How much do you...know about Japanese Golf Club Manufacturing?

[Spoon]

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need

a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed

to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due

to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a

$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my

questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being

Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.

whats worst is you if you are not getting for what you think you are paying for , with intent to deceive its another story. there could be a possibility that someone was mislead into representing his product as such only to find out later it wasnt so. the proper thing to do would apologize and come clean, a cover up would only make things worse.

fwiw i used to be a scratch distributor in manila but dropped the brand a year or so ago. il keep my comments to myself for the time being but i got a the same feeling chris posted in his blog but that wasnt so much as an issue as the south east asian distributor i was dealing with to bring em in but that is another story.

btw we do share some common friends in japan that are very credible sources in regards to forging so i wouldnt completely discount his articles.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Spoon

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Chris, I've been reading the posts on the others site and they all want to attack you. They seem to forget you blogged this on your own site

informing your customers and forum readers, you didn't post it on Golfwrx. or even respond to it until Ari attacked you on that forum. I think

you have proven your points except for the 1018 debate, and with the club being submitted for testing should clear that up also.

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need

a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed

to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due

to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a

$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my

questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being

Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.

Ya know it may be more credible if I use a customers wedge for the test. PM me I will compensate you for it. We will send a total of two Scratch wedges for testing. But no matter what the result we already know that 1018 is not the softest forging. As I mentioned before S10C and S15C are softer and JIS grade. Yet after heat treatment they feel about the same as S25C anyway. We can sell both as raw blanks if people are interested I would just have to bring in several hundred. Also keep in mind that it's confirmed that 1018 does not meet JIS standards and would be sourced from mainland China not Japan.

[Keen]

Interesting debate...

Just one point/question.

Just because 1018 in general doesn't conform to JIS standard might not necessarily mean that there isn't good quality 1018 to be had from China, or whereever. Or am I thinking wrong?

It would be, IMO, beyond retarded for Scratch not to be 100% sure about their irons and wedges being 1018 when it is one of their main selling point (the other being the different grinds).

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Interesting debate...

Just one point/question.

Just because 1018 in general doesn't conform to JIS standard might not necessarily mean that there isn't good quality 1018 to be had from China, or wherever. Or am I thinking wrong?

It would be, IMO, beyond retarded for Scratch not to be 100% sure about their irons and wedges being 1018 when it is one of their main selling point (the other being the different grinds).

Hi Keen,

Your right China may have a decent quality 1018 but it's not feasible for the Factory to do a metallurgy test on each sheet before its used to produce golf clubs. The tolerance is very wide and the material is unreliable with 1018. On top of that my factory and design contacts even suggest against S10C or S15C for Golf Club production and still strongly claim that no one uses 1018 to produce golf clubs in Japan.

Even the factory that Ishihara-shoten usually sources raw heads from from in Okayama-Ken doesn't use 1018. This is the most likely place that Scratch Heads come from. I know this is where the blanks for the TSG wedge were ordered from and Scratch sold those to me on the basis that they were 1018 Ishihara Forged.

** I do have to correct one thing I stated before **

( The TSG wedge was not produced by Kyoei, with further research we know that Ishihara-Shoten outsourced the job to Asahi Golf who purchased the S25C blank from Okayama-Ken, we know down to the grinder who produced these wedges ).

Its commonly known in the U.S, Japan, & China that S20-S25C is optimal for golf club production. Engineers in the U.S OEMs know this to be true and should inquire if they have any doubt.

S20C is hardened to about the same level as S25C for best use. In fact Mizuno used to use S20C then switched to S25C, not sure about the reason but both materials cost about the same.

Bottom line is that there is no reason to use 1018 from China over S25C JIS. It's a clear downgrade in materials.

[wedgit]

Its commonly known in the U.S, Japan, & China that S20-S25C is optimal for golf club production. Engineers in the U.S OEMs know this to be true and should inquire if they have any doubt.

S20C is hardened to about the same level as S25C for best use. In fact Mizuno used to use S20C then switched to S25C, not sure about the reason but both materials cost about the same.

Bottom line is that there is no reason to use 1018 from China over S25C JIS. It's a clear downgrade in materials.

So, exactly who is using S20-S25C in their 'Japan Forged' clubheads?

