TW's Nike One Platinum

[xxio]

Except for the cheaper to do forgings in Japan part.....Okay agreed..... agree to disagree.

You say American craftsmanship and innovation as better. I say that the Japanese have better craftsmanship and innovation.

Done.

Strange about the smiley coming out like that though. I guess that causes lots of misunderstandings.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

So I'm sorry if I'm not going to drink the kool aide on this subject, I just don't believe Japanese made is any better than American made.

I am American and,...

Quality is better in Japan hands down. If you cant tell, wow :surprize:

Manufacturing: Many Military grade Materials and non compliant EPA regulated Chemicals are illegal in the United States. U.S plating companies cant provide as "quality" finishes like Satin, Chrome etc. The Chemicals are said to cause cancer. The best forged golf head is found in Japan. please if you could just show me of some better U.S forged heads....please. Japanese forged steel is the best in the world, its a process they have been doing hundreds of years.

Craftsmanship: They Apprentice for years in their trade, they work longer hours than we do and very meticulously with so much pride. This trickles into every industry, electronics, cars and parts, Innovation etc.. Hand grinding is a respected trade where as the U.S OEMS out source to other parts of Asia where they use pitted steel and the non golfing, little experience, lower paid hand grinding staff that has an output of about 4000 sets a month compared to Japans very limited output. Americans don't even build the OEMS equipment its almost all made in China, Thailand, etc so how can we really compare?

Technology: Sometimes it takes innovation 4 years to get the U.S, not because its junk but because the American customer is more bargain oriented. you can do so much more with 500.00 production cost vs 200.00. More internal weighting designs, more technical options to choose from. Japanese R&D is intense and they are just a high tech sorta people.

If you can give us some examples of American made clubs or foundries I could better help you compare and understand why the Quality of Material, Craftsmanship, QC, and finish is better made in Japan.

BTW China and Taiwan make the best drivers IMO.

Anyway guys, I get to hit both U.S clubs and Japanese, Honestly no BS this stuff is better all around, thats why I fell in love with it and that is why I made this place. I too wish it was much cheaper but my prices are not too far off what the U.S Oem Chinese made clubs are going for in the recent. Its not the Arrow, I know, but you do get what you pay for....the best. :nos**t:

[gjones77]

So I'm sorry if I'm not going to drink the kool aide on this subject, I just don't believe Japanese made is any better than American made.

I am American and,...

Quality is better in Japan hands down. If you cant tell, wow :surprize:

Manufacturing: Many Military grade Materials and non compliant EPA regulated Chemicals are illegal in the United States. U.S plating companies cant provide as "quality" finishes like Satin, Chrome etc. The Chemicals are said to cause cancer. The best forged golf head is found in Japan. please if you could just show me of some better U.S forged heads....please. Japanese forged steel is the best in the world, its a process they have been doing hundreds of years.

Craftsmanship: They Apprentice for years in their trade, they work longer hours than we do and very meticulously with so much pride. This trickles into every industry, electronics, cars and parts, Innovation etc.. Hand grinding is a respected trade where as the U.S OEMS out source to other parts of Asia where they use pitted steel and the non golfing, little experience, lower paid hand grinding staff that has an output of about 4000 sets a month compared to Japans very limited output. Americans don't even build the OEMS equipment its almost all made in China, Thailand, etc so how can we really compare?

Technology: Sometimes it takes innovation 4 years to get the U.S, not because its junk but because the American customer is more bargain oriented. you can do so much more with 500.00 production cost vs 200.00. More internal weighting designs, more technical options to choose from. Japanese R&D is intense and they are just a high tech sorta people.

If you can give us some examples of American made clubs or foundries I could better help you compare and understand why the Quality of Material, Craftsmanship, QC, and finish is better made in Japan.

BTW China and Taiwan make the best drivers IMO.

Anyway guys, I get to hit both U.S clubs and Japanese, Honestly no BS this stuff is better all around, thats why I fell in love with it and that is why I made this place. I too wish it was much cheaper but my prices are not too far off what the U.S Oem Chinese made clubs are going for in the recent. Its not the Arrow, I know, but you do get what you pay for....the best. :nos**t:

Chris, the Japanese craftsman ship is no better than American, if you put both side to side, they would be equals.

Like I said, the only reason that things are done in Japan and China is cost, pure and simple.

No offense, but in this debate you're not really an unbiased voice, since you're site sells primarily Japanese made equipment.

None the less, it's all a matter of opinion.

And if you want an example, up until recently Ping's forging was all done here in the US, and for years their equipment was the defacto standard.

They're since moved operations to China for cost reasons.

And as for craftman ship, all I have to say is Scotty Cameron, Bob bettinardi, and David Mills.

If cost wasn't a factor, the forgings would be done here, and the quality would be equal to the Japanese.

It all comes down to cost, and you're right, American's are more cost concious, we always have been, if we weren't then this country would be in the same poor financial shape as many other countries, we're not going to pay for technology for technology's sake.

In the end, if it wasn't for the Scottish we wouldn't be talking about golf.

In the end Chris, it was American invention and designs the allowed the Japanese to improve on the initial design.

And just because it's released in Japan first does not mean it's made there.

All the initial design and engineering came out of either Carlsbad, CA, (TM, Callaway) Acushnet, MA (Titliest) Chicopee, MA (Ben Hogan) etc...

So, I'll stick with American gear, and you can go with Japanese, it's all perference, just remember where it all started.

[hornyjuan]

If cost wasn't a factor, the forgings would be done here, and the quality would be equal to the Japanese.  

That's the thing though. To US based companies, cost is a factor and that is why they outsource alot of clubs to china, thailand, etc. With Japanese companies like Hiro Matsumoto, Gauge Design, GF, MOZ, Tourstage cost is not as big a factor as quality and reputation because they know their market base will buy the products because they get what they pay for. With any business, cost will be a factor as you can't expect to sell an item that cost you more money to make than your ability to sell the item. With US companies, the focus is on the bottom line, the cheapest cost and the highest selling points = mucho profit.

Don't get me wrong, I have numerous domestic clubs and TM clubs made in china that are great clubs but I've played ten's of thousands of dollars in equipment and the Japanese stuff just flat out screams quality. You can't honestly tell me that my Hiro Matsumoto irons are the same quality as ping i3's??? Of course price point wise Japanese clubs aren't exactly at the bargain bin section but like I say, you get what you pay for.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Where are you examples? your Foundries? your famous American hand grinders?

Chris, the Japanese craftsman ship is no better than American, if you put both side to side, they would be equals.

Both side to side no comparison. Are you angry with me or just blind because pics alone prove the quality is unmatched in finish, grind, and technology. You really need to try some quality Japan stuff and learn more about the golf clubs you are hitting. American made is now China made.

Call me bias all you want, the fact still remains that you cant find an example foundry or product that comes close what Japan has. show me the Examples as I asked you. I can show you pages.

Like I said, the only reason that things are done in Japan and China is cost, pure and simple.

The reason why things are not made in America is because of cost of labor, material, unexperienced staff and Chemical restrictions. The Japanese steel is more expensive, the employee is paid more, the staff is more experienced and QC is overwhelmingly better in almost all cases. Did you not read about the Chemicals and Materials...Do you think thats a pitch for me to sell my clubs? I cant even name one master hand grinder in the U.S, please help me with that.

The American customer is not willing to spend as much as the Japanese on average therefore they will get a less expensive design. there are countless examples of this right now in the golf industry. Srixon W403 vs 404 mizuno MX-17 & MX-23 vs MP-27 & JPX, CLK vs UX2, High fli2 vs UX1 etc etc etc...to many to list. more can be put into a 1000.00 club than a club that costs 500.00 to make.

And if you want an example, up until recently Ping's forging was all done here in the US, and for years their equipment was the defacto standard.

Ping? so you compare the U.S made clubs by Ping to Japanese quality? please tell me why? do you know what they used to make them? who grinded them? Bad example dude, it really shows you haven't experienced real high quality golf clubs yet. I was expecting ping if you didn't know much but figured you would say Hoffman's because you kinda sounded like you knew what you were talking about.

