Tour vs. Retail revisited

[rhowardprd]

Well, I've finally found the time to get back to this board. I sold the MR23 Japanese diamond backs. Thanks for the help with the history.

I just read through some old threads here about retail versus tour and how much or little the difference is. I guess many players fret about spending money on top equipment, or worry whether they actually need the Gauge or Fourteen or Epon clubs they are fixed on.

So, here's some added info you al might enjoy. Hope I am not bringing coals to Newcastle, so to speak.

Consider these:

Nicklaus reported collecting a bag of his favorite clubs, each of a different model or manufacturer. Some years later a club builder tested them and found that put together they formed a perfectly matched set. None of them were tour products, which really didn't exist then, circa 1960s. But, putters and woods were customizable even then -- with different face materials wood types and putter shapes. Irons were very much different with only one flex and long deep hosels. I recently shafted some 1967 MacGregor VIPS with modern shafts, Project X 5.5. The cpm of the 5 iron came out to 322, which is off the chart. Why? The hosel is so long and deep it makes the club as if it had been tipped an extra inch.

Even so, I mustered up enough muscle to hit the 5 iron (31 degrees) about 170. And it took all I had. Yes, Nicklaus played with lofts that would be 5 or even 6 degrees weak today. He only hit is 2 iron about 200 yards unless he geared up and went for it. I believe the great matches between Palmer and Nicklaus saw them driving around 250 to 260 or less. It was only Snead who got up to 290 and he was this huge self title hillbilly and he preferred to go hunting or fishing to golf.

Well, what does this say about Tour versus Retail equipment?

It says, those who want to buy a swing can pay, pay, pay and never really be satisfied.

But... Having said all that -- there is a big difference in quality to me between Tour versus Retail.

My local pro told me that his privilege in shopping at a tour van is that he can test out 40 drivers all with the same specs and choose the best one of the lot. That can be important when mass produced clubs are only inspected within a range of tolerances. This is a little like Nicklaus chasing after the perfect set of clubs and not caring what the make or model was, just did the club work, the ball does not lie...

And the ability to have any club customized to your specs, well Ping made a fortune on mass producing that idea with its color codings.

But now we get to the really hairy issue -- are tour issued clubs with it?

IMHO -- it depends...

The up side is that you can often find prototypes on auction sites that if you take the chance on one and get lucky -- you might get a great value on a new product that now costs tons in its finally released form, example, the original Aldila NV shaft which came out as a prototype -- the early versions of this were really a find and were going for half or less of what Golfsmith wanted. But you had to know about it and do your homework and avoid the lookalikes.

Driver heads -- a mixed bag. Did you know that Long Driving Tour players practice with their favorite heads until the face flattens? They test this by passing the edge of a credit card over the face. When it is nearly flat they set that club aside for competition -- as that is when it will launch the longest drivers, that is, when it is so worn it is about to crack. What does that say about tour heads? Or new drivers in general? Better to try and wear out your old driver?

Yes, Taylor tp's are open faces. But, did you know that the stock TM's have 350 hosels which allow you to install 335 shafts with shims that can be asymmetric so the face opens up to 5 degrees from stock. So, which is more versatile a tp head with 1 degree open or a retail head that has the capacity of being shimmed open up to 5 degrees. And if you want a thinner face, well go the LDT route and practice with it tons, flatten it.

Wood shafts -- the aerospace world is responsible. What? Well, the triangle of golf manufacturers located around San Diego are well known for hiring a herd of out of work aerospace engineers, including design engineers who are putting out new products every year for every brand. And then is it no wonder that the next best thing is always around the corner.

In spite of this "gotta have it" market place, there are genuine innovations out there. The problem often is how good is it really if it can be mass produced?

Answer -- it depends... Aldilas NV shafts with 30 micro layers, technology straight from NASA, is one example of assembly line production that does work. Whereas, Ozik shafts that take 9 people 6 days of set up, does not lend itself to high production, and there the price is somewhat justified but certainly not the headline grabbing $1k shafts, the competitively prices ones that rival the $245 speeders or the $300 red/blue/white-boards, and so on.

Conclusion: you don't need tour issued shafts if the technology can be readily mass produced at high quality, high tolerance levels. You do need tour issued if the product is labor intensive and subject to poor quality at retail levels.

Irons -- can you mass produce the quality of Miura which only makes a very limited number of sets a day? Is that quality really needed? Well, if you don't care about feel and/or if you just bomb and gouge -- buy Callaways or something other GI club. If you really want to play old fashioned golf where you study course layouts and try and shape shots, then finding quality irons can be rewarding. So, then can you get the right quality from store bought? How much quality do you need?

