BIG Debate going on over at GolfWRX about steel vs graphite in irons

[Mjr. D]

Thought this was an interesting excerpt. I honestly don't know the answer here. Talked to Goodsie on here about it and he believes steel is superior if you can handle the weight.

[ant]

you might be interested reading http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/08/new-ozik-program-130-iron-shafts/ and comments there. i would love to try high end graphite to be honest because i think it has advantages given it can match or better steel specs but until i do i'm not convinced that right now even high end graphite is superior to properly matched steel. then there is the price of course. til it gets even remotely reasonable, ie not for a set of shafts to cost roughly the same as a set of good clubs made, it doesnt make sense for me.

Thought this was an interesting excerpt. I honestly don't know the answer here. Talked to Goodsie on here about it and he believes steel is superior if you can handle the weight.

[Jerry in China]

All right, I am using a set of blades with steel shafts. They look cool. And that is the reason I choose them. Haha. Scientifically, if we look at the process of how shafts are made and how heads are made, we will find that cast is better than forge, graphite is better than steel.

Steel shaft is made by two ways. One is make a chunk of steel with a hole in it, and then dragged to be a tube, and then put to stepped shape. The other one is fold a sheet to the shape. After that, heat treated. The process, just from reading it, is hard to control the exact shape, density in each area, etc etc. However, graphite shafts are made through a molding process with layers of carbon sheets, which were weaven into exact form, and then resin will be added with uniform pattern, etc. The process can be very fine tuned to control each spec. And tees, you can make identical graphite shafts.

Samething come to forge and cast. Casting is a better controlled process.

But anyway, I still prefer forged blades and steel shaft. Just like we prefer patek phillippe mechanic watch, although electronic ones are much more accurate.

[Mjr. D]

All I know is that the majority of the best players in the world use steel shafts. They're pretty good. Clearly steel isn't inhibiting their game. If I could play anywhere nearly as good as them, I'd be happy.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I think graphite trumps steel based on experience. I hit it longer and straighter. The long irons get roll forward and short irons stop and drop.

Same set with steel a push goes out to the right much more and pulls go more left. It's as if graphite returns the head to square a bit better.

I like steel alot too though. Feel is improved with graphite for me as well.

I've hit a lot of graphite for many rounds, Roddio I-10's, Crazy LY, Crazy CB80 limiteds, Quadra's, Thumps. I'm sold on graphite!

I do not buy what the worlds best players play is the best. It's pure marketing when it comes to that.

[clevelaand]

I think graphite trumps steel based on experience. I hit it longer and straighter. The long irons get roll forward and short irons stop and drop.

Same set with steel a push goes out to the right much more and pulls go more left. It's as if graphite returns the head to square a bit better.

I like steel alot too though. Feel is improved with graphite for me as well.

I've hit a lot of graphite for many rounds, Roddio I-10's, Crazy LY, Crazy CB80 limiteds, Quadra's, Thumps. I'm sold on graphite!

I do not buy what the worlds best players play is the best. It's pure marketing when it comes to that.

Have to chime in here about "I do not buy what the worlds' best players play is the best." Do you really believe that if graphite shafts improved the pro's games that they would not be using them? They are playing for big bucks each week and for their livelyhoods. They are constantly tinkering with their equipment and trying new products in order to gain an advantage over their fellow pros. And I am sure everyone of them has tested graphite shafts in their irons. If graphite shafts performed better than steel shafts, I guarantee everyone of them would be using them.

I also like graphite shafts and use them, but as a club builder and having tested and played both steel and graphite shafts, steel shafts are more consistant and have a tighter ball dispersion on shots to the green. Graphite shafts are longer but pros are not that concerned with hitting the balls longer, they already hit the ball a long way. They want accuracy with their irons and steel gives that to them.

[Mjr. D]

Goodsie is also a club builder and he has told me things along the same lines. Says graphite is getting close, but not there yet. Gotta say, the Matrix Program 130 shafts are pretty respectable. I'm playing them in Epons right now.... very nice.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Here's where I do agree, That currently there is no graphite iron shaft that fits the PGA players requirements as well as steel on Tour. Steel is cheap and does the job just fine.

I totally agree that steel features a tighter dispersion vs graphite currently on the market but graphite can be made to have a dispersion that is equal or even tighter than steel today. It just simply has not been done yet.

In the aerospace industry they produce carbon composites that are stronger and more rigid than steel. Combined with nano tech can create specific shapes at different speeds. Graphite golf shafts may not be superior today but material vs material there is no doubt graphite trumps steel.

Currently there is no real market for heavy and stiff graphite for the better player. My take on it is that the segment is so minuscule it makes no sense to produce, market, and release them.

I think that changing the golf consumers perception around this would be an up hill battle. Convincing the masses to purchase a much more expensive product that does only slightly better than cheaper steel would be nearly impossible.

The designs and technology need to improve making graphite iron shafts much better as well as the price coming down.

