Golf Club Design

[bogeydog]

I would think by now that given the computer design age as well as the length of time that had pasted, designs of high performing golf clubs would be similar. Take a company like Callaway or TM. They come out with so many different product lines each year, most with what appears to be slight design changes with major cosmetic changes. All in all I wonder how much difference there really is. I tend to think this is just marketing moves to sell and resell the same customer. I would think that there are only so many shapes, sizes, CGs, grooves, etc. that could be made in irons and that they have mostly all been tried. I laugh thinking about some of the tour items listed on the other website as being so special. Maybe they are limited in how many were made, but do you really think they are worth what people are paying? Seems like these were designs that didn't make it into the public. I doubt that these major companies would not released a high performing design and sacrifice an edge over their competitors.

[Phillip Alexander]

Tigers irons haven't changed much in 15 years...except for the stampings and what he gets paid to play them

Tour van driver head weights are generally heavier and a little squarer than retail. As to whether or not this provides significant improvement is subjective. That said I my 510 from the Japanese tour van (none of that USA tour van junk for me ).

The way I see it the real inovations in head design are for the hackers like me. My view has long been that Tiger would shoot even par with a stick of celery.

Shafts are the big thing. I believe these are still improving.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I would think by now that given the computer design age as well as the length of time that had pasted, designs of high performing golf clubs would be similar. Take a company like Callaway or TM. They come out with so many different product lines each year, most with what appears to be slight design changes with major cosmetic changes. All in all I wonder how much difference there really is. I tend to think this is just marketing moves to sell and resell the same customer. I would think that there are only so many shapes, sizes, CGs, grooves, etc. that could be made in irons and that they have mostly all been tried. I laugh thinking about some of the tour items listed on the other website as being so special. Maybe they are limited in how many were made, but do you really think they are worth what people are paying? Seems like these were designs that didn't make it into the public. I doubt that these major companies would not released a high performing design and sacrifice an edge over their competitors.

Great topic bogeydog, imo many of today's clubs are in fact new spin's on preexisting designs or technology.

Over the past 3-5 years I have seen leaps and bounds in golf club performance and i guess the question is has it hit a plateau? I don't think it has because only in last couple of years have the high M.O.I drivers have really come into contention against traditional design and 2nd, 3rd generation versions should have a higher MOI value than previous models as well as better esthetics.

When talking about Irons this is where things start to all seem the same, I gravitate to traditional older style forged heads, while brands who cater to the game improvement market are building some very large and akward looking tech packed clubs, when measuring numbers they are indeed easier to hit for sure due to this technology and design.

In the future it would be nice to see more woods made of forged beta ti and fairway woods built like mini drivers, overall i do feel drivers, fw's, hybrids, and irons will show enhanced performance every several years. They take a design or technology then improve it and over time its bound to get better, perhaps not as fast as we want it to but I think onward improvement will always be just over the horizon.

[ClubHoUno]

Interesting post Bogeydog

I think most of the new innovative design will be concentrated on the large game improvement market, where better and improved computer CAD design and bigger and larger R&D test centers will come up with better and more forgiving cavity designs in irons and even wedges and more MOI in drivers and eventually also in woods. Callaway is coming with its "Square_Way_Wood" next year, and more will follow. The hybrids will be even more forgiving within the Game Improvement market. So most of the new advanced high tech development will take place within the Game Improvement market, I think.

With that said I think you are right in your assumption, that within the players market, the R&D will have trouble finding new designs that will improve upon the older designs, because it is pretty limited what you can do to improve on muscle back irons, blade wedges and small players cavity back irons.

If you look at muscle back irons, Mizuno tried to use their "Cut Muscle" technology in their newest muscle back iron, Mp-67, but the Cut Muscle didn't really do much, because a muscle back is muscle back, and the target group for such an iron is low cappers and plus handicappers, who need to shape the ball and hit high and low shots and really do not that much forgiveness.

The same thing applies for wedges. You have a small blade like club for pitch shots and chip shots and there really isn't that much you can do with the design of the club. Therefore the trend right now is to look at grooves, bounce and especially grind options, which makes a wedge far more versatile, but not that much more forgiving. The grooves are being looked at by the USGA and R&A, so I think we will probably see more and more manufacturers stopping the groove hype and maybe even go back to V shaped grooves, especially if R&A and USGA decide to illegalize sharp Box U grooves. I think the trend next year will be new grind on wedges. So a lot of us hard core golf club HO's have already been fascinated by what a grind can do to a Lobwedge and a Sandwedge in terms of flop shots and small petite chip shots from different lies in the rough. This will start to come into the retail market in the next 1-2 years, I think. Callaway and Taylor Made, Mizuno, Fourteen, Brdigestone, Tourstage, Epon and more already have a special grinds on their wedges and more will follow this trend. What may end this grind trend will be the fact that people will soon discover that making a retail wedge with only one standard retail grind will limit the number of people, that will fancy this particular retail grind. Grind is a very personal thing, and one grind may work for one person, while another person will hate that grind - so grinds will still be something that will be made for the tour players in the tour van and custom made in custom wedges for the avid low capper amateur golfers.

However we do still do see some manufacturers trying to improve on the players cavity back clubs.

