Less is More! Smaller Driver Heads

[Jerry in China]

i am not trying to attack anyone, but just wanna put up a basic fact. Yes, big head has its commercial value, but even on the tour, most of the good players are using big heads. Maybe not 460 big, but at least 440 big. When i say most, means 9?%. So, big head helps a lot. Let not put it in the way that only average player needs big head. Its our ego to say small is better player, and we use small head, so we good.

I am using blade. And I know that it is because I can handle it and I want to show off. In fact, cavity back helps a lot more, and will get me a better score.

[gus]

My verdict on "bigger is better" still remains to be seen, I really want to try a MODERN well engineered smaller head with many of the features found in larger volume drivers before I pass ultimate judgement. I realize that shaft technology has bridged the gap quite a bit and maybe a larger profile is indeed the way to go but I'm a tactial creature and need to find this out for myself. Another MAJOR arguement for a smaller driver with a shorter shaft is uniformity in the bag, the progression from hybrid to fairway is smooth then out comes this 45-46inch toaster and it simply doesn't jive. I will site modern fairway woods as a perfect example, I can peel my 152cc 42.5' 16.5* Exotics 4 wood darn near as far as my driver with far greater consistancy. Now you are telling me that 2 more inches of overall shaft length and 200cc's plus in volume can not accomplish even more?? As Chris has mentioned, there's a reason the Jspec brands are offering there touring pro's these smaller options, my guess is ball speed, consistancy and feel...BB

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigBen

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Lot's of great feedback here, yes on tour 440-460 is the norm. In Japan more pro players are moving to sub 400cc drivers. It's not the majority but there is a shift occurring.

What I heard Ben say was that he really want's to try a MODERN smaller head with all the tech bells and whistles, good news is this is your year. I will be doing the same so if you want to follow along at the same time and provide your findings while I report mine that's cool, or you can wait to hear my opinion then decide.

I will say that any frequent poster who want's to take part in this will get a solid discount on that small headed purchase.

[jamnguy1]

The research that came out in the past that I saw showed that the advantage of 460cc drivers over sub-400cc drivers was in forgiveness. Also research shows and no one doubts that a longer shaft will increase head and ball speed for the same ball strike. Of course, if you cannot hit the sweet spot, it does not matter what driver you use and you will lose serious distance.

I think one can make an analogy to players and game-improvement irons. Golf is a psychological game, and the appearance of equipment to a particular player can have a significant effect. It took me a while to go from a 390cc (Miura MD390) driver to a 460cc driver. But the forgiveness characteristic of a 460cc driver cannot be denied, and it has allowed many players to use a longer shaft. A longer shaft usually means longer distance (assuming you can control the longer shaft). The average driver shaft length used to be 44" but it is now 45" because of the larger head. Now it has become 46" for some drivers and that's due to companies marketing that they are making the longest driving drivers out there.

As a side note, even at the PGA show this year, Boccieri Golf is marketing a "Heavy Driver." The total weight is 375g. The claim is that lighter weight drivers can cause loss of control and thus reduce driver distance. So a heavy driver will actually improve distance despite all research to show that lighter weight drivers increase clubhead speed. It's all marketing and it depends on what angle you are looking at.

The basic concepts are still that:

1. A well struck ball will go further than a poorly struck one

2. A larger driver head is more forgiving than a smaller one

3. A longer shaft will provide more clubhead speed than a shorter one

[gus]

All excellent feedback and I will add one more thought, this game is one heck of a lot easier from the fairway, if you add bad distance let's say 20yrs into the tall grass next to the woods it will not help the scorecard very much and last I checked the scorecard doesn't lie. Chris fire me a PM with driver options in the 2011 lineups, one's which offer 10 degree heads or even greater in custom trim and I will purchase one for sure. I have a number of solid drivers moving forward including US Burner 2.0 TP, Tileist 910 D3 and Callaway Razr Hawk Tour to review against, if I find that a smaller headed driver benefits me vs these modern 2011 larger headed models (interesting that not all of them are 460cc's) that's all the proof I need. I would be happy to do a full driver shootout with pictures...BB

