[bladeceo]

I'm a little bored with the tour/retail debate. Does anyone have an opinion whether it's harder with Viagra or without it?  

That depends. If the regular retail viagra the is a tad softer and is not as long as the general public does not need to use it as often. The real pros on cable need the tour stuff which is harder and longer. You can get the tour stuff on VSG. But be careful because the VSGA has approved the tour version for sanctioned events. To be sure if your Viagra is safe to use in a particular event you will need to contact your local VGA pro.

[lonniejt]

If you don't have a "course" to play on, that SOB will stay hard a long, long, long time...whether it is Tour or Off the Shelf :surprize:

[robbie]

sorry boyz...its true.....there is absolutely no difference between retail and tour, they are one and the same, for 2005 TM will issue vouchers which will be good at all TM retailers thereby eliminating the tour van completely ! the top players however will be given a stipend to adjust their clubs as they see fit !!!!! however for limited items, such as TP limited releases, the tour players will be given preference when ordering, if your shop is slated to receive only 2 sets of TP irons, the tour pro can reserve them in advance. This is absolutely true, ive heard this from someone very high up in thhe TM organization, i think it is the brother in law of Taylor himself. Recent studies by the Lawrence Livermore Labs have shown that the tour and retail clubs are within 99.99999% tolerances, with the retails being slightly longer ! after all pros dont pay for equipment ! but customers do ! i hope this settles the issue of tour vs retail forever ! all of these statements can be confirmed by calling Mr. Taylor and asking him what he has "Made" in the last few months ! Please expect some delay in answering because Mr. Taylor travels quite a bit, he has been known to vacation in China, and work while on vacation hence Taylor Made in China, or Japan, or USA........As for Miura, there is no such thing !!! It was a a concept that Mr. Taylor devised to make his product more interesting, he borrowed this idea from Kevin Spacey in the Usual Suspects !!!!!

[scratchgolfnut69]

Robbie, so you're saying that Kevin Spacey forges all of Mr. Taylors clubs :beer2: :roll: :wink:

[LilCallaway]

HERE, HERE!!!!!

Thank God I haven't found a TM wood that I EVER liked.  No worries! :wink: