The Trend of "too stiff"

[BrettSmith]

....

One of the primary things I see in my golf performance consulting is that there is a direct correspondence between a shaft that is too stiff and several primary swing flaws. When the shaft is varying degrees of too stiff, what happens with many people is that they look to trigger it earlier and harder in an effort to make it work.... ie at the top (or in the transition stage). Instead of downshifting and getting the whip to spring from the hip, many people tug at it from the top which gets the golfer into 3 faulty sets for starters:

1. Top-Down vs. Ground-Up--the downshift never happens properly from the ground-up, so it happens from the top down- the golfer turns to the primarily dominant right hand, side and shoulder in an effort to generate more power earlier to load the shaft... trying to make it work. I say top-down, but..lol... the legs and hips never really are allowed to be summoned because the golfer is too busy trying to muscle up from the top- so what really happens is that you get slapped on both cheeks> loss of transitional load and effective storing and loss of your primary power sources- legs and hips... OUCH.

2. Steep and Across. When we start from the top-down, the golfer is inevitably steep and sharp with approach angles instead of rotary level. This encourages glancing strikes and makes the longer clubs really a challenge because the golfer is either across the line open or on top of it and shut. It's also a virtual guarantee that the head and spine are ahead of the ball even before impact- which leads us to the last hope ... the grab bag brought about by looking for "hand magic" to save you.

3. Face manipulation. Depending on skill level and what the unique "micro-climate" is for the golfer, many people try to roll the face or hands in an attempt to square-up through impact and generate more speed. This just creates more angles with the clubface.

HOW I GET PEOPLE TO TURN THE TABLES:

The first thing I do here-especially with the driver is get a surrogate stick in their hands. I'm talking about the whippiest shaft I can find- typically the Ladies or Senior Demo collecting dust in your proshop. Given even a fairly functional mechanical base, ( even up to 20 hcp) the golfer will almost immediately find that too much effort and in particular- effort at the wrong time provides diminishing returns. So what happens becomes a very encourage trend- the player has to "wait" for the shaft to work- WHAT A CONCEPT!

When the golfer has to wait for the shaft several positive dynamics can start working:

a) the golfer will stay behind it

b) the golfer will automatically take more time with storing in transition and generate more effective loading technique

c) the golfer will feel the shaft work and start automatically start internally calibrating to harmonize greater use of centrifugal force- the inside will be able to work the outside instead of the previous vice-versa.

d) the golfer will begin to realize that when less is more- he or she can wield more effectively in BALANCE and start effectively ruling their respective rotational realm.

Three weeks ago I started with a client who fit this fault profile. 12 handicap and Stock Stiff in the driver. I did implement some mechanical upgrades in the short to mid iron game, but we saved the long game for last. From a consistently closed and on top of it fault set, my client was able to generate up to 90 mph of clubhead speed, but it was steep and across- and included lots of flash speed with the hands- so consistency was a major issue.

By working the surrogate stick ( the temporary training club- in this case a stock callway ladies 11 deg), he was forced to REALLY wait for it and improve his rotational choreography. 3 Things happend very quickly:

1. Better Balance

2. Sharp and steep angles were replaced with more rounded and shallowed because the body was encouraged to take more time during the loading and unloading.

3. Rotational Release Rates started snapping more effectively from the more braced, stacked and powerful physical sets.

The idea here is that you shouldn't need your BEST move to be effective. The shafts need to work HARDER FOR YOU. We have since transitioned my client from a 10.5 70 gram stock stiff into a 12 deg and 55 gram soft regular with a 5degrees of torque to work the head for him and a higher kick point to keep it from ballooning. I'll be posting the numbers as we break out the launch monitor this week, but I'll say this- we're already 15 yards consistenly longer just from more effective launch angle patterns that are more sustained down the line with 75% less dispersion.

Now we are really able to augment performance training to meet his needs because he is more consistently in the right sets. So what's really cool is that as these sets gel a little bit, and we establish some fluency- we can start shopping for a TSG hot-rod ... and really take it to the next level.

An amazing transformation and a cutting edge way for many of the golfers out there to start or re-visit getting into the right sets and slots when things get a bit "ayrie mon"... as my favorite caddie used to say who was from Jamaica.

Let me know if I can answer any questions or help!

Brett

[gocchin]

B I agree with you all the way! People always say JDM shafts are soft to flex... fact is many times people only perceive that soft flex while what manufacturers are creating is a shaft with feel and kick. You also bring up several points that bring certain things to light... there is NO miracle shaft... too many times people think a shaft will change everything but in the end the shaft is only as good as the person swinging it. When I do shaft recommendations, many times depending on the player's style, I sometimes recommend something softer... that will feel smooth and kick well IF the player waits for it as you say! I think many members here have seen it work for them, the softer shaft, as I've seen users post saying they are able to drive the ball better if they all slow it down and swing naturally with better balance and control...