I think here the lesson is best shown by the phenomena of Honma products. You can pay up to $50,000 for a set of irons, these have gold, platinum and even rubies in them; no kidding, on sale at Herods in London.

You can marvel at the 5 star boron ti shafts made by 70 year old masters that you paid a mere $10,000 for. But is the quality real? When does art take over function? When is it all so ridiculous?

Hmn, well, you won't expect this answer, but -- the actual answer IHMO is cultural. I understand that the most common purchase in Japan of 5 star irons is by business men as business gifts. The Japanese work is giri, which roughly means to repay an obligation. So, why not give the business man something he can really use and love? But you can't be cheap in the business world, your giri gift has to spell out the worth that the sender feels for the sendee, get it? Honma irons fill a social role in a complex business environment which relies on valued friendships and personal connections.

But at the same time Honma irons can be highly functional for the chosen few. But, their playability is questionable for good players. The best craftmanship can make a mediocre club perform to the best of its mediocre range. Honma irons are easy to hit, usually have very soft shafts and very strong lofts so it just appears that the player is doing well. Example, a Honma 5 iron can be 23 degrees, compare that to Nicklaus's 1967 VIP 5 iron of 31 degrees.

This all goes to show that craftsmanship whether it be Miura or sensei -- will not always be valuable unless it is truly purposeful.

So, a choice of tour van or retail in irons depends on what? IHMO whether the technology in question is susceptible to poor quality in mass production, and that's all.

If it is then go tour van, if not go retail. As simple as that.

Wedges: I understand that this is actually a science that matches individual courses and weather conditions to designs. Best example is diggers leading edges versus beveled; use diggers for hard dry courses, use beveled for wet courses. And grass types and rough height are other conditions that warrant different grinds and shapes. I believe you can avoid over priced tour van items here by following these rules:

1. if you don't open or close the face of your wedges you don't need special grinds or reliefs;

2. if you play only wet or only dry courses you don't need different types of leading edges, jut the one that suites your conditions;

3. if your home course has slow muni tupe greens, you don't need high spin grooves, but if you have supper fast US Open type greens that are cut every few days, then you may need to find high spin grooves or learn how to slide the face under the club more.

4. Lastly, if you have to play around with wedge weights and shapes, it's my understanding that this is done mainly by pros to find that one perfect set up for a given yardage that the pro routine lays up for. Example, some 40 something pros favor Ping becu sw at a perfect 100 yards for them. So, find your perfect 100 yard wedge or 70 yard wedge or the yardage you most often find yourself at when laying up or on approach. You probably do not need tour van wedges for that.

Okay, take your best shots, fellas...

[gocchin]

No shots here my friend, some good points... it's great how you can take the time to put all that together!! Like you said there are many different opinions on this topic. For me the bottom line is I try and choose what I like and what works for me. Personally the word "Tour" doesn't carry too much weight for me when it comes to equipment.

I do believe in quality and workmanship though and in JDM products that includes retail products. In the end does quality equal performance? Maybe. Does paying for quality equal feel which is important to many golfers. In my opinion and experience yes, to a certain extent. (No I will not pay for a 5 star Honma driver).

Will I visit a Tourstage Tour Van if I get the chance? Probably? I may even be tempted into buying a "tour" wedge but it probably won't do anything for my game... I'd just waste my money and collect it. (^_^) But I stick mostly with Japanese gear and the Tour Issue moniker is not a common for Japanese gear. You rarely see any tour issue JDM equipment even pop up on this forum.

It's all about being custom fit these days and tolerances as you say. The great thing is that many JDM brands allow custom shafts and club adjustments, even on retail clubs which is definitely a positive. I think they have higher tolerances and stick to all the best materials. At least my wallet hopes so. (^_^)

And actually your answer being "Cultural" above is actually pretty accurate. While the $10,000 purchase of honma irons is no longer as common as it used to be, the differences in cultures and lifestyles are evident in the golfing world. Everything from customer expectations, to quality, to specs, to price points, the thinking is different in Japan. Which is why the JDM golf market exists and why it is different from the rest of the world. (and why we have TSG)... ^^

[siteseer2]

Groundhog day...

[matt411]

Groundhog day...

[gocchin]

Groundhog day...

[idrive]

I'm glad my wife was home when I started reading this... she woke me up as I was slumped over the keyboard.

