An Overdue Idea

[NiftyNiblick]

Let's be honest, this is the only forum on the entire website that gets any action. The others seem to have the same most recent post for days if not longer.

So to make this the appropriate forum for this thread, I am suggesting this idea to the ultra high end Japanese manufacturere as well!

This is what I'd LOVE to see an OEM do, because if it were successful, it would be copied by others.

If Ari over at Scratch is watching, here’s a way to truly replace the late, great Kenneth Smith Company as America’s premier custom clubmaker.

Offer your player’s iron in two series:

LIMITED EDITION CLASSIC LOFTS

..1_______18°

..2_______21°

..3_______24°

..4_______27°

..5_______30°

..6_______34°

..7_______38°

..8_______42°

..9_______46°

PW______52°

MODERN PRO LOFTS

..2_______19°

..3_______22°

..4_______25°

..5_______28°

..6_______32°

..7_______36°

..8_______40°

..9_______44°

PW______48°

Offer your game improvement iron in two series:

MODERN RECREATIONAL LOFTS

..5_______27°

..6_______30°

..7_______33°

..8_______37°

..9_______41°

PW______45°

GW___ __50°

WIDE GAP LOFTS

..5_______25°

..6_______30°

..7_______35°

..8_______40°

..9_______45°

PW______50°

It seems like a little thing, but it would make set configuration easier and more precise for a lot of discriminating equipment fanatic-players. Merely bending lofts affects the sole configurations too much.

[Goodsie]

Let's be honest, this is the only forum on the entire website that gets any action. The others seem to have the same most recent post for days if not longer.

So to make this the appropriate forum for this thread, I am suggesting this idea to the ultra high end Japanese manufacturere as well!

This is what I'd LOVE to see an OEM do, because if it were successful, it would be copied by others.

If Ari over at Scratch is watching, here’s a way to truly replace the late, great Kenneth Smith Company as America’s premier custom clubmaker.

Offer your player’s iron in two series:

LIMITED EDITION CLASSIC LOFTS

..1_______18°

..2_______21°

..3_______24°

..4_______27°

..5_______30°

..6_______34°

..7_______38°

..8_______42°

..9_______46°

PW______52°

MODERN PRO LOFTS

..2_______19°

..3_______22°

..4_______25°

..5_______28°

..6_______32°

..7_______36°

..8_______40°

..9_______44°

PW______48°

Offer your game improvement iron in two series:

MODERN RECREATIONAL LOFTS

..5_______27°

..6_______30°

..7_______33°

..8_______37°

..9_______41°

PW______45°

GW___ __50°

WIDE GAP LOFTS

..5_______25°

..6_______30°

..7_______35°

..8_______40°

..9_______45°

PW______50°

It seems like a little thing, but it would make set configuration easier and more precise for a lot of discriminating equipment fanatic-players. Merely bending lofts affects the sole configurations too much.

Interesting idea, however; asking an OEM to forge two heads of each club offered in each category to meet your suggested lofts would raise costs out of sight. No OEM would be interested in trying to peg stocking levels and draw down levels on their inventory. Each OEM is desperately trying to hold costs down as it is. Further, they aren't overjoyed right now with special requests either or we would have 2*flat FW's to chose from.

[NiftyNiblick]

What you say is true, Goodsie, but if a high end / low volume custom order company like Scratch, whom I'd like to see become the new Kenneth Smith, has success with the idea, then the component companies will try it, and if it flies for them, the major OEMs will just about have to do it.

The argument for the classic lofts in a player's iron is that modern lofts destroy long iron play for the players who excel at it. If you have to add wedges at the bottom of the set just to get past fifty degrees, your top of the set options are limited. Big hitters have more fairway distances to cover up above their five iron. The typical player may realistically have as few as two fairway shots left after the five iron, a fairway wood and a hybrid, so four wedges is completely do-able for him.

The argument for wide loft increments for the aspiring player is twofold. First, it gives him a meaningful distance gap between clubs.

