Counterfeit JDM clubs piss me off

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I thought only Epon was made in Endo Japan, all other get Endo Thailand?

Hi X,

Lot's of brands are made at Endo Japan. Myself and Gocchin were able to witness this first hand on several occasions.

Sometimes a certain allocation for a single brand is made both in Japan & Thailand. I guess it depends on the factory capacity but I have also heard that for tax, shipping, and duty reasons they produce some stuff in different countries or their own.

[gocchin]

Yes that's right when I visited the factory with Chris they were forging, Titliest, Cobra, Callaway and we watched them manufacture Legacy Drivers, Yamaha and S-Yard drivers during our visit. (Nike drivers at the time too but not anymore)

We even got to join in the QA line and pull out a few heads that did not meet standard. It was quite the experience.

The Endo Factory in Japan is huge... it has far more capacity than just making Epon which is a small brand compared to the big OEM's.

Certain clubs are sent off to Thailand for finishing and assembly as costs are lower there so it really depends on the brand/OEM and their requirements.

As a matter of fact while we were there, Titleist USA execs and management were also touring the factory.

[Goodsie]

You would be surprised from what I have seen. I actually played with a Crazy T80 shaft that perhaps cost less than $100. The guy who owns it never heard of Crazy but bought it with a new fake R9 head in China for $150. Unless you are a Japanese club ho or a forum member here, you wouldn't have heard of Crazy. Right?

Fake Shafts are easy to copy, especially Graphite Shafts .....a coat of paint and there it is...an $9.00 Shaft painted to look like a $450.00 Shaft. Now, that will really make you mad when you discover you are playing with a Fake Noodle and not the mighty thunder stick you thought you bought.

What is happening more often now are Fake Iron sets. The Counterfeiter is "buying" or "printing" high end Shaft Labels and applying them to cheap Shafts. Hot deals on Shafts found on the popular Auction Sites are usually Fake as Fake can be. These Fakes, its sad to say, are starting to show up in some of the BST Forums too (but not TSG's BST). Our TSG'ers are honest and stand behind their offerings.

I get phone calls all the time from guys checking on my prices for Shafts only to be told that they can get "X" brand for less than I can buy it Direct as a Distributor, now shouldn't that tell you that you are buying a Fake....it would me!!

Do your "Due Diligence" before you get sucked into the "Deal of a Lifetime" on your Golf Equipment.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Man, took me a while to decide even to read this post! Didn't know folks actually were making fake JDM stuff. The way I see it now, as far as forged anything goes, stick with what you know. If you don't know, ask. Also, dealing with a certified custom club fitter wouldn't hurt either. That's truly the way I found out about Tour Spec...well, he told me about golf wrx and found out about gocchin and you guys through them. :p

That's one reason, why I'm skeptical about getting any OEM stuff anymore. I mean, as far as I can tell, Taylor Made has the only true forged (made in, not assembled...) stuff in JP next to Mizuno...right? Heck, I'd play with Callaway's proto's if they were forged in JP (and if I could afford 'em. :p). Ever since I've been on the KZG bandwagon, I've been looking to see who else has forged blades in JP, especifically from th Keyoi plant.

Another thing people should understand about the JP market, is that the prices gocchin has on Tour Spec, are very competitive to what the have in other store in JP. I'll admit, I've tried other sources to buy real JP spec stuff outside of this store and gocchin's prices are on point. Even if you'd try to use those auction sites that let you bid on Yahoo JP or even tourspecgolf, you're going to be in the same price range...period. Yeah, you may find a deal or luck up here and there, but it's far and few in between. (Trust me, I've looked and continue to look..)

Hey Shout, You don't need to look any further. We always work with the customer on price but even more importantly you have TSG to back you up if anything goes wrong as far as manufacturing defects or replacements. Trust me when things are not right the OEM gets an ear full and has to work it out.

You get good prices, experts to help with online fitting and our profits are mostly reinvested into web features, in depth's and new projects.

We don't simply offer Japanese products to the golf world, we seek out the best products and bring them to the main stage.