What are the results of the testing?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

So, exactly who is using S20-S25C in their 'Japan Forged' clubheads?

What are the results of the testing?

The results will be known in about 19 days.

Everyone is using S20C-S25C in their Japan Forged club heads.

[HULC1105]

I don't have anything to say in this Scratch vs. TSG business, I don't have any scratch clubs in my bag. But for those who attacks Chris' integrity and ethnic standard, I can give you my personal opinion on that matter.

I bought TWO Yururi iron from TSG about a year and half ago, both proto blade. I love the look and the fact that they are limit production, I got my best friend one set, and one for myself. The transaction was fast and very good, as usual.

When Chris broke the news of dropping Yururi from TSG proshop, I was really upset, and wrote Chris an email, within 12 hours, he replied and explained everything to me. He was courteous and considerate, and was willing to "compensate" me (I used compensate, because that's the word I used when I was writing my emails to him, while I was pretty upset.), when he didn't have to do.

You have to understand that it takes a lot from a man to admit his fault, and it takes an extraordinary amount of courage out of man to admit when the fault isn't his. Chris did not just bull-*hit me and point his finger to anyone else (Yururi), he did NOT just want the sales, he wants me as a customer to be satisfied. If I can, I will post our back and forth emails up and show them to everyone who questions his motive.

Let the numbers talk, let the cold facts talk. We can wait.

HULC1105

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Something I should clarify In regards to Miura forging:

The factory in Okayama-ken does 90% of the forging then Miura reheats it and uses a small pressing machine to smooth the surface.

Still they are not forged in house just waned to update you guy's with that latest tid bit. Not discrediting the brand in anyway they make SOLID product.

[xxio]

90% of the whole process? 90% of the forging? rough shape? both head and hosel?

Just asking for clarifications.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

90% of the whole process? 90% of the forging? rough shape? both head and hosel?

Just asking for clarifications.

90% of the entire forging process. More than rough shape and yes both head and hosel. the Final 10% smooths the surface.

[xxio]

Thank you for the clarification.

So they are not subcontracted but really a different entity (the foundry) all together? the employees are not under the control of Miura, they just approve the final product.

[Spoon]

chris, ari claims that ishihara san (old man) is still alive and well and that they are corresponding on an almost daily basis and he is upset for obvious reasons.

we know you have had some heads tested for metal content, can you also get some proof that ishihara has passed away?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

chris, ari claims that ishihara san (old man) is still alive and well and that they are corresponding on an almost daily basis and he is upset for obvious reasons.

we know you have had some heads tested for metal content, can you also get some proof that ishihara has passed away?

Is he really still saying this? That's not really even in question anymore.

Ari could be trying to confuse people by saying the Mr. Ishihara of Ishihara-Shoten who he talks to is still alive but the one Scratch promoted their company off of the "founder of MOZ" has passed away and he wasn't even a foundry nor did he speak english. I spoke to Ari about this years ago, he acknowledged it.

I guess the direct question to Ari should be: Is the Mr. Ishihara founder of MOZ still alive?

Ari has openly admitted to dealing with Ishihara-Shoten. These guy's are middle men to help companies with no Japanese connections. C'mon Ari tried to pass them off as a foundry, he tried to pass off his irons as original designs and 1018 as the softest steel in all of golf and now he is trying to word himself out of trouble. What irk's me the most is he is making personal attacks against me instead of trying to talk facts and info.

Ishihara-Shoten is ordering the product for scratch, no one know's who Ari is in Japan because he doesnt deal direct with the manufactures of his own product.

Anyway update on the metal testing is we are waiting on a Tour Department wedge to arrive, should be tomorrow. We have a standard wedge, Tour Dept Wedge, and EZ-1 iron going in for testing. I think we are about 10 days out from an answer on the 1018 question.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Results are in!

Visit the Blog to read the full article!

www.golftoimpress.com

[idrive]

Cool,

I just doubled my money as I had my money on Chris and TSG

You die hard Scratch fans just have to realize Ari is a snake who only cares about himself and making money at your expense. He will do everything posiible to make more money and that means cutting corners and misleading advertising.

Don't be pissed at me, it's just the way it is.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The test wasn't cheap but we can send in more heads for testing if there is any doubt.