My thoughts are.. why don't you use spell check??

[Lowpro]

so do not buy into the hype and hit what works.. and buy / spend how much you want etc.. ex: you can get to the course in a toyota camery or a lexus. how do you want to get there and your personal beliefs and value you put on things- correct..

hey- great points and nice read.. the tinkering the tour equipment gets is or has done to it per reguest if just a fine tuning i see. what we can do to the mass made equipment is easy to do.. reshaft, grind work done, lie - lofts changed etc.. to make it more personal to my game.

i guess your main topic is value. and why we spend how much we do on things.. hype- advertising - who what pro's play it etc.. all lead the build up. what the pro's of years ago played is really flat out neat - and how they went on feel alone. with all the techno we have now it still leads back to that. enjoy. ken

[Phillip Alexander]

Geoff Ogilivy played Royal Melbourne with mates not long after he won the US Open. On that day, he used a persimmon driver and 3 wood and had the time of his life shaping shots with those clubs. Metal woods simply can't do this....at least to the same degree.

Bobby Jones also had a perfectly matched set except for his 8 iron which he disliked.

The game has certainly evolved as technology has come to the forefront.

An interesting observation I have made over the years is that "rogue" clubs in a tour pros bag tend to be Japanese. Norman's Maurman 3 wood, Nicklaus was carrying a Mizuno 3 wood last time I saw him, albeit he has his own club line etc etc

I think the process with tour clubs, is similar to in the old days trying to find an old McGregor persimmon driver. Half the fun is trying to find it in the first place, the other half is the way it feels and performs with the right shaft.

Technology has certain come a long way, however the "search / feel" thing has been going on for hundreds of years.

TSG is a partner in the search for that unique club / clubs that feel good and make the player feel good. Long may it prosper.

[gus]

Personally I have mixed feelings about this topic as I've had wonderful pieces of equipment in both segments. I will say this; if you are not fine tuned enough to not only know your game but properly fit equipment then spending the extra bucks on "tour issue" is truly a waste of money. However; if you invest in the good stuff and it works then all is well in my opinion. It's nice to find something "special" and unique such that it is. Another interesting outcome to consider is resale value. Because I've come accross very fair sources (it's true you really need to know the source) I've managed to break even on many purchased because the "tour issue" stigma tends to lend itself to a higher resale dollar (even for last years model) then stock retail offerings. Moral of the story; play what works for your game. If that's a 9.8* tour issue driver 2* open and 1* flat then do it but don't for a second believe that the overall quality of the product is somehow better because it's not.

Edited August 22, 2007 by BigBen

[tarheeldb]

Personally I have mixed feelings about this topic as I've had wonderful pieces of equipment in both segments. I will say this; if you are not fine tuned enough to not only know your game but properly fit equipment then spending the extra bucks on "tour issue" is truly a waste of money. However; if you invest in the good stuff and it works then all is well in my opinion. It's nice to find something "special" and unique such that it is. Another interesting outcome to consider is resale value. Because I've come accross very fair sources (it's true you really need to know the source) I've managed to break even on many purchased because the "tour issue" stigma tends to lend itself to a higher resale dollar (even for last years model) then stock retail offerings. Moral of the story; play what works for your game. If that's a 9.8* tour issue driver 2* open and 1* flat then do it but don't for a second believe that the overall quality of the product is somehow better because it's not.

Talk about getting creamed for that statment on one of the other unmentionable web sites. Sacreligious for even thinking tour isn't way better over there.

I personally can't tell about tour heads vs. retail, I will however go with the aftermarket shaft to my specs everytime.

[gus]

No doubt I wouldn't even bother with that one over there but its all true based on my experience.

[teespoon]

Excellent opening post and replies. This is certainly one of the best sites I visit.

Nicklaus and I are the same age. He is the better golfer by far. What we share is a deep respect for the game and enjoying quality equipment.

Thanks for the great thread!

teespoon

[golfbubba]

I enjoyed your observation about "flattened" driver faces. Do you harbor the slightest suspicion that maybe, certain, tour drivers are pre-"flattened"?

Sure, COR is COR, but high limit COR, all over the face VS only on the sweetspot might be helpful.

Thanks for the, well written, thesis!

bubba

[dorkman53]

There is little doubt in my mind that "tour" clubs are usually DIFFERENT than regular clubs, unless the seller is a complete snake oil salesman. However, a club that has been modified for a tour player may not be at all what works in my hands. Would you want to wear the prescription glasses of a celebrity? Why not? They worked fine for him or her?