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigBen

[jamnguy1]

All excellent feedback and I will add one more thought, this game is one heck of a lot easier from the fairway, if you add bad distance let's say 20yrs into the tall grass next to the woods it will not help the scorecard very much and last I checked the scorecard doesn't lie. Chris fire me a PM with driver options in the 2011 lineups, one's which offer 10 degree heads or even greater in custom trim and I will purchase one for sure. I have a number of solid drivers moving forward including US Burner 2.0 TP, Tileist 910 D3 and Callaway Razr Hawk Tour to review against, if I find that a smaller headed driver benefits me vs these new-comer larger headed models that's all the proof I personally need...BB

I think if you can maintain your concentration for 18 holes and put in a good drive, it doesn't matter what size head you use. A smaller head may force you to concentrate harder and that might not be a bad thing. For accuracy, there's no doubt a shorter shaft length will help a great deal.

[Above_Beyond]

This has been a great discussion guys! Thanks for all the input!

[ant]

i think the crowd here are golf gear enthusiasts who appreciate well designed and made clubs. we all love better scores no doubt about that but some people also appreciate true blade feel, looks etc and prefer less forgiving clubs for those reasons, they, plain and simple, just enjoy hitting them and looking at them and all that even if it means those clubs have less margin for error. make those guys play for a living and club choices for alot of them might shift towards more margin for error clubs but since we do something else for a living and play for pure joy of it we might just as well play whatever gear gives us most fun. if i had to play for real money i would use all the help i can get from golf gear.

i am not trying to attack anyone, but just wanna put up a basic fact. Yes, big head has its commercial value, but even on the tour, most of the good players are using big heads. Maybe not 460 big, but at least 440 big. When i say most, means 9?%. So, big head helps a lot. Let not put it in the way that only average player needs big head. Its our ego to say small is better player, and we use small head, so we good.

I am using blade. And I know that it is because I can handle it and I want to show off. In fact, cavity back helps a lot more, and will get me a better score.

[ant]

if your 3w and driver distance is roughly the same or close enough, which the case for alot of folks, get on a launch monitor and figure out why that is. if you are making a solid contact with your driver there is a good chance you are hitting down on your driver just like you do on your 3w and that would kill your driver distance. we are talking about something like 40 yards possibly. adding couple of inches of shaft length aint gonna help with that, wont even be in a ballpark.

it simply doesn't jive. I will site modern fairway woods as a perfect example, I can peel my 152cc 42.5' 16.5* Exotics 4 wood darn near as far as my driver with far greater consistancy. Now you are telling me that 2 more inches of overall shaft length and 200cc's plus in volume can not accomplish even more??

[gus]

I hit my 4 wood 255ish and my driver 265i-275sh carry and I'm pretty maxed out for my numbers. I play the tips at both home courses from 6800-7100yrs depending on tees and I'm plenty long for the terrain. I play between a 2-4 handicap depending on putting and my numbers are 108-110mph swingspeed with driver, 1900-2100rpm's depending on equipment with a 13* initial launch angle, all in all not that bad however because of my spin numbers I can actually increase initial launch to almost 16* without loosing roll, this is why my 4 wood is long...BB

Edited February 14, 2011 by BigBen

[ant]

i actually subscribe to this pov as well and not just for drivers, all other clubs too, except the putter ;) while its true that lighter can be swung faster the problem with lightweight clubs to me is that they dont feel like swinging them. and we're talking total club weight not just swing weight. heavier clubs to me promote more solid swinging action. lighter clubs are harder to feel if you like and also just too easy to manipulate and to me thats bad. maybe a good ball striker can get away with lighter weight because of how much their swing is grooved and how much they constantly practice and how their feel is much more developed but i found it hard to believe that anybody out there gaining lots of distance from lighter clubs, we are probably talking about a few yards at best, right ? honestly dunno, havent seen any comparisons on that. sure some folks feel weight differently than others, some folks use lighter grips and some grip them harder so in the end of the day its all personal. i guess manufacturers just trying to squeeze some more distance little bit here, little bit there, and marketing just spins that as next big thing which is basically their job really. new thing now seems to be driver club head aerodynamic optimizations.