[Bombardier Smith]

Brett i really like how you explain things.easy to understand yet getting the key points across.

I once tryed a V2 stiff shaft in my 905t titleist and my game fell to pieces.To me that shaft was way to stiff "boardy"

with no feel,i could,nt of found the clubhead with a radar

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Great Post Brett!

Just as Bomba man said you explain things in a fun and entertaining read. I totally agree that most people use shafts far stiffer than needed.

This is most common in the states where we have all seen guys swinging out of their shoes getting Big Man club head speed but mediocre distances and dispersion.

Your suggestion about hitting extreme soft flexes and working up the stiffness ladder truly does ingrain the slowing it down naturally feel and letting the whip do the talking.

Its the least we can do I mean we spend all this money on golf gear how about we let the gear work for us instead of attacking the ball with brute force.

Its like many of the JLPGA gal's low head speed yet amazing tempo and technique give them big distance.

[gocchin]

Its like many of the JLPGA gal's low head speed yet amazing tempo and technique give them big distance.

You're right on the money there C.... It always amazed me looking at the swing speeds of JLPGA girls, many who swing between 85-90mph yet can drive the ball 240-250 yards total on average.

[Richmond Golfer]

The key to soft shafts is really in squaring the head at impact for slower swingers, not to gain clubhead speed. The problem is twofold. First, to gain distance one much swing in "such a manner" as to capture the kick of a softer shaft. The more load you put on the shaft, the more you outswing the kick and end up with nothing more than an open or closed clubhead. Second, if you do square the cluhead at impact, the softer shaft transmits less energy and soaks up the hit. This is why shafts which are too soft have a very good feel at impact but the shots go high and have no punch because the shaft has no spine. Harshness is nothing more that vibration of a mis**t not dampened be a soft shaft. To me the key is to work on the correct tempo with a correctly fitted shaft, rather than soften the flex to slow the swing down. A slow swing, correctly applied, hits very hard and needs as stiffer shaft to trnasmit that power with a squre clubhead.

[BrettSmith]

Exactly! Man, I see the dysfunction out here in the trenches every day. I don't want to know what your "swing speed" is-- that being your maxx out or flash speed with the hands-- I want to know what your EFFECTIVE SWING SPEED is. Flush, shallow, down-the-line and absolute "turn-key"... repeatable center-faced contact that is consistently predictable. Basically, somebody can be entirely capable of 100 mph move or more, but they should be looking at moving

at more of the 80-85 range as a stock move and making the shaft work harder. Once that starts happening, the right movements start fostering- that we mentioned earlier....the golfer can get a true feel of better working their inner rotational mass and how it affects a more flexible stick on the outside. It's not all about speed- centered mass is huge! JB Holmes is 20 past Tiger and his swing speed is 6-10mph slower-- he has more mass behind it. The girls have gotten so GOOOOD at harnessing this centered inner torque and springing the shaft on the outside... that's why you hardly ever see them over-exerting-- man they got that whip doing all the work.

"Slowing down" is a step in the right direction, but let me add one more notch of clarity that really may help. My last 6 clients from 20 handicap down to 5 came to realize that initially their respective effective speed had to be throttled down. So initially, yes in effect- first it's about slowing down to speed up.... and depending on how out of position the golfer consistently is, affects how much softer in a shaft we need to go. Better technique of course helps, but the yield is not as evident if the shaft isn't working hard enough. Now here's the key>> next it's about turning slowing down into GEARING DOWN-- think of a sports car. Gearing down creates inside torque. So gearing down with a springy outside (shaft) allows us to harness ever increasing traction properly.....from the ground-up core- or inside- out This allows the outside to work incrementally harder IF it is indeed being sprung-- if not, the golfer starts "looking for love in all the wrong places" as the song goes.

What's really cool here is that a softer shaft can help everybody- even if it's a training club. The higher handicapper just has to work slower with stability and just "let" the shaft work- the better player can start integrating more ground-up rotary torque-- slinging it more from the hip- think of this>>

an orange stuck to a nail coming out the center of the driver face. We want the orange to stay attached to the nail without sliding off, until the player slings it down the intended target line. When we create some of that sense that we must "keep it"... or the keeping of the orange on the nail longer in the forward swing, until we sling it- that's what the softer shaft starts automatically doing for people. What happens with most golfers is that the orange has slid or has been zinged off prematurely.... and last time I checked- premature isn't desireable on any level.