Second, and less obvious, is that it makes room for utility clubs. High handicappers LOVE utility clubs, be they chippers, dedicated sand irons, bump and run irons, driving irons, Ginty type recovery woods--you name it. If you play nine holes a week in an after work league and then, when you can, once on the weekend, you're not getting blisters banging balls on the practice tee. You're tempted to buy some shots instead, and as you're no threat to ruin the Tiger's comeback, as you're just trying to maximize your fun, it's not really a threat to the integrity of the game.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Thanks Nifty,

It would be a great thing if brands did just that but as Goodsie says it sure would cost a lot of mulla to do. I think for the most part people are used to the new semi standard of lofts, It has been evolving over the last 6-10 years. Many of todays blades in the 47-48 PW range can be bent and any effect of the bend in regards to bounce is minimal and with the level of quality of JDM clubs and I assume your fitting L/L/L/SW/Grip/etc.. trust me you really should be totally satisfied.

[K2_2]

This is what I'd LOVE to see an OEM do, because if it were successful, it would be copied by others.

If Ari over at Scratch is watching, here’s a way to truly replace the late, great Kenneth Smith Company as America’s premier custom clubmaker.

Ah Kenneth Smith - I really wish they could have found a way to fit their high quality approach into a modern market driven equipment game. Hopefully their Japanese counterparts like Gold's Factory will continue on. Speaking of low volume Japanese producers, what happened to MOZ?

While some traditionaly lofted clubs would be nice, the cost of producing two sets would be high, while weakening the loft 1 or even 2 degrees doesn't seem to have too big of an impact with most grinds. I don't know if the same holds true for weakening lofts though.

[gocchin]

One good example of the raised costs is Vega's Zestaim which does exactly as you suggested. Forged by Kyoei it has two sets available and the difference is 4* in loft. However they pretty much priced themselves out as buyers say they won't pay more just because there are two lofts available.

[Duffer19]

Anyone interested in quite a few (at least 10) Kenneth Smith Persimmon woods of various lofts? Just clean out my parents attic and threw away about 7 bags of old clubs but kept the KS and Honma 'wood' woods for sentimental reason. If you have money to burnor or your name is Gates, you should go invest in a golf start up company or something like KS. Golf is just a game and you can use the KS but t does not mean you handicap would go down significantly.

[NiftyNiblick]

Thanks for the replies, guys. My idea is impractical or somebody other than Vega would have already done it, I suppose. Well, I’ve discovered that the 5° increment thing has been done on a regular production club by Mizuno in their Tava and now Sora women’s irons, but they begin with a 30° six iron. Maybe a similar line for seniors?

One last look and then I’ll let the thread die a peaceful death. These would be my complete specs for a senior iron set:

_____________loft__ length___ lie____swingwgt___bounce

Long Iron*____20°__ 39.125"___59°___D0________1°

5-iron________25°__ 38.625"___60°___D0________2°

6-iron________30°__ 38.000"___61°___D0________3°

7-iron________35°__ 37.375"___61.5°___D0_______4°

8-iron________40°__ 36.750"___62°___D0________5°

9-iron________45°__ 36.125"___62.5°___D0_______6°

Pitching Wedge 50°__ 35.500"___63°___D1_________7°

Gap Wedge *__55°__ 35.500"___63°___D3_________8°

Lob Wedge *__ 60° __35.500"___63°___D3_________4°

* optional

Edited December 27, 2008 by NiftyNiblick

[xxio]

Would it be easier to find a set with the lofts you like?

If none find ones that specific bounce/sole grinds that would suit the lofts you would want them bent to?

[NiftyNiblick]

Check this out, xxio.

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/proshop/p2121/...oduct_info.html

These are specs for the Honma iron. If you make them about 3/4" longer and a half degree flatter. totally do-able, you've got 1950s-1960s specs down cold. The only problem is the stamping, which would be two full numbers too high on everything.

Honma wouldn't have to change a thing to have a classic lofts set except the STAMPINGS.

Can you believe that?

If they did custom stamping, the whole classic lofts issue is settled.

The five degree increment thing is also already in place with Mizuno's ladies' irons. I like the old Tava more thanthe current Sora for a conversion to men's clubs, but the principle is also already in place there.

I guess if you resourceful enough, you can find something close to what you want.

[Richmond Golfer]

At 21 degrees and probably 38.75 or 39 inches, the two iron was very hittable and indeed a valuable part of a players set. Loft drop and length creep destroyed the two iron and really the 3 iron also.

[Phillip Alexander]

Check this out, xxio.