The very basic small designed classic style forged cavity back club heads will be hard to improve on. You have the split cavity design (Bridgestone J33.cn, Miura Cb-202, Miura Cb-1006), you have the curved split cavity (Epon AF-301), you have the notch back design (Callaway X-Forged, Tourstage X-Blade CB 2008) and you have the Cut muscle (Mizuno). Mizuno has in the new Mp-57 model even tried to make an iron with both the split cavity and the cut muscle design. Only time will tell if the Mp-57 design works and really improves on the forgiveness without sacrificing feel and playability. There are only so much you do with a forged carbon steel iron in terms of design, but they get better and better at improving on the design in forged players cavity back heads - I'm sure Endo will be one the companies that first will be able to make highly advanced club head design within forged carbon steel clubs - so I still see room for possible improvements in this particular area.

Cast cavity back clubs will continue to improve design wise - but again as you say, some on the new design might just be gimmicks to continue selling golf gear to the better players, that in reality need playability and feel rather than a whole lot of forgiveness in their irons. However the trend might be to release players iron sets from 5-PW and replace the 3-4 iron with hybrids. The tour players still use their 3 and 4 irons, but a growing number of pro players use an iron like hybrid as their 3 iron and a wood like hybrid/5 wood instead of the 2 iron. You also see more and more pro players play cavity back clubs and not muscle back clubs. This trend will spread to the juniors and amateur players.

The driver head volume is maxed out at 4600cc, so I think the trend will continue to circle around different design shapes - but as you say, there are only so much that can be done to improve on MOI and forgiveness. I think we could see the shaft manufacturers go into cooperation with the club head designers to improve on the overall playability and forgiveness of the drivers.

As I say, this is a very interesting subject....hope several others will chime in and participate in the debate

[NiftyNiblick]

My lament is that the more complicated clubs get from a technology perspective, the less you can do to alter the static specifications.

The beauty of persimmon or laminated maple woods was that a wood lathe would make you any spec you wanted in terms of loft/lie/face angle combo.

The OEMs tend to go more upright and closed as the lofts go up with titanium, and that doesn't work universally.

Also, I love the design and materials of many J-Spec drivers and fairways, but the upright lie angles are obviously intended for giant sumo wrestlers. It's the old shaft droop theory. My mind can't believe it, so my body can't hit it.

[livetoplay]

I think the biggest advancements in club design in the upcoming years won't be the heads at all. It will be shafts and the metal and materials used to construct the golf head. The design of the club head is pretty maxed out the OEM's understand that, just look at what is being put out these days, just small tweaks to their current line. I mean look at the Callaway shovel the x-18 looks the same as the new x-22 just a slightly bigger notch and a new badge. MOI increase between models = you can't tell the difference and I bet the ball can't as well. Maybe your poor shot will only fly offline a half inch between models.

Shafts are the next frontier in club performance and I am taking about both metal and graphite especially graphite. But, even steel shafts are better than they were 5 years ago, the new KB Tour is far superior to the DSG and feels better than the project X. Look for the next generation of steel shafts to be as light as graphite shafts sub 90 grams. Graphite shafts are the future designers haven't come close to perfecting them, the Voodoo is better than the By You and the NV. The different construction possibilities with graphite shafts make graphite the future once the sub 90 gram steel shafts hit the market. I am willing to bet that in the near future (sorry don't have a crystal ball) most pro's on the PGA tour will play graphite shafts why? Because they will be able to get a shaft that feels exactly like the want it at the weight they want it and it will perform exactly as they want it too. Look for the pro's to be using a trackman device to dial in their iron shafts like they do now with the driver, spin launch etc. I think it will be scary they distance they will achieve when they switch to graphite, just look at the driver distances now versus the old school steel shafts (yes titanium faces and ball have a major impact but less than you think).

Also look to new metals and materials to make a current design much better, especially in the game improvement segment. It would not surprise me if in less than 5 years someone develops a cast club using a new metal alloy that dare I say it will make the forged club you hit today feel harsh especially compared to off center hits. Some genius is going to build it lighter and cheaper and stronger. Sounds silly but one day I willing to bet there will be a max cor restriction on irons. If I were to build a club today I would build a cast hollow body iron and fill it will some kind of material that makes it feel better than forged and makes the face hot and not just when you hit the sweet spot.

Well that is my rant. If I am right in the future you can say you read it here first.

P.S. If you build a hollow iron with a material inserted into the body I will sue you lol.

[Phillip Alexander]

If the shaft and ball are good enough...

.... dare I say it....

....a return to persimmon may happen

If you doubt what I say, please be advised Tiger plays persimmon in off season practice.

Of course it will never be in his bag during the season, Phil Nike pays too much to let that happen.

...food for thought.

[NiftyNiblick]

I think it would be a great idea for a clubmaker to invest some development in manufacturing techniques.

The first high volume company that can produce a nice looking club with fitting options for everybody--lie, face angle, loft, etc.--will have a big step up on its competitors.

It's one thing to find the options that you want, but it's quite another to find them in the specific club that you'd like.

I have complete faith that this is on the horizon somewhere. The big question is whether or not it comes in time for us.