Brett

[Richmond Golfer]

The question of shaft flex has always intrigued me. Traditional golf teaching and fitting has recommended softer versus stiff shafts for most everyone and to err on the soft side if between flexes to increase distance.

The flex of the shaft has nothing to do with squaring the head up at impact. If we close our hands out in front of us and turn our shoulders we see it is the squared shoulders at impact that square the hands. If we turn slowly with a club held in front of us if the hands stay in front of the chest the rotation of the chest keeps the face square to the arc of the swing no matter what flex shaft we use due to the basic physical relationship of the hands to the chest and that connection.

Distance and power come from a squared clubface at impact that is accelerating through the ball.

So what is the flex of the shaft all about. Simply this. As swingspeed increases, the head of the club, as the fastest moving part tends to bend forward causing high left or right shots. The stiffer shaft holds the head square at impact, nothing more. If your swing squares the head at impact, you can swing a stiff shaft, Softer shafts do the opposite. Players who do not have good swing mechanics will all tend to engage in motions that tend to. open the club face at impact and decelerate the club head speed. To offset this, a softer shaft will tend to bend forward at slower speeds and close the face towards square at impact.

So whats the rub here. Clearly, no player can play well with a shaft that is too soft or too stiff for their swing. But, what about the in between flex group and those who can square the face at impact. I believe for the most these folks benefit from a slightly STIFFER shaft. Why, because if we square the face at impact, the result of a soft shaft is to open or close the face at impact even if we make a good swing. Thus, with a soft to flex shaft, for our swing, we now need to manipulate the club with small muscles to square the club head and this robs of good tempo and swingspeed. With a club that is firm to feel for us, we now can work on a compact efficient swing which squares the face at impact and is repeatable from using only the larger core muscles.

The swing faults Brett mentioned are all the result of poor setup, poor takeaway, imcomplete shoulder turn, lack of a good pivot and poor weight transfer which destroy the golfer's connection to the ground. This is spelled well vividly in Jack Nicklaus's book "Golf my way" and Bobby Jones's book, and countless others. Once the swing becomes one dynamic building block upon another the poor mechanics at the top improve. No shaft flex can affect your setup, takeaway and turn. Without, a dynamic windup to the top, the correct forward move is impossible as the mind can only relate to the top of the body for help to bring the club down. Slowing the yank improves the result somewhat but still that not a good golf swing make.

[Henry]

Changing the topic slightly, my question is if one has a flex that is too soft and as the result, hitting the ball too high, is that corrected by getting a stiffer flex or is it corrected by getting a higher kickpoint on the shaft??

[BrettSmith]

Changing the topic slightly, my question is if one has a flex that is too soft and as the result, hitting the ball too high, is that corrected by getting a stiffer flex or is it corrected by getting a higher kickpoint on the shaft??

hey that's OK!... got a few things to respond to there with Richmond, but it can keep.

We want to find distance through the softness first and then temper in the other flavors to meet your needs. As the TGS gurus here can tell you, softness can first be found in flex but also through torque and kick point adjustments. There are several things to look at with your overall dynamic though:

1. Is the shaft low, low-mid or mid kick?

2. What is the torque?

3. Have you had the integrity of the shaft scoped out?... checked for cpm's or frequency.

4. What is the loft of the driver? how far do you hit? how far do you hit your 3wd?...

5. Tell me about your ball flight in terms of trajectory and curvature.

6. Also, need to know how well and how far you hit 7i and 4i- also trajectory and curvature.

7. What is your handicap?

You're absolutely right about the kick point being a possibility, but there are several pieces to the process. One thing that many people don't realize is that high ball flight is also crazy influenced by approach angles, so looking to these questions to help better answer yours!

Brett

[BrettSmith]

The question of shaft flex has always intrigued me. Traditional golf teaching and fitting has recommended softer versus stiff shafts for most everyone and to err on the soft side if between flexes to increase distance.

The flex of the shaft has nothing to do with squaring the head up at impact. If we close our hands out in front of us and turn our shoulders we see it is the squared shoulders at impact that square the hands. If we turn slowly with a club held in front of us if the hands stay in front of the chest the rotation of the chest keeps the face square to the arc of the swing no matter what flex shaft we use due to the basic physical relationship of the hands to the chest and that connection.

Distance and power come from a squared clubface at impact that is accelerating through the ball.

So what is the flex of the shaft all about. Simply this. As swingspeed increases, the head of the club, as the fastest moving part tends to bend forward causing high left or right shots. The stiffer shaft holds the head square at impact, nothing more. If your swing squares the head at impact, you can swing a stiff shaft, Softer shafts do the opposite. Players who do not have good swing mechanics will all tend to engage in motions that tend to. open the club face at impact and decelerate the club head speed. To offset this, a softer shaft will tend to bend forward at slower speeds and close the face towards square at impact.