I want to thank the guy's that donated their heads for the testing.

[EPONfreak]

well done to Chris, I had no doubt the lab results would vindicate his statements.

I have never owned any scratch clubs, those that own them seem to like them, who cares. Neither do I know and have never dealt with Ari. Clearly he doesn't even know where his own product comes from. These's nothing wrong with the open model heads, many use and modify them.

However, relying on your customers lack of understanding to the manufacturing process to market flat out miss information is very poor, as are the personal accusations he made against Chris which would seem to apply to him and certainly not to Chris.

I'll be interested to see what the scratch groupies on WRX have to say and see if Ari will appologise as would seem highly appropriate.

[born4golf77]

sounds good chris but there is a thread w/ ari's tests on golfwrx that says they are 1018 along w/ actual images of the test results w/ testing agencies numbers.

in my opinion neither you nor him can end this debate with tests because you both "have a dog in the fight" to borrow an over used cliche.

the only way this debate will end is thru a test of clubs submitted thru someone other than the two of you.

there has been an offering of an unbiased source to submit heads to a university for testing to validate either your tests or his tests.

i honestly hope someone other than you or ari will do another test of clubs bought off the rack (not given to them by you or him) to another independent testing company so that this debate can end.

i dont care who "wins". as a consumer i just want the truth.

[rick0128]

I really can't see the point there with WRX.

Chris already said....non in Japan making 1018...

So now Ari is trying to prove that their products are actually 1018 made.

That means he's trying to say that they are not made in Japan?

Furthermore, their claim about Forged by Ishihara-Shoten...

We already know its not a truth.....

Plus.....the original design of iron heads....is also not a truth...

I see no point keep arguing....the best option shoud be finding a way to apologize....

And for those ppl saying they don't care the material been using...as long as it feels good...

No one is trying to say that Scratch products ain't good....

But its like you paying big bucks for US prime beef...but the actual thing you got its US choise..

There's nothing wrong with the beef....and it does also taste very good.....but something is not right there...don't you agree?!

[+TourSpecGolfer]

1018 Wedge

EZ-1 Iron

Just an update here for those who have not read the post on WRX.

Ari has had some testing done of his own for several wedges and the company that did the testing is legit no doubt. It's a surprise to me that the testing was in favor of them using 1018 in their wedges yet the suspicious thing was Scratch did no testing on their irons and in our testing the irons came out in the S25C range dispite Scratch's official claim that their irons are produced of 1018.

Here are the results of Ari's testing:

Scratch 50*

Scratch 58*

TourSpecGolf Wedge

He also says that our test was done with a 2004 Scratch Wedge but that shouldnt make a difference they have been advertising 1018 even back then.

In a nutshell he is distancing himself from the Ishihara Forged claim and now admits that his heads are open model designs that have been adjusted.

Anyway this really doesn't change my stance on anything. I did some digging in our very own forum and his own statements contradict his recent claims.

Example 1: He is basically saying where they get the raw heads from ( Tada Mfg. ) and that both Miura & Ishihara get's their heads from here.

Example 2: Everyone including myself is led to believe that his products were produced by Ishihara of MOZ.

Example 3: More confusion portraying an affiliation with Ishihara MOZ.

In the past he has stated Ishihara Foundry forges Scratch Golf Clubs yet Above he also says that Ishihara purchases the Raw heads from the same place Miura does. Then they switch to using Ishihara-Shoten as their Foundry later and now that it's 100% that neither Ishihara or Ishihara-Shoten were a foundry he is conveniently saying that Ishihara-Shoten no longer forges due to the Japanese Golf Economy. Well the only problem with that is we know without doubt that they were never a foundry to begin with.

I'm pretty much done on this topic. If you guys want to pool together 10 scratch heads for testing I will pony up the cash for it from METL or MSi. I feel the truth has been set free and proof of that is how Ari is distancing himself from past claims while staying away from the other questions.

In the end there are those who really don't care if the brand mislead them as long as the product performs well, then there are those who will loyally support the side they are on guilty or not, and then there are those who get upset when mislead and actually want to know if the product they are purchased is worth the money paid.