As a side note, even at the PGA show this year, Boccieri Golf is marketing a "Heavy Driver." The total weight is 375g. The claim is that lighter weight drivers can cause loss of control and thus reduce driver distance. So a heavy driver will actually improve distance despite all research to show that lighter weight drivers increase clubhead speed. It's all marketing and it depends on what angle you are looking at.

[ant]

not bad? i think you got great numbers right there! i agree that you are pretty much maxed out. the only way to get more distance by any substantial number would be increasing club head speed, that is if you need more distance, which you probably dont.

I hit my 4 wood 255ish and my driver 265i-275sh carry and I'm pretty maxed out for my numbers. I play the tips at both home courses from 6800-7100yrs depending on tees and I'm plenty long for the terrain. I play between a 2-4 handicap depending on putting and my numbers are 108-110mph swingspeed with driver, 1900-2100rpm's depending on equipment with a 13* initial launch angle, all in all not that bad however because of my spin numbers I can actually increase initial launch to almost 16* without loosing roll, this is why my 4 wood is long...BB

[jamnguy1]

i actually subscribe to this pov as well and not just for drivers, all other clubs too, except the putter ;) while its true that lighter can be swung faster the problem with lightweight clubs to me is that they dont feel like swinging them. and we're talking total club weight not just swing weight. heavier clubs to me promote more solid swinging action. lighter clubs are harder to feel if you like and also just too easy to manipulate and to me thats bad. maybe a good ball striker can get away with lighter weight because of how much their swing is grooved and how much they constantly practice and how their feel is much more developed but i found it hard to believe that anybody out there gaining lots of distance from lighter clubs, we are probably talking about a few yards at best, right ? honestly dunno, havent seen any comparisons on that. sure some folks feel weight differently than others, some folks use lighter grips and some grip them harder so in the end of the day its all personal. i guess manufacturers just trying to squeeze some more distance little bit here, little bit there, and marketing just spins that as next big thing which is basically their job really. new thing now seems to be driver club head aerodynamic optimizations.

A properly weighted club makes a huge difference for the right person. It allows one to have a sense or feel where the clubhead is in space during the swing. It allows for proper swing path and also proper release. One can always swing a lighter club faster, but at some point the gains in clubhead speed is outweighed by inaccuracy. If the club is too heavy, it has the same problem as a club that is too light. A heavier club also has a higher moment of inertia, and statistically will hit the ball further. However, this is minimal. Testing done shows that the greatest gains in length is due to clubhead speed, and this is achieved through lighter clubs. But this is up to a point and one WILL lose distance and accuracy if the club is too light. What is too heavy or too light depends on the person making the swing.

No clear research that I have seen, but club head aerodynamics optimizations have not shown to be a big advantage. Last year, Williams from formula car racing fame started making clubs, the driver in particular, with claims that they know all about aerodynamics. The gains I think are nonexistent or minimal at best. But manufacturers just have to keep on trying and try to push the envelope. With the rules limiting size to 460cc and COR to 0.83, manufacturers have to be creative in club head design as to material, MOI (mainly for forgiveness), placement of the COG. The one big area that I think can give one a significant advantage for increasing distance which is not restricted by the USGA and R&A is having the right shaft.

[gus]

not bad? i think you got great numbers right there! i agree that you are pretty much maxed out. the only way to get more distance by any substantial number would be increasing club head speed, that is if you need more distance, which you probably dont.