And as for craftman ship, all I have to say is Scotty Cameron, Bob bettinardi, and David Mills.

FYI Scotty Cameron retails are mass produced in China.

T.P mills is using forged Carbon Steel ( cheapest decent putter material ) Hand welded neck's are not the most accurate in regards to weighting and balance. T.P putters also have very little R&D before putting out a design and many times that design is non symmetrical.

bettinardi is top notch USA but they only make putters.

If cost wasn't a factor, the forgings would be done here, and the quality would be equal to the Japanese.

Why would the forging be done in the U.S.A? The better material and artisans are located in Japan. The American Golfer is not willing to shell out big bucks as the Japanese are. Why sell the best high end most expensive product to the people who wont buy?

All the initial design and engineering came out of either Carlsbad, CA, (TM, Callaway) Acushnet, MA (Titliest) Chicopee, MA (Ben Hogan) etc...  

Solomon Adidas/TM is a German company...lol the top designer isn't even American and all the brands listed above are seriously mass produced in China @ huge volume. QC is poor, quality of steel is poor, and grinders are unexperienced ( many just out of high school ). Volume is set way to high to expect something perfect and uniform. Ask someone who works with Japanese forged clubs how the 2005 TP irons feel when bending compared to a Himeji forged set. Titileist , Hogan and Callaway use Endo Thailand as well so i don't exactly get what you are saying about American quality.

In the end, if it wasn't for the Scottish we wouldn't be talking about golf.  

In the end Chris, it was American invention and designs the allowed the Japanese to improve on the initial design.  

And just because it's released in Japan first does not mean it's made there.

What would remembering Scotland creating golf have to do with The differences and details in regards to why Japanese Crafting and clubs are the best? Argue the facts, material, craftsmanship, design, and QC. I care not about nationality of the company. I am very able to shred Japanese OEMs also.

For you to give a fair analysis of the quality level we are talking about here you would have had to hit many of the best Japanese clubs and American side by side as I do. No disrespect but If you were here in person I could honestly teach you what to look for and why certain things are better.

[dlee360]

Wow....Agree completely with TourSpecGolfer.

[jim_0068]

To respond to the one person's post:

The Nike One Platinum is on the USGA approved ball list but it is under a different name to fool the Darrel Survey people so no one would know about it.

If you go to www.usga.org and download their conforming ball list it has 5 different versions of the Nike One Gold TW ball.

hope that helps

[taipanli]

I would much rather pay US prices for my equipment but since I only buy the best, I have to buy Japanese equipment and shove the prices up my a**! :surprize:

Stating that Japanese equipment is superior comes from years of buying truckloads of clubs from the US and Japan. There is no comparison in quality. Simply said, I have always found the Japanese manufactured irons to be more consistent - lofts, swing weights, distances etc. On closer inspection, you will notice the attention to detail - just look at Japanese club mfr. websites. They give you the full specs and even denote the weight tolerances for the clubheads. Face angle, swing weights, head weights etc. etc. it's all there. Keep in mind that we are discussing retail equipment available to anyone and not "Tour" equipment which should adhere to exacting standards as demanded by the pros.

As for US craftsmanship, I can't tell you how many people in HK make a great living from sourcing A-Z for US wholesalers and retailers. IMHO, you cannot put USA and craftsmanship in the same context. As soon as someone seeks out quality/expensive product, where do they turn to? For cars it's Germany and Italy - for jewellery and luxury goods it's France and Italy - for electronics it's Japan (mostly) - for boats/yachts it's Italy, the UK, and other European boat yards - for watches it's Switzerland and Germany, and on and on. Let me nevertheless state that I'm a MAC addict and that's a real USA brand (even though most of the components are made in Asia as well). Still, although Dell and HP are still No.1 and 2 in terms of sales volume, people immediately turn to PCs like the SONY VAIO when money is no object and they want the best. (I'm generalizing a little but that's the trend).

Before I get hell from anyone, I want to say that I'm a Red Sox and Patriots fan and mostly follow US sports! :cool: They don't make rivalries like the Red Sox vs. Yankees anywhere but in the good old US of A!!! :laugh: