Inflexible JDM brands

[Vegaman]

Hello all

Im having some real problems here..Are your irons stock when it somes to lie? Ive noticed that most JDM irons are about 1 degree flatter than US/EU market stuff..Ive been fitted with a lie board last summer and need 3 degrees upright, and that was with a stock 6 iron at 62.5 degrees, whereas a typical JDM 6 iron is 61.5 or even 61..I have been through a bit of a swing change, keeping my hands lower through impact, so i might get away with 3 degrees up from JDM spec.

And no, Im not some freak. Im 192cm tall (around 6.4?) with maybe not monkey long arms, but not unusually short ones either..

I wanna buy some nice blades, been ready to pull the trigger on the yururi flat backs is satin. Ok, I know that pure blades are a bit flatter "by design" but to not even be able to get it done to the max (in yururis case 1.5 degrees) before sending them to a customer?

Ive been in contact with Tario and I cant order Yururis with an upright lie..Almost no brand apparently, which is weird since i thought that buying JDM "speicalist stuff" was all about "custom specs" and flexibility..Tarios hands are tied apparently, Yururi refuses do do any adjustments, got it confirmed in a mail from them. They said I might be able to bend them 1.5 degree, but of course that would void all future claims/warranty..I think its ridiculous that I can go on any discount website and order OEM clubs with lie up or down bla bla, but a specialist small operation japanese clubmaker cant!?

TSGs main focus seems to be the north american market, and to not being able to get clubs lie adjusted is very 1985 in my book..I guess all pros playing yururi is born looking identical, like some weird army of twins.

To sum up: I cant buy ANY forged blades that are my spec on TSG! I have to bend stuff myself..Its like buying an armani suit and being told to finish up the arm length myself, I pay EXTRA for what most people would consider to be a luxury choice, to get LESS service.. Isnt it weird?

Christian

Edited April 18, 2011 by Vegaman

[Eca]

I didn't know & that is very surprising. I also thought JDM is all about custom fit clubs.

[supo]

ir u order kyoei u can get any thing u want, they are preposterously slow

but the specs come in anyway u want.

but ur right everyother thing ive bought is stock spec i do the bending my self when needed.

kyoei is ur best bet, and they are prettytasty clubs

i think miura will do any spec u like as well.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

It's not that they can't they just don't want to.

Thats the uber conservative approach the JDM OEM's take. I don't play by that book, like stew say's go get it bent aftermarket.

Ask your clubmaker to apply heat and be gentle with it. I've bent a whole bunch of JDM clubs some 4* flat some 4* upright, I've bent drivers and UT's as well. If it breaks it's on you but I can say I've never had anything break on me.

After your done having it bent check the lofts again.

Miura & Kyoei will do it just be prepared to wait a long time.

[Kiwitown]

So Chris if we order through you guys are you able to get the lies adjusted before you ship them out or is it an area you don't want to get involved in?

[skippercarey]

Better off bending them yourself that way you can test them out and get it right, i think you will find most JDM irons are 1* flater as standard i bent mine 3* up and i normaly play 2*, i also changed to loft 1* stronger closer to the loft they play on tour now. Yes you can order upright lie angles from OEMs but id still be checking them along with loft, as we know attention to detail is not their strong suit. Im pretty sure you can order Epon at any spec?

[FatMan]

Epon can or used to up to a certain number of degrees. Can't remember exactly... was it 2*?

[Eca]

Better off bending them yourself that way you can test them out and get it right, i think you will find most JDM irons are 1* flater as standard i bent mine 3* up and i normaly play 2*, i also changed to loft 1* stronger closer to the loft they play on tour now. Yes you can order upright lie angles from OEMs but id still be checking them along with loft, as we know attention to detail is not their strong suit. Im pretty sure you can order Epon at any spec?

I agree. I ordered my mp68 2.5* flat from their standard. Played it for 4 months & doubted the lie angle. Had it checked & it was all over the joint. Had myself dynamically tested & it did come up that I needed 2.5 across but went an extra .5 with wedges.

I guess if ur meticulous with ur gear then you will always have some sort of doubt until you get it rechecked with ur club builder.

[supo]

juts getting a few sets of wedges flalttend 1.5* now for a range sesshy tonight .

hoping this improves my target practice.

[Vegaman]

Epon can or used to up to a certain number of degrees. Can't remember exactly... was it 2*?

Yeah, Epon may be more flexible. But Im neither American live in America or have a US address. Anyway, I really like the Yururis, and also the Kyoeis will see what I will do next.

Im VERY surpirsed Mizuno messed up by the way, thought they were pretty "serious" even though they are as big as they are. Too bad.

[gocchin]

Keep in mind pretty much ALL JDM manufacturers will adjust lie for customers. So this topic is a bit misleading as it makes it sound like no brand will adjust lie.

To make it clear Vegaman wants a very upright lie and for the models he's interested in and this can mean up to a 3-4* bend. (the models have pretty flat lies)

All brands have tolerances but they also have quality assurance they must deal with.