Thank you, I've worked really hard at this crazy game for many years, I'm getting older (42) and really feel maxed out on my swingspeeds so distance "maintenance" will need to come from well fit equipment and improved ball stricking. I did absolutely agree with your initial post, many people struggle with the transition between fairway to driver. It always seems like mid-cappers either have one or the other but seldum confident with both. Another topic to debate all together but I think the average player needs to consider more loft, no need to basically have 2 drivers in the bag, why stuggle off the deck. I strongly suggest giving 4 woods a shot, the shafts tend to be shorter (here we go again!) and they are much easier to launch and control. Also it's my personal opinion that the current trend in equipment (clubs, shafts and balls) is spin reduction (not only backspin but sidespin as well) making added initial launch a must to reap the rewards in design...BB

Edited February 15, 2011 by BigBen

[jamnguy1]

Professional players have all the distance they need, and they often work on accuracy to improve their game. They often play with 44" to 44.5" shaft lengths for the driver. They would also play with smaller driver heads if those were made by the companies that sponsor them. If you ever see the ball marks on a pro driver head, it looks as if they hit in an area the size of a Susan B. Anthony dollar. For the amateur, the ball marks are everywhere on the face. For the vast majority of us players who play golf as a hobby, a 460cc driver makes sense. IMO, going to a longer shaft makes less sense to try to get more distance for a regular joe golfer.

[ant]

some pros hit down on their drivers, like Tiger for example. never seen his exact numbers and not sure what hes doing now but seen some super slomo footage of him in the past and he was clearly hitting down on it. pretty sure its deliberate tho, hes fully aware about loosing distance but just doesnt care about it because with that much of club speed he can get away with it and still hit it a mile.

Thank you, I've worked really hard at this crazy game for many years, I'm getting older (42) and really feel maxed out on my swingspeeds so distance "maintenance" will need to come from well fit equipment and improved ball stricking. I did absolutely agree with your initial post, many people struggle with the transition between fairway to driver. It always seems like mid-cappers either have one or the other but seldum confident with both. Another topic to debate all together but I think the average player needs to consider more loft, no need to basically have 2 drivers in the bag, why stuggle off the deck. I strongly suggest giving 4 woods a shot, the shafts tend to be shorter (here we go again!) and they are much easier to launch and control. Also it's my personal opinion that the current trend in equipment (clubs, shafts and balls) is spin reduction (not only backspin but sidespin as well) making added initial launch a must to reap the rewards in design...BB

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Professional players have all the distance they need, and they often work on accuracy to improve their game. They often play with 44" to 44.5" shaft lengths for the driver. They would also play with smaller driver heads if those were made by the companies that sponsor them. If you ever see the ball marks on a pro driver head, it looks as if they hit in an area the size of a Susan B. Anthony dollar. For the amateur, the ball marks are everywhere on the face. For the vast majority of us players who play golf as a hobby, a 460cc driver makes sense. IMO, going to a longer shaft makes less sense to try to get more distance for a regular joe golfer.

I somewhat agree but keep in mind that shafts like Quadra FireExpress & Crazy reduce shaft deformation bringing the club head to square very quickly. 46" Crazy = big big distance!

[Blader-X]

For me its all about the feel of the club first and the look that inspires me second. I've really never had a problem with the "big" look of a 460 head. And with the feel that Epon provides I'll hit that club all day long. Should a smaller head give me even more feel while achieving the same results I'm getting now, I'd definitely take a look at the smaller heads. But for me I've been playing long enough to know what works for me. I did take what others say and try to interpret how it might work for me but I'm lucky in that I do know what will work and what won't. I think that just comes with getting older and gaining the experience.

As far as driver shaft lengths, 45.75" is ideal for me. I've tried 44" and I even gone as far as 46.5", but 45.75" is perfect. It really does come down to what works for you. How do you find out? Trial and error, . . . trial and error.

These slighter smaller heads do intrigue me though, and I may just have to give them a look.

