Making the switch...

[Above_Beyond]

i also think the "dont have the technology or know how" is a little hilarious.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Notice that better players clubs for just about every brand are one piece built while the more forgiving models are all 2 piece or more. Callaway, Honma, Yamaha, Epon, PRGR, Srixon, XXIO, Yonex, Mizuno, Maruman, PING, etc...

It's not a coincidence that 99% of brands do this. The two piece structure's such as a soft forged S20 or S25C body with say a SAE8655 high repulsion face are not only more forgiving but the faces are even hotter. Some brands use 3 piece or more as well.

Multi piece or multi piece cavity design is more forgiving. This is a common fact to the designers. Similar to undercut cavity designs creating more forgiveness.

In our Proshop you can read to compare the differences between the MB/Players CB irons vs more forgiving clubs. Its mentioned many times in the GTI blog as well.

You may also go to Golf Galaxy, Edwin Watts, and TGW online and do the same description reading, to see that its becoming industry standard.

In regards to Miura, I know I sound like a Miura hater at times and I will openly say we do sell a lot of it. They can only produce 1 piece. They don't produce their own toolings as it needs to be outsourced, Spin welded heads are not produced in a 2 piece design anywhere in Japan, They don't do chem or plasma welding to attach the various parts, so thats why I say there is a lack of technology or know how to create multi piece designs.

Not bashing on them as same goes for Kyoei and the majority of Himeji factories as well.

It takes some major knowledge to accomplish this. Himeji is very mom and pop's style, It's not all high tech like Endo or some of the Chinese factories.

[gocchin]

Forgiveness is certainly subjective but there is no denying that technology and designs have a huge effect on how easy an iron can be to hit.

Chris mentioned 2 piece irons but in fact, in Japan, some of the most high tech average golfer models consist of many pieces even up to 7 pieces (an honor shared by the Tourstage ViQ and Yonex NanoV Nextage)

In the end a lot comes down to personal preference, what works for an individual and what that individual is willing to pay.

1 piece, 2 piece, 7 piece, Kyoei forged, Endo forged, China forged, for some people it makes no difference and for some people it means a lot.

In the end its great to have choices, traditional ones, high tech ones, cheap ones, expensive ones. Something for every player and budget.

[Shambles]

To be very clear, the two or more peice iron clubhead is very new to me and I am not attracted to the idea, but only because it seems a weakness. I'm fairly certain the OEM's who do this have engineers who know it's strong enough but my unqualified and uneducated feeling is that it might give. I do theorize that multiple peices can be easier to assemble as a complicated final form than a single casting or forging, but thats about as far as I can see in that matter.

So far I see statements that they are also forgiving, but no data for me to try to understand. Would anybody have a link to something more than simple declarations ?

Shambles

[+TourSpecGolfer]

To be very clear, the two or more peice iron clubhead is very new to me and I am not attracted to the idea, but only because it seems a weakness. I'm fairly certain the OEM's who do this have engineers who know it's strong enough but my unqualified and uneducated feeling is that it might give. I do theorize that multiple peices can be easier to assemble as a complicated final form than a single casting or forging, but thats about as far as I can see in that matter.

So far I see statements that they are also forgiving, but no data for me to try to understand. Would anybody have a link to something more than simple declarations ?

Shambles

There's really no real assembly required when it comes to single piece casting or forging.

In regards to multi piece designs:

- Hollow heads are known to add forgiveness

- Inside a hollow head you can add extra and internal perimeter weighting or use weight to manipulate the CG location

- The face they usually connect to the body may feature higher COR or properties that make it more forgiving

outside of that I really don't know why else, It's actually a more expensive process as well. It costs more for Epon to produce the 502 and 702 vs the 302 because of the multi piece design.

[Above_Beyond]

The argument just doesnt hold. It makes no sense that a n-peice iron for any n >1 could ever outperform a 1 piece forging which has been hammered multiple times. The temperament which is achieved by heating, hammering, heating, hammering produces a tighter molecular density for a more consistent shot dispersion for both the low and high player

[Shambles]

TourSpecGolfer,

I can accept that the various designs you mentioned are intended to add to the utility of a club but their individual effect is not necessarily worth the trouble or the cost, unless you are dealing with a player on the border. Forgiveness, the various aspects of it, in any case, exists is design and size. Size is more important as evidence the golf boom that came when Ping's humongous eye 2's came on the market. The only thing left of the eye 2's these days is a reduction to mid size category and no longer a giant in the field. Ping didn't grow smaller, the other clubs grew bigger.

Try adding lead or tungsten to an iron and you'll quickly see how much is needed to affect COG, Draw or Fade. The design does almost all of that and the user can only adjust for comfort. In a tiny head, the effect is even more invisible. However, if we could change offset and nothing else, we would see the Draw and Fade characteristics change dramatically for very little change. COG requires a redistribution of the entire head material.

The only thing I can see in multi peice construction is the possibility of a more complicated design but the major players have long been identified.

Shambles

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The argument just doesnt hold. It makes no sense that a n-peice iron for any n >1 could ever outperform a 1 piece forging which has been hammered multiple times. The temperament which is achieved by heating, hammering, heating, hammering produces a tighter molecular density for a more consistent shot dispersion for both the low and high player

It holds completely. And this isn't "my" argument. it is simply the science of golf club design.

So let's not debate this with me because you can do no convincing on my side. All you need to do is reference 99% of the OEM's. Call them if you have to with your questions.

Also heating hammering and heating is more about feel not forgiveness. It's a great but very ancient process.

This is about supporting above_beyond and shambles. I have no agenda to be right in this matter.

The proof is clear for everyone to see. Simply take a look at how the top companies are producing their more forgiving golf clubs.

Sorry guy's if you don't trust the market, myself, gocchin. In fact Tom Wishon is sold on this to, read his book and look at his designs.

Maybe it would support you if I quote him:

- Thinner, Beta-Titanium face design allows even more weight to be removed from the face than is possible with a 6/4 Ti face to be positioned on the toe and heel areas to increase the MOI of the head for even better off-center hit performance

- Slightly oversize head shape and profile automatically increases the MOI over more traditional iron head sizes to add even more to the off-center hit capability

- face profile allows a larger face area to increase the size of the Beta-Ti face and the ability of the face to flex more to offer a higher COR for the highest possible ball velocity

To that I would also like to add you can't produce an oversized 1 piece solid forged head because it's waaaaay to heavy.

If it didn't work or wasn't worth the cost it wouldn't be industry standard, they wouldn't invest millions into this technology. Just do your homework gents its golf club design 101.

[Above_Beyond]

I believe what you described there was a tennis racquet...

Haha, sigh.. yes industry standard for oh so many reasons - cheaper, easier, inexpensive componentry, rapid assembly

Im confused why a forged club cant heavily weight the toe and heel.

Sure an oversized forging could weigh a great deal, but I dont think the discussion was about oversized irons. Simply irons for the mid-capper looking to tighten up the game.

In which case dispersion is absolutely synonymous for forgiveness.

Multipeice irons are junk, they allow people to cover up the flaws of an ugly swing by strapping a trampoline to a stick and letting a crap swing produce indifferent results.

Get some clubs that provide feedback and consistency, then work on your game and improve.

Do the work gents... on the range..

No agenda here either..

[+TourSpecGolfer]

nooo.. multi piece are not junk, they are just as good as single piece just for a different type of player... like me...:)

A single one piece club can only be weighted by tungsten insert or mass in a certain area. Which is cool and all but doesn't provide enough size or parameter weighting to have it make a vast difference in improving forgiveness.

multi piece is better technology, single piece is more purest. lets not discriminate as different players have different desires.

** BTW I set your posts to moderator approval as it's starting to become more about being right than supporting our members **

FYI - YOUR most recent purchase in the TSG Proshop the Yonex Zero iron is a multi piece "forged S25C Carbon body with a high strength SAE spring steel face."

[ant]

looks like bringing Tom Wishon didnt ring a bell, oh well...

[Above_Beyond]

thats an interesting way of winning an debate. Censor the other guy :)

I dont suppose this post will make its way onto the board so adieu to this forum and TSG.