[Shambles]

Hey Shout, You don't need to look any further. We always work with the customer on price but even more importantly you have TSG to back you up if anything goes wrong as far as manufacturing defects or replacements. Trust me when things are not right the OEM gets an ear full and has to work it out.

You get good prices, experts to help with online fitting and our profits are mostly reinvested into web features, in depth's and new projects.

We don't simply offer Japanese products to the golf world, we seek out the best products and bring them to the main stage.

Sure you'll do your best to deliver the genuine article but really, how does a consumer figure out whether he recieved the genuine article and it was just wrong for him, or if it was a counterfeit that got past you, or past your supplier.

I'm disinclined to complain or return products as the cost of doing so is too often not worth the time and trouble. This business is heavily reliant on trust and when I'm wrong as a consumer there is really nothing more to do than suck it up or throw more money into the mix.

The problem of counterfeits falls into the industries hands. You could probably help by exposing them and showing why they can be considered counterfeits but that would also be helping the counterfeiter improve his disguise. It might be a tired old solution but I think the only real way for a consumer to protect himself is to ONLY buy from a licensed retailer, or a retailer who personally stands behind his products. Trust is truly a very important part of this business.

Shambles

[MorrisHill]

well, how to recognize the original and the fack one quickly? only the price?

[gbs]

well, how to recognize the original and the fack one quickly? only the price?

another easy way is to post the pics here and let the experts help you determine. I guess it takes lots of experience to distinguish one unless its a bad fake.

See nowadays the silkscreen for the shafts are too easily obtainable. I have seen these machines in China and for a reasonable price, you can get one put into your garage. I guess its really buying from a reliable source would be the best bet.

Hope this helps

Edited November 15, 2010 by gbs

[Bunker18]

well, how to recognize the original and the fack one quickly? only the price?

Yes post them here to be able to tell for sure.

Other things that should alert you is the price, where it is being shipped from, if it is heads only (for major brands), sometimes the emblems and the appearance may be slightly different.

[18th Legion]

Yea the X-Forged was done by Endo, KZG for the most part is done by Kyoei. The former president of Kyoei quit and owns Vega and Distributes Matrix & KZG in Japan.

Another thing that irks me is clone golf clubs. They turn the taylormade burner into the Turner, Cobra becomes snake bite, R7 becomes Ti7, its another form of fake clubs IMO.

Agreed. It is my understanding that because the Counterfeit/Copy market has grown so much that the Clone/Knock-Off market has shrunk a little. Either way they are fakes. I thought I would share this article I wrote a while back on another blog when challanged that Clones/Knock-Offs were o.k. and a good way for people to get started in golf:

Lynn Mayhew

Hey Gang,

I hate the Clone business and any operator who promotes and sells them. I have reprinted some thoughts. Before the bombardment comes just to clarify:

Clone/Knock-Off Golf Clubs: Have cosmetic resemblance to true Manufacturer Clubs, but internally they are not the same. Construction, Material, or Quality. They may have similar names Turner T7, Gallery, and so on. A Clone or Knock off is not hard to see. Go to eBay, or Diamond Tour. Turner T7 that resembles a TaylorMade r7.

Counterfeit/Copy Golf Clubs: Are direct copies of OEM equipment. Lasers are used to copy the exterior of high selling clubs; again, there is no internal accuracy, nor the same construction, material or quality. Counterfeits or a Copy, are much harder to tell and that is why the Golf manufacturers are in fact going after these factories.

Component Golf Clubs: Such as, Infiniti, SMT, Nakashima, and KZG, are original designs and are legitimate and ARE NOT part of any reference.

Knock-Offs/Clone Golf clubs operate in a gray area. Determination of trademark infringement is tough to prove and costly. Although new legislation is going to clarify this further.

Major Brands, members of the U.S. Golf Manufacturers Anti-Counterfeiting Working Group, have their hands and funds fully committed at the moment going after Counterfeit Clubs.

What's the harm in buying a Knock-Off/Clone? Counterfeit Clubs and Knock-Offs are manufactured in the same factories in China. So while, technically you may not be buying and thereby promoting counterfeit clubs, you are in fact enabling those same facilities to continue by buying Clones/Knock-Offs.