Epon will not bend more than 1.5*. Is it because the irons won't bend more than 1.5*? No. Its because they insist on a perfect finish and the amount of pressure needed to bend more can cause markings or imperfect finish.

Titleist will do 2* and their lies are rather upright. As I mentioned to Christian (Vegaman), Titleist Japan can meet the 64* 6 iron he wants with any of their forged irons.

Other brands also will bend but unfortunately their lies are pretty damn flat.

TSG's main focus is not just the North America market.

TSG's main focus is providing access to Japanese market clubs for customers worldwide.

But in the end these are Japanese market clubs designed for Japanese markets and Japanese golfers and in many and most cases it means flatter lies unfortunately when it comes to irons.

At 1.92m tall, you are taller than 99.5% of the Japanese golfing population. (^_^)

As Chris said there are small manufacturers who will do it.

I even had Kyoei regrind heads in the past for customers just so they could get heavier heads ie they made the 4 iron into the 3, 5 iron into the 4 etc... restamped them all and bent them to proper specs. BUT it took more than 3 months.

Still I don't think any discount shops online will do that. (^_^)

Unfortunately if Yururi won't bend the lie for you its not the end of the world and doesn't mean JDM brands are inflexible.

So there are options.

We'll find you something!

[Vegaman]

Keep in mind pretty much ALL JDM manufacturers will adjust lie for customers. So this topic is a bit misleading as it makes it sound like no brand will adjust lie.

To make it clear Vegaman wants a very upright lie and for the models he's interested in and this can mean up to a 3-4* bend. (the models have pretty flat lies)

All brands have tolerances but they also have quality assurance they must deal with.

Epon will not bend more than 1.5*. Is it because the irons won't bend more than 1.5*? No. Its because they insist on a perfect finish and the amount of pressure needed to bend more can cause markings or imperfect finish.

Titleist will do 2* and their lies are rather upright. As I mentioned to Christian (Vegaman), Titleist Japan can meet the 64* 6 iron he wants with any of their forged irons.

Other brands also will bend but unfortunately their lies are pretty damn flat.

TSG's main focus is not just the North America market.

TSG's main focus is providing access to Japanese market clubs for customers worldwide.

But in the end these are Japanese market clubs designed for Japanese markets and Japanese golfers and in many and most cases it means flatter lies unfortunately when it comes to irons.

At 1.92m tall, you are taller than 99.5% of the Japanese golfing population. (^_^)

As Chris said there are small manufacturers who will do it.

I even had Kyoei regrind heads in the past for customers just so they could get heavier heads ie they made the 4 iron into the 3, 5 iron into the 4 etc... restamped them all and bent them to proper specs. BUT it took more than 3 months.

Still I don't think any discount shops online will do that. (^_^)

Unfortunately if Yururi won't bend the lie for you its not the end of the world and doesn't mean JDM brands are inflexible.

So there are options.

We'll find you something!

Sounds good..BUT, I really like the lok of those Yururis! :tsg_smilie_smile2: I might, just might get them and bend'em. Even if its just the 1.5 to 2 degrees they recommend. Even though I would really like to get them already bent, at least the 2 degrees. Im not sure I know somebody I can trust to bend the heads here in Phuket, so I might have to go to Bangkok to have it done, which is a bit of a drag..

Ive been working on getting my hands a bit lower through the hitting area anyway, so the 2 degrees might suffice.

Another thing, why is it that we have to bend the irons all the time anyway? Cant they fix it during production? At the forging stage or rather straight after, when the steel is still a bit hot and before finish is done? For cast clubs I guess they have to do that, with different molds or something, because the steel is too brittle to bend safely. Im almost shocked that even Endo, ( for their epon stuff) which is such a High Tech manufacturer cant do it at the production stage, and limits the lie adjustability to a paltry 1.5 degrees. Amazing.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Vegaman

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Anyone can do it even a garage clubmaker with no training. Trust me any factory can do it but next to no one does it the right way.

The right way is removing the finish, bending and re grinding, then re-plating. Epon/Endo has done that in the past for us. What a pain that must have been.

It's super rare that people need 3*+ upright, especially in Japan. Combine that with the fact that they produce thousand's of wedges in a single production phase.

It's like asking Toyota to make a neon green car, of course they can do it but it's not worth the time for such a small market segment when that person can pay 10 bucks to have it done at their club makers shop.

[Vegaman]

Anyone can do it even a garage clubmaker with no training. Trust me any factory can do it but next to no one does it the right way.

The right way is removing the finish, bending and re grinding, then re-plating. Epon/Endo has done that in the past for us. What a pain that must have been.

It's super rare that people need 3*+ upright, especially in Japan. Combine that with the fact that they produce thousand's of wedges in a single production phase.

It's like asking Toyota to make a neon green car, of course they can do it but it's not worth the time for such a small market segment when that person can pay 10 bucks to have it done at their club makers shop.