[Duffer19]

As the Chinese would say, this is a waste of gas. For the rest of us, it is the wider sole and pocket cavity with tungsten insert over the one piece stamp cavity and over mult stamp blade for forgiveness. Low handicapper doesn't seem to understand there is a larger golf population/universe out there that are playing to mid to high teens instead playing thosw less forgiving clubs for its workability and feel. We are not pro and do not pretend to be. I would gladly give up some feel for forgiveness. For me now its my Callaway Legacy forged (2 to 3 piece) over my previous Miura cb201 over my even older Mizuno T Zoid Pro.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

thats an interesting way of winning an debate. Censor the other guy :)

I dont suppose this post will make its way onto the board so adieu to this forum and TSG.

I understand and appreciate your participation during your time here. I think you will be a valuable member at WRX or the many other forum's on the web.

Fairways and greens to you sir and good luck in the game of life.

[zwan]

Forgiveness is certainly subjective but there is no denying that technology and designs have a huge effect on how easy an iron can be to hit.

Chris mentioned 2 piece irons but in fact, in Japan, some of the most high tech average golfer models consist of many pieces even up to 7 pieces (an honor shared by the Tourstage ViQ and Yonex NanoV Nextage)

In the end a lot comes down to personal preference, what works for an individual and what that individual is willing to pay.

1 piece, 2 piece, 7 piece, Kyoei forged, Endo forged, China forged, for some people it makes no difference and for some people it means a lot.

In the end its great to have choices, traditional ones, high tech ones, cheap ones, expensive ones. Something for every player and budget.

Well spoken, Tario, well spoken!

[jamnguy1]

There's really no real assembly required when it comes to single piece casting or forging.

In regards to multi piece designs:

- Hollow heads are known to add forgiveness

- Inside a hollow head you can add extra and internal perimeter weighting or use weight to manipulate the CG location

- The face they usually connect to the body may feature higher COR or properties that make it more forgiving

outside of that I really don't know why else, It's actually a more expensive process as well. It costs more for Epon to produce the 502 and 702 vs the 302 because of the multi piece design.

This is really true. For forgiveness in a club head design, it is harder to achieve with a 1-piece and easier to achieve with a multi-piece design.

Heavier materials in the hosel and sole, perimeter weighing in a pocket cavity or hollow head, and face materials are some of the things that can be done. Much harder to achieve this with a 1-piece design.

When Karsten Ping came out with the cavity back by grinding out a blade, that was revolutionary for forgiveness. There are things that can be done with a 1-piece design, but there is a limit in terms of the physics and values that define forgiveness. The next level is with multipiece designs as so much more can be done. Of course, one would expect a multipiece design to cost more in manufacturing. "Performance" of a club head design ... that is not a measure synonymous with "forgiveness." Performance depends on the end user.

[Eca]

multiple piece, hollow design = frying pan

1piece blade = precision hammer

[jamnguy1]

multiple piece, hollow design = frying pan

1piece blade = precision hammer

For "feel," it would be quite a feat to beat a 1 piece blade and the right shaft with a multi-piece head design. The trade off is obviously forgiveness.

[noxon]

I'm back after my testing....and after reading through all the threads and the replies, I thought it'd be the responsible thing to first of all apologize for causing such a stir on the forum. My intentions when I first posted was to get some sound advice on some irons that I was considering. I apologize for the heated discussions that my questions had caused.

Now for my report back. I did find a set of Miura's here in Taipei and after a good weekend, I have to say that I am settling on the original OnOff Forged. For me, an improving player wanting to move towards a more "pure" blade type feel, but still NEEDING the forgiveness, I think my best choice will be the OnOff's.

Thanks TSG and everyone else for the gread advice and suggestions. I'm glad you guys are the source for these types of questions.

....hopefully, I can start asking about a new driver!! ;-)

Thanks again!

[supo]

did some one say ...................

drivers????????

[noxon]

did some one say ...................

drivers????????

haha.....yes....but now I need to save up for this ;-)

[swing981]

I think there are better options for the mid handicap player then miura...