So whats the rub here. Clearly, no player can play well with a shaft that is too soft or too stiff for their swing. But, what about the in between flex group and those who can square the face at impact. I believe for the most these folks benefit from a slightly STIFFER shaft. Why, because if we square the face at impact, the result of a soft shaft is to open or close the face at impact even if we make a good swing. Thus, with a soft to flex shaft, for our swing, we now need to manipulate the club with small muscles to square the club head and this robs of good tempo and swingspeed. With a club that is firm to feel for us, we now can work on a compact efficient swing which squares the face at impact and is repeatable from using only the larger core muscles.

The swing faults Brett mentioned are all the result of poor setup, poor takeaway, imcomplete shoulder turn, lack of a good pivot and poor weight transfer which destroy the golfer's connection to the ground. This is spelled well vividly in Jack Nicklaus's book "Golf my way" and Bobby Jones's book, and countless others. Once the swing becomes one dynamic building block upon another the poor mechanics at the top improve. No shaft flex can affect your setup, takeaway and turn. Without, a dynamic windup to the top, the correct forward move is impossible as the mind can only relate to the top of the body for help to bring the club down. Slowing the yank improves the result somewhat but still that not a good golf swing make.

[Duffer19]

As a mid handicap player (senior division please) and definitely not an expert in swing and/or shaft dynamics, I can attest somewhat to what Richmond Golfer was referring to swing and getting better result with a slightly stiffer shaft. This is contrary to most conventional wisdom in golf but it seems to work for me. I had a driver built in Japan last year with a custom shaft in SR flex which I demo'ed with a LM. Normally a JDM SR flex would be relatively soft especially in the mid high 50 g range but this particular one turns out to be 252 cpm at 45.5". Of course, I did not find out the cpm until the club was built and it was really too late then. Normally my comfort range is 230 to 240 cpm at the comparable length.

Somehow this combo works magic and I have been to places with this driver that I have not been before. Perhaps its the shaft or perhaps its the 9* loft but the ball would roll for 20 to 30 yards upon landing. One drawback with this (slightly) stiffer a shaft is one cannot get lazy with the swing and must really work on timing. An 'off swing' would result in a shorter than normal drive.

Perhaps this is the wrong approach to club fitting but as a senior player, I am just happy to be able to drive it at reasonable distance and have a chance to hit the green in regulation with clubs other than a driver off the fairway.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Duffer19

[BrettSmith]

The key to soft shafts is really in squaring the head at impact for slower swingers, not to gain clubhead speed. The problem is twofold. First, to gain distance one much swing in "such a manner" as to capture the kick of a softer shaft. The more load you put on the shaft, the more you outswing the kick and end up with nothing more than an open or closed clubhead. Second, if you do square the cluhead at impact, the softer shaft transmits less energy and soaks up the hit. This is why shafts which are too soft have a very good feel at impact but the shots go high and have no punch because the shaft has no spine. Harshness is nothing more that vibration of a mis**t not dampened be a soft shaft. To me the key is to work on the correct tempo with a correctly fitted shaft, rather than soften the flex to slow the swing down. A slow swing, correctly applied, hits very hard and needs as stiffer shaft to trnasmit that power with a squre clubhead.

Dear Richmond Esquire,

I must respectfully disagree with you in many areas.

First, the whole idea here is exactly as you said there- "capture the kick". Training with a soft shaft brings the golfer back in touch with harnessing centrifugal force. The inside moves the outside exponentially faster. Most people have the outside moving slower than the inside.

Secondly, in regards your assesments: "the more load you put on a shaft, the more you outswing the kick and end up with nothing more than an open or closed clubhead" and "shafts that are too soft have very good feel at impact but the shots go high and have no punch because the shaft has no spine"-- I do understand where you are coming from.

However those results are faults within your sequential applications of motion.

No pun intended couselor but I defer to exhibit A: THE MATZIE E-Z-SWINGER Whippy. If what you are speaking of would be true, than why is it that I can work the WHIPPIEST SHAFT EVER(!) in the 5iron, 5 wood or driver almost just as far as my normal equipment. I'll tell you why. It's about understand exactly what kind of motion you are harnessing and making it relative to the target. The bottom line is that we must continually ingrain surrendering the club and it's movement- the deployment of the centrifual must come first. Then we are able to start stacking with accelerants- ground-up torque, coil and re-coil, etc.