Lets pretend for a bit that graphite was as cheap as steel and so was the manufacturing+labor involved. And it had 50-75% market share. I think it would be pushed to the very forefront by every shaft company. It just isn't at this point and it may never be. It could be totally overkill for golf, who knows as so much relies on the swing.

My own personal experience is that the Matrix Program 130's are outstanding. played them in two different iron sets. good feel and almost as tight as steel.

I've since moved on to the CBi-80 103-110g 80T shafts, the feel and distance is solid and so is the dispersion. No one will buy them at 400 bucks per shaft though. It was Crazy building the best graphite iron shaft they could make with what they have. They never intended to make money with it.

[Goodsie]

Thought this was an interesting excerpt. I honestly don't know the answer here. Talked to Goodsie on here about it and he believes steel is superior if you can handle the weight.

Interesting Post about Graphite Shafts being so consistent from one Shaft to the other versus Steel, I only ask Mjr. "D" to chime in and tell everyone about the registration of the label on his Program 130's in his AF302's. Very few of the label's are in the same position in each Club when "Tuned", thus the statement that Graphite Iron Shafts can be made to be the same is not totally accurate. Each and every Shaft, whether it be Steel or Graphite has its own "fingerprint" which is not consistent from one Shaft to the other even by the same Manufacturer. Paint jobs (Shaft labels) do not reflect the true bend/torque properties of each Shaft...it is just paint.

I have been "Tuning Shafts" for a long time (Pure/FLO) and have yet to find two Shafts, of either Steel or Graphite, made by the same OEM that comes out in the same place each time. Hand rolled Shafts made by the best Craftsmen in the world can't possibly make each Shaft they make the same. Machine rolled Shafts should come closer to being the same but just aren't due to varying thicknesses of the carbon sheets, weight differences, etc.

I am not beating a drum for Steel over Graphite Shafts, it just that Graphite isn't quite there yet versus Steel. Now don't think that the leading Steel Shaft manufacturer's are just sitting around the Office eating BonBons, as they are not. They are trying every day to improve their manufacturing technology to put out a better product. We can only look at the huge inroads that Nippon and FST (KBS Tour, Super Peening) have made in their manufacturing processes to turn out some of the highest quality Steel Shafts man has ever seen.

This whole Steel versus Graphite race will be fun to watch as both camps develop better products and WE, the Golfer, can only win as we will be able to play absolutely terrific Shafts as a result no matter what we chose to put in our Clubs.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Goodsie

[idrive]

If I were building/marketing shafts... graphite in particular....

I would go after the middle aged - senior golfers.

Graphite goes farther than steel and

much easier on the body.

The slower swing speeds don't know the difference in the dispersion....

I have a set of graphite shafted irons I use when I have to

hit off of mats. There is a big difference in the shock factor

to the joints.

I would rather play steel. For me I still think they work better, especially

for the price compared to the high end graphite.

But,

I can see the time approaching when the extra yards, the softened

shock to the joints.... will be nice. Hope they get the technology and

prices down!!! :)

[Vegaman]

How about durability? The newer graphite shafts are getting ever more glass particles in them, and every time you read about high end graphite shafts, its mentioned how "brittle" and sensitive they are..I had a set of Wilsons with graphite shafts in stiff when I started out and kept breaking them just above the hosel, first the PW and then the 7 iron if I remember correctly. That is, all the clubs you hit "down" with..Or at least the clubs I hit down with.

im a pretty aggressive with my short irons, like to hit hard punch shots and Im pretty sure Graphite would break after a year or 2, especially if I went to the range a lot, no matter how good quality it is. Actually, the better the quality of the graphite the quicker it might break? Since better means more delicate, with thinner walls, when it comes to graphite shafts?

I also had a Callaway set before with stiff shafts and i broke those in the short irons too, and no, Im not a huge digger, but I do take a nice pretty long divot with my short irons.

Its no surprise that one of the few male pros hitting graphite is the rather weak bodied Colin Montgomerie that has a swing almost totally dependent on smooth timing. And it might not be a total accident that he looks at least 10 years older than he really is? :atsg_smilie_pot:

Edited April 14, 2011 by Vegaman

[+TourSpecGolfer]

How about durability? The newer graphite shafts are getting ever more glass particles in them, and every time you read about high end graphite shafts, its mentioned how "brittle" and sensitive they are..I had a set of Wilsons with graphite shafts in stiff when I started out and kept breaking them just above the hosel, first the PW and then the 7 iron if I remember correctly. That is, all the clubs you hit "down" with..Or at least the clubs I hit down with.

im a pretty aggressive with my short irons, like to hit hard punch shots and Im pretty sure Graphite would break after a year or 2, especially if I went to the range a lot, no matter how good quality it is. Actually, the better the quality of the graphite the quicker it might break? Since better means more delicate, with thinner walls, when it comes to graphite shafts?

I also had a Callaway set before with stiff shafts and i broke those in the short irons too, and no, Im not a huge digger, but I do take a nice pretty long divot with my short irons.