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/proshop/p2121/...oduct_info.html

These are specs for the Honma iron. If you make them about 3/4" longer and a half degree flatter. totally do-able, you've got 1950s-1960s specs down cold. The only problem is the stamping, which would be two full numbers too high on everything.

Honma wouldn't have to change a thing to have a classic lofts set except the STAMPINGS.

Can you believe that?

If they did custom stamping, the whole classic lofts issue is settled.

The five degree increment thing is also already in place with Mizuno's ladies' irons. I like the old Tava more thanthe current Sora for a conversion to men's clubs, but the principle is also already in place there.

I guess if you resourceful enough, you can find something close to what you want.

Well NiftyNiblick, this has been my hobby horse for a couple of years now.

I had an old set of Wilson Staffs when I was growing up as a kid. The PW was 52* and I carried 1 - SW. Each iron had a purpose and a distance.

The marketing (and that's all it is) that has done away with classic lofts is simply rubbish.

Let's stick to our ideals.....good on ya man.

[xxio]

Then it s all a matter of the number on the bottom then? I have never minded the numebr, just the yardages I get with each club

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Then it s all a matter of the number on the bottom then? I have never minded the numebr, just the yardages I get with each club

I agree, just use a different club.

[Richmond Golfer]

Well NiftyNiblick, this has been my hobby horse for a couple of years now.

I had an old set of Wilson Staffs when I was growing up as a kid. The PW was 52* and I carried 1 - SW. Each iron had a purpose and a distance.

The marketing (and that's all it is) that has done away with classic lofts is simply rubbish.

Let's stick to our ideals.....good on ya man.

You do not really have to make them longer. Wasn't Hogan's 5 iron 37 inches?

[NiftyNiblick]

I agree, just use a different club.

Yes, that absolutely works as far as the classic vs. modern lofts argument goes. I'd rather see the stamping on the sole that I want to see, but if I got past that, I could just use another club.

My new crusade is the 5° increment thing. With #s 6-9 irons at 30, 35, 40, and 45°, that simple setup in the middle makes configuring the top and bottom a lot more flexible.

Edited December 31, 2008 by NiftyNiblick

[xxio]

Bending wouldn't be much of an issue then since you are talking about mainly bending only 1-3degrees.

[NiftyNiblick]

Bending wouldn't be much of an issue then since you are talking about mainly bending only 1-3degrees.

Absolutely right, xxio, especially if you don't worry about the stamping. If the stamping doesn't have to be right, you could keep it under 3° and not alter the sole configuration that much.

In case I haven't explained it yet, however, this is why those lofts that I mention might allow a perfectly balanced bag configuration for some seniors like me.

12 or 13° driver

17° 4-wood

20, 23, 26° hybrids

>>>>>>30, 35, 40, 45° six through nine irons--this is the perfect middle that makes configuring the top and bottom easy.

50, 55, 60° turf wedges (medium-low, medium-low, ultra-low bounce)

DEDICATED SAND IRON --sorry, I like these

putter

The above might be the perfect set for me at this stage of my game. It's do-able, but harder than it should be.

That's it. We can probably let this thread die now before it bores everybody to death!

Thanks again for the dialogue, guys.

[Phillip Alexander]

Absolutely right, xxio, especially if you don't worry about the stamping. If the stamping doesn't have to be right, you could keep it under 3° and not alter the sole configuration that much.

In case I haven't explained it yet, however, this is why those lofts that I mention might allow a perfectly balanced bag configuration for some seniors like me.

12 or 13° driver

17° 4-wood

20, 23, 26° hybrids

>>>>>>30, 35, 40, 45° six through nine irons--this is the perfect middle that makes configuring the top and bottom easy.

50, 55, 60° turf wedges (medium-low, medium-low, ultra-low bounce)

DEDICATED SAND IRON --sorry, I like these

putter

The above might be the perfect set for me at this stage of my game. It's do-able, but harder than it should be.

That's it. We can probably let this thread die now before it bores everybody to death!

I think you underate the subject.

In my view the bag you describe is just about perfect for most club golfers.

The fact that I am now older than I was 30 years ago LOL means the best way to get around the course is having a set up as you describe (mine is pretty close).

My veiw is you have raised a very worthwhile subject and provided a very useful perspective on it.

Thanks again for the dialogue, guys.