Let's connect the dots. Nearly all Clubheads come from China and Thailand. The rest (save for some Ping), come from Japan. The factories that produce for legitimate OEMs are not permitted to make clones. Those factories are inspected regularly by the OEMs. They are legitimate. (That’s not to say that the occasional employee sneaks off with a proto clubhead).

Clones come from the same Chinese factories that produce Counterfeit clubs. Thereby, purchasing Clones ultimately supports those factories who build Counterfeit clubs.

Quality wise, any golfer regardless of handicap is better served buying quality used equipment or buying a new but discontinued model.

If a component seller such as Diamond Tour wants to be fully legitimate, they need to invest fully in true component companies such as SMT, and abandon the practice of selling Clone clubs. Counterfeit Clubs and Clone Clubs, the operators who sell and produce, contribute to higher prices of the legitimate brands.

There are just too many cases backing up the problems. It has become rampant and that is why Acushnet (Titleist/Cobras), Adams, Callaway, Cleveland, Ping, and TaylorMade are part of and formed the U.S. Golf Manufacturers Anti-Counterfeiting Working Group.

However, China cannot enforce without participation of the Patented/trademark holder. Which they are doing, but it is costly. There have been recent factories busted in China. They are concentrating on Counterfeits and Copys, but again, Clones and Knock Offs are part of the same problem. There just simply is not the time or money right now to go after them.

One doesn't have to be an Attorney to read or be educated on the law. To say that a consumer has no responsibility is, well sad. It is the consumers who have the most power to affect change. Consumers changed the cars that Detroit made by speaking out and buying economical foreign autos.

One more time; Clones are referred to as Knock-Offs. Counterfeit Clubs are also referred to as Copies. Two different items under the law, but part and parcel of the same problem.

Neither are quality because while laser technology can scan the outside, it cannot scan the inside. There are many reasons besides marketing costs why they are cheaper. Material used is cheaper. No Research and Design Costs. No Reps. No Service. No U.S. or Japan assembly.

It doesn't cost that much more to purchase legitimate past year models. It does however cost money to get started in golf. Starting should also include lessons. A PGA Professional will give a lesson to anyone, but ask them if a Clone/Knock-Off club is a good choice and see what type of answer you will get. For those who feel Clones perform just as well as OEM - I won't argue that point, you have convinced yourself.

This site is full of PGA Professionals, Company Reps, and the suggestion to use Clone/Knock Off clubs is disrespectful. Golf is a game of honor. You invest your time and should invest equally in your equipment. Clones are a short cut. Make yourself aware. Goggle "Counterfeit Golf Clubs" and take a look at how rampant it is. Read further and you will find that the same factories involved are also producing Clone Clubs.

It may be understandable that we as consumers can be fooled by Counterfeits/Copys (Illegal), but there is no way anyone of us could not identify a Clone/Knock-Off (Legal). It is your decision and right (for the time being) to buy a Clone/Knock-Off. It just isn't admirable.

For those who want to play Knock-Offs, yes it is your "right". Just ask yourself, have you ever had someone take credit for your hard work? Has anyone ever stolen an idea or proposal you have written? Has anyone ever stolen a customer of yours? Do you not find all of those cases wrong, frustrating, and near impossible to prove? Knock-Offs operate under the same principle. Someone else designed it, so they're going to laser copy it, skip the R&D, use cheaper material, spend nothing on advertising the new design, and take money from a certain consumer segment. The uninformed, the newbie, the consumer who is jealous of the success of OEMs and their need to earn profits.

There is a difference in this world with having "the right" to do something, and doing something with honor. It would be more honorable for a person to show up with RAMs purchased at Target than to use Knock-Offs/Clones. The later hurts the Golf Manufacturers and the integrity of their designs, thereby hurts all involved, Reps, Retailers, and yes ultimately the game of golf.

Ultimately my point in all of this is that of all Sports activities, Golf is a gentleman’s game, it is honor, and it is self-policing. Those involved in this great game should have a certain level of ethics. Not driven only by what is legal, but what is righteous.