Its no surprise that one of the few male pros hitting graphite is the rather weak bodied Colin Montgomerie that has a swing almost totally dependent on smooth timing. And it might not be a total accident that he looks at least 10 years older than he really is? :atsg_smilie_pot:

ha ha! I forgot about monty, what graphite shafts does he play in his irons?

I wish I could provide more feedback when it comes to durability, I've had a driver shaft break but never a graphite iron shaft. The walls are very thick in graphite iron shafts even in the tip section, much much thicker than steel but for sure steel would handle a beating better.

[Goodsie]

How about durability? The newer graphite shafts are getting ever more glass particles in them, and every time you read about high end graphite shafts, its mentioned how "brittle" and sensitive they are..I had a set of Wilsons with graphite shafts in stiff when I started out and kept breaking them just above the hosel, first the PW and then the 7 iron if I remember correctly. That is, all the clubs you hit "down" with..Or at least the clubs I hit down with.

im a pretty aggressive with my short irons, like to hit hard punch shots and Im pretty sure Graphite would break after a year or 2, especially if I went to the range a lot, no matter how good quality it is. Actually, the better the quality of the graphite the quicker it might break? Since better means more delicate, with thinner walls, when it comes to graphite shafts?

I also had a Callaway set before with stiff shafts and i broke those in the short irons too, and no, Im not a huge digger, but I do take a nice pretty long divot with my short irons.

Its no surprise that one of the few male pros hitting graphite is the rather weak bodied Colin Montgomerie that has a swing almost totally dependent on smooth timing. And it might not be a total accident that he looks at least 10 years older than he really is? :atsg_smilie_pot:

Just as a point of interest on the early days of Graphite Irons Shafts.....If the inside of the upper lip of the hosel was not beveled properly, the Shaft had a tendency to get eaten into by the sharp edge of the hosel and breaking down the Carbon layers which eventually would snap. It really wasn't the fault of the Graphite Shaft but more of a design and assembly deficiency by the OEM. Early day hosels in Irons were flat at the top and ended up being a big "NoNo" for Graphite Iron Shafts. Now all hosels are beveled and the problem has mainly disappeared for Graphite Iron Shafts. Graphite Shafts, in general, are very strong in the lateral plane but are suspect in the vertical plane. Even most of this has been corrected with a stronger tube on which the carbon sheets are placed.

But, your point about more glass being introduced into the tip section is definitely a good one and is changing the landscape again by these exotic big " Ton" Graphite Shafts and their fragile nature.

[Goodsie]

This is a Notice that I now include with all Graphite Shafts when they leave the Shop but its mainly directed to the Shafts with Glass Particles in the Tip Section.

Divot Doctor's "Do's and Don'ts" for Graphite Shafts.

1. Don't use the Shaft as a Cane or a Prop when bending over to Tee Up.

2. Don't be a "Club Thumper" when in your Pre Shot Routine or when you don't hit an ideal Tee ball.

3. Be especially careful when loading your Clubs in the Boot or Trunk as the long Driver Shaft may hit the side of the Trunk and damage the Tip Section. Same care is necessary when Unloading your Clubs also.

4. Don't hit Graphite Shafts (especially the Exotics) off of Synthetic Mats as most of these Mats are on top of Asphalt bases and are not very forgiving and can cause Tip damage if you Fat one.

5. When traveling (airlines, mainly), get yourself a "hard" travel bag for your Clubs. Often, I turn my Driver, 3 Wood upside down in the Bag before packing but that doesn't always keep the Airline personnel from trying new torture tests for your Golf Clubs.

[Kiwitown]

I thought this was interesting. Its a video on graphite shafts fitted to retail golf clubs versus the real deal Shaft..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szSwodaqfpw&feature=player_embedded#at=140

[Mjr. D]

Nice vid!

[Kiwitown]

Nice vid!

thanks for getting that up :)

[khgolf]

I am real curious now after reading this where do shafts like the aerotech steelfiber shafts fall? I had them in my epon 502's and really liked them but the flight was what I thought was to high. Since then I have tried 950S, 1150S, S400 and my last one this week was TT black Gold. The main reason I'm interested is now after playing the BG shaft I can hardly lift my right arm cause my elbow is sore and swollen like tennis elbow. I don't remember having this issue with the aerotech's.

I guess what I am really want to know by going back to aerotech shafts what do I give up or gain? dispersion, distance...

[Hamkenstein]

If you know your EXACT shaft profile as opposed to one you're relatively happy with, are you going to get the ultimate custom fit one off profile manufactured in steel or graphite given that (and I'm guessing here) steel will be considerably more expensive. I'm thinking along the lines of one off profiling being the next stage in true custom fitting and graphite is the only way you can keep the costs feasible going forward. Just a thought, is anyone out there producing Boron iron shafts ala Diamana Stinger? Would be an exciting experiment if you could stomache the cost. By the way anyone still using a steel shaft in their driver (or even fairway metal)?