[jamnguy1]

I somewhat agree but keep in mind that shafts like Quadra FireExpress & Crazy reduce shaft deformation bringing the club head to square very quickly. 46" Crazy = big big distance!

I'm playing a crazy shaft. Played the quadra too, but I think the crazy shaft is better for me.

[FatMan]

Back to the smaller driver heads portion of this discussion. If my memory serves me correctly, manufacturing designs & materials of the sub-460cc heads are generally geared more toward the faster swinging athlete golfers.

Unless they come out with one made for the slower swinger, I'm starting to doubt that I would be able to reap any potential benefits from going smaller...

[supo]

For me its all about the feel of the club first and the look that inspires me second. I've really never had a problem with the "big" look of a 460 head. And with the feel that Epon provides I'll hit that club all day long. Should a smaller head give me even more feel while achieving the same results I'm getting now, I'd definitely take a look at the smaller heads. But for me I've been playing long enough to know what works for me. I did take what others say and try to interpret how it might work for me but I'm lucky in that I do know what will work and what won't. I think that just comes with getting older and gaining the experience.

As far as driver shaft lengths, 45.75" is ideal for me. I've tried 44" and I even gone as far as 46.5", but 45.75" is perfect. It really does come down to what works for you. How do you find out? Trial and error, . . . trial and error.

These slighter smaller heads do intrigue me though, and I may just have to give them a look.

i agree with trial and error. my perfect length is now 45' .

i thought it was 44.75 , but i found i like to have a small AK esque choke down the shaft a bit and 45 is my length, if i go shorter i snap it.

i like the comfort factor the 460cc gives me most days. but if im driving really well then the 425 is the better option ive found. i wont have just one driver. i need to have a cpl of differnt types, shapes, and styles. shafts and heads included. IN JP , ill take about 3 with me and on the range b4 the match which ever one i hit best goes in the bag , regadless of what it is. sometimes its a roddio/onoff combo like in the monthly comp last yr , i came 2nd . i havnt hit it since, but that day,, it was perfect. when im driving consistantly well tho , the smaller head will usually get the nod.

[skippercarey]

Lot's of great feedback here, yes on tour 440-460 is the norm. In Japan more pro players are moving to sub 400cc drivers. It's not the majority but there is a shift occurring.

What I heard Ben say was that he really want's to try a MODERN smaller head with all the tech bells and whistles, good news is this is your year. I will be doing the same so if you want to follow along at the same time and provide your findings while I report mine that's cool, or you can wait to hear my opinion then decide.

I will say that any frequent poster who want's to take part in this will get a solid discount on that small headed purchase.

apart from this yonex 390 coming out and the miura 390 what other JDM drivers are there that are 400cc and less?

[ant]

that is my understanding as well. there might be exceptions to this due to the latest materials and designs but generally smaller head is tougher and needs more speed to cause sufficient face, and in some designs ?body?, deflection to minimize energy loss on impact.

Back to the smaller driver heads portion of this discussion. If my memory serves me correctly, manufacturing designs & materials of the sub-460cc heads are generally geared more toward the faster swinging athlete golfers.

Unless they come out with one made for the slower swinger, I'm starting to doubt that I would be able to reap any potential benefits from going smaller...

[jamnguy1]

Back to the smaller driver heads portion of this discussion. If my memory serves me correctly, manufacturing designs & materials of the sub-460cc heads are generally geared more toward the faster swinging athlete golfers.

Unless they come out with one made for the slower swinger, I'm starting to doubt that I would be able to reap any potential benefits from going smaller...

In the same way player's irons are geared towards the better golfer. But it's primarily in appearance and workability. Workability can also be built in a 435, 440 or 460cc head as well. Tourstage x-drive and the Crazy drivers that are 435+ cc are very workable. Even when I look at a 435cc driver, it does not look terribly smaller than a 460cc driver like a sub-400cc driver does.

[ant]

i wonder if anybody here can recall what kinda volume persimmon drivers had and then the very first ones metal woods ? must have been around 200cc or something like that.