I will say that Scratch does make a good product and Ari is a good person. He has a very nice and always positive attitude but beware of the false advertising that comes with it.

[idrive]

I don't like him (Ari)

He has treated me as an ass. People that think they know this story don't have a clue what really went on and the things that were said.

I know a lot about many of his dealings and the bottom line is I don't trust him as far

as I can throw him and right now my back is killing me.

A Scratch product that is fit to you properly (I've always wondered how you do that over the telephone)

is a very good product. Is it worth the premium price???

Not to me. Not if I'm not getting the "premium" in materials and forgings I'm supposed to be getting.

[golf4fun]

The only way for this to be solved is to get members clubs and send them in to be tested, probably needs to

be a 3rd party send them in for testing to someone other than METL or MSi.

Ari really hasn't answered any of the questions, and has stated his irons are being forged somewhere

else now. I agree with idrive about the fitting process, the customer is basically fitting themselves

over the phone or via email, so you fit yourself, pay a premium price, and maybe you get premium

material or not!

[born4golf77]

chris,

thanks for the update and the actual reports. i just want the truth and i think we ( the members of both forums) should do our own independent tests like you said to get to the bottom of this.

i personally dont care how it turns out i have heard good things about both you and him.

however it looks like as far as the wedges are concerned we have two tests with two different results (obviously the irons he did not test).

ari says he is marketing the wedges as being made out of the equivalent of american standard 1018. i honestly have no idea what the spec requirements are for any of these metals but i would like to know what they are. (edit- just looked up the spec req for 1018 and ari's test does show that the manganese content is not high enough to be labeled 1018- it does fit specs for 1015). also between your test and his it looks like some big variances . i am sure both you and he know the real truth and obviously this is a touchy situation with a lot of members here and on golfwrx.

i do appreciate your transparency with posting both your tests and his for the sake of comparison and full disclosure.

thanks again and like you said i dont think scratch is a bad product at all either, i think the open mold he uses is probably one of the most used and successful models that has come out in a while and the grinds on the wedges are useful for many people. i just want to know if the metal is truly 1018 or not.

i dont like arguing and i too think nothing will be settled until independent tests are performed on multiple wedges and iron heads. if someone wants to raise money for the tests i would be glad to chip in.

thanks

Edited March 22, 2010 by born4golf77

[+TourSpecGolfer]

In Ari's tests from MSI the results don't show 1018 they show 1015 or S15C. What's odd is we have never heard the term "American 1018" used by Scratch.

S15C is JIS grade material so in those tests he may be using something of a higher quality than 1018. If that's the case he should run with that because 1018 is a clear downgrade over S15C.

Then again this 1018 thing was just my hunch. Based on both Ari's MSi test and our METL test still nothing came in at 1018 as Scratch advertises. That still doesn't explain the 1010 rating we had in the METL test.

I still can't find 1018 being offered by any foundry in Japan. It is highly unlikely that Scratch has been purchasing 1018 from the USA or China and shipping it to Japan because thats a huge extra expense they have to pay to use inferior metal.

Importing 1018 from the USA or China and using a middle company like Ishihara-Shoten would in theory add a lot to the products wholesale cost. Their margins are too good for that.

I doubt they were sourcing 1018 from the USA and shipping it to Japan when things first started. What would prove me wrong is a past invoice dated from the American foundry showing that 1018 heads were shipped to the factory in Japan.

I can however find S15C in Japan similar to what Miura has used for wedges in the past. It's about the same price as S25C and available from a couple of factories. It just so happens that one of the two factories that supply S15C is the same one that Ari claimed supplies Scratch & Miura back in 2006. Both of those factories do not supply 1018.

S15C is no longer used by wedge companies in Japan because the hardness rating becomes the same as S20C and S25C after heat treatment. S15C is able to be forged using lower heat and a less pressured press. Golf Engineers still do not suggest S15C for golf club use over S20C & S25C.

Ari's MSi tests show 1015 or S15C not 1018. His own evidence goes against his claim of 1018.

I didn't think the public would get held up on the 1018 thing as much as they did. I thought that Ishihara not being a foundry was the big deal.

[Shambles]

You never really know what words people will latch on to. I don't much care about the metal being used but am rather upset about the false advertising and the subsequent equivocations.

Shambles