I've worked this modus operandi with TOUR Professionals and high handicappers alike. We all get interrupted flow- the first key is how quickly can it be restored. The second key is being real with the equipment-- is it helping or hurting- and let me tell you, in most cases it's hurting. I'm not saying you in particular need a soft shaft, but I will ask you how repeatable your motion is-- is it a turn-key operation? In the immortal words of Mr. Hogan, "Does it hold-up under pressure?" How your equipment correlates wtih your fundamental concept is everything. The beautiful thing here is that you have a portal to the some of the finest tech minds around here at TSG and the crazy abiliity to explore ways to make the equipment work harder for you. Since your handicap is an 11, these are possible considerations.

In closing, there is no "slow swing"- there is only swing. What you are attempting to referring to is that the inner mass working in a more harnessed fashion and staying out of the way- "surrendering the outside". As mentiioned above by the TSG Maestro- "brute force" is a killer. Ernest Jones outlines that exact quote brilliantly in "Swing the Clubhead". What I speak of embodies the whole concept of "swing easy and hit hard".

Respectfully,

bSmith

[BrettSmith]

As a mid handicap player (senior division please) and definitely not an expert in swing and/or shaft dynamics, I can attest somewhat to what Richmond Golfer was referring to swing and getting better result with a slightly stiffer shaft. This is contrary to most conventional wisdom in golf but it seems to work for me. I had a driver built in Japan last year with a custom shaft in SR flex which I demo'ed with a LM. Normally a JDM SR flex would be relatively soft especially in the mid high 50 g range but this particular one turns out to be 252 cpm at 45.5". Of course, I did not find out the cpm until the club was built and it was really too late then. Normally my comfort range is 230 to 240 cpm at the comparable length.

Somehow this combo works magic and I have been to places with this driver that I have not been before. Perhaps its the shaft or perhaps its the 9* loft but the ball would roll for 20 to 30 yards upon landing. One drawback with this (slightly) stiffer a shaft is one cannot get lazy with the swing and must really work on timing. An 'off swing' would result in a shorter than normal drive.

Perhaps this is the wrong approach to club fitting but as a senior player, I am just happy to be able to drive it at reasonable distance and have a chance to hit the green in regulation with clubs other than a driver off the fairway.

hey there-

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. the most important thing is results. There are many considerations with fitting the individual needs-- the bottomline is performance. As you mentioned there, when you DO GO TIGHTER IN THAT SHAFT-- YOU ARE COMMITTED to meeting the need of the stick. If you're happy with your golfing product, that's all that counts.

My job is to help people chase the outer limits, so when I hear you say "reasonable distance", I can't help but think more can be done for you.

bSmith

[Blader-X]

I must say, I do consider myself a student of the swing. As I've gone along in my golfing evolution I've become fascinated by differing opinions and exploring different options to come up with better results. I really enjoy all this talk about swing and equipment. Keep it up!

[BrettSmith]

I must say, I do consider myself a student of the swing. As I've gone along in my golfing evolution I've become fascinated by differing opinions and exploring different options to come up with better results. I really enjoy all this talk about swing and equipment. Keep it up!

Blade,

Pick up one of those whippys- it's an absolute trip! Great practice for harmonizing transtional torque displacment. Golf Around the World has them. Also a pretty cool book you can score about the purity of the swing motion is Ernest Jones "Swing the Clubhead". A new school spin off that that's also super is someone I spent time with that really is sharp- DEAN REINMUTH. He molded PHIL's game as a junior and I learned a TON from him. His book "Tension Free" is killer and easy to read. He has some insights that will intrigue you. If you call him, he'll sign it for you-- please tell him I said hello if you do so.

bSmith, part time book pimp

[jacksonlui]

so how does one know if the shaft is too sort or too stiff?

how do we recognize them by shot patterns or ball flight?

any good drills you'd suggest for a whippy tempomaster?

thanks

Jack

[Richmond Golfer]

The best "whippy" swing trainer is a plain rope. Use a rope which has some heft to it and hangs straight down. Swing the rope slowly and set it on your back and then snap it at the impact point of where the ball would be. Some people are so good, they can actually hit a decent golf ball with a plain ordinary rope straight and far. The beauty of a rope is everything must stay back and in sync (and the transition slow and smooth) to swing the rope. As you you snap the rope more powerfully at the bottom, you are using true centrifugal force.

So many things can cause shot patterns, it is difficult to say, without seeing, that shaft flex is your problem. Shaft flex will feel too stiff or too soft for you and you will come to know it, if your swing has some degree of consistency to it. Flex is a fitting issue and going to a range with several different flexes will make the decision easier based upon feel and ball flight.