Wedges? You mean irons I guess. Not sure I would compare Toyota, the master of mass production, with a comparatively small brand like Epon? In my world Epon is not in every other bag I see at golf courses..But every other car is a Toyota. I dont know what courses you play, but Yururi and Epon does NOT dominate where I play or ever have played. Toyota of the golfworld would be Taylormade..Or callaway or whatever other huge OEM you care to think of. Epon? That would be Lamborghini, Bugatti or Aston..And yes, I do think that Bugatti would oblige in painting a car in whatever colour the customer wants. Even Neon green.

Say what you want, going 2 degres up from US/EU standard lie (3 up from JDM) is not "super rare" at all. Rather common I would say. And for sure something that I would expect from a "boutiqe" maker like Epon.

I dont see why you have to try to defend the lack of customer service that I feel that Im experiencing. Epon make the best stuff, but to not offer more than 1.5 degree of adjustability sucks, and thats TOTAL fact.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Wedges? You mean irons I guess. Not sure I would compare Toyota, the master of mass production, with a comparatively small brand like Epon? In my world Epon is not in every other bag I see at golf courses..But every other car is a Toyota. I dont know what courses you play, but Yururi and Epon does NOT dominate where I play or ever have played. Toyota of the golfworld would be Taylormade..Or callaway or whatever other huge OEM you care to think of. Epon? That would be Lamborghini, Bugatti or Aston..And yes, I do think that Bugatti would oblige in painting a car in whatever colour the customer wants. Even Neon green.

Say what you want, going 2 degres up from US/EU standard lie (3 up from JDM) is not "super rare" at all. Rather common I would say. And for sure something that I would expect from a "boutiqe" maker like Epon.

I dont see why you have to try to defend the lack of customer service that I feel that Im experiencing. Epon make the best stuff, but to not offer more than 1.5 degree of adjustability sucks, and thats TOTAL fact.

My take on that is Epon's the brand, Endo is the manufacture. Toyota is producing hundreds or thousands of units per phase, Endo is producing hundreds or thousand's of unit's per phase. Taylormade is a brand not a manufacture. But if you don't like that analogy, that's fine.

I simply want you to understand that it's not a lack of customer service it's just an unreasonable request of a mass producer of golf clubs for such a small market segment when It's expected you get your adjustments made for you by a professional club fitter.

If 3* upright was common it would be offered in Japan. Lefty is a much bigger segment and we don't see JDM brand's catering to them for a similar reason.

Your solution is go to a club maker to have them bend it, if you want we can have it sent from Yururi or Epon to an aftermarket clubmaker in Japan for you. It would be cheaper to have it done in your own home town. It would also support you to have your loft/length/swing weight/grip size and the optimal shaft fitted for you at the same time as well.

I'm glad you think Epon makes the best stuff, I think Endo makes the best stuff and it varies between brand so I would have to give design praise to Yamaha and TourStage at this moment.

Let's remember that Epon, Yamaha, TourStage produce the design while Endo manufactures it.

[Vegaman]

My take on that was that Epon is the brand, Endo is the manufacture. Toyota is producing hundreds or thousands of units per phase, Endo is producing hundreds or thousand's of unit's per phase. Taylormade is a brand not a manufacture. But you don't like that analogy, that's fine.

I simply want you to understand that it's not a lack of customer service it's just an unreasonable request of a mass producer of golf clubs for such a small market segment when It's expected you get your adjustments made for you by a professional club fitter.

If 3* upright was common it would be offered in Japan. Lefty is a much bigger segment and we don't see JDM brand's catering to them for a similar reason.

Your solution is go to a club maker to have them bend it, if you want we can have it sent from Yururi or Epon to an aftermarket clubmaker in Japan for you. It would be cheaper to have it done in your own home town. It would also support you to have your loft/length/swing weight/grip size and the optimal shaft fitted for you at the same time as well.

I'm glad you think Epon makes the best stuff, I think Endo makes the best stuff and it varies between brand so I would have to give design praise to Yamaha and TourStage at this moment.

Let's remember that Epon, Yamaha, TourStage produce the design while Endo manufactures it.

Oh, yes. Endo is the manufacturer. Lets say the most advanced/respected one then. And I meant its not that unusal with 2 or even 3 degree upright lie in the US/EU, and NOT in japan. The average male in Sweden is 180cm tall, so not very exotic where Im from at all.

EDIT: Another thing, I intend to pull the heads from my current shafts and use them with the Yururis or whatever. I really like the NS Super Peenings, and just want to change the heads. Are the Yururi blades lighter than the average midsize club head?

Edited April 19, 2011 by Vegaman

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Thanks for understanding and I apologize for my know it all attitude at times. Yes Sweden, many tall people!

Right now we have Yururi MB back up set for Dinesh Chand only set available outside of his own 1 of 2. The #5 iron head weight is 251.6g

If your interested in this particular set let me know.

[tour-standard-golf]

Sounds good..BUT, I really like the lok of those Yururis! :tsg_smilie_smile2: I might, just might get them and bend'em. Even if its just the 1.5 to 2 degrees they recommend. Even though I would really like to get them already bent, at least the 2 degrees. Im not sure I know somebody I can trust to bend the heads here in Phuket, so I might have to go to Bangkok to have it done, which is a bit of a drag..

Ive been working on getting my hands a bit lower through the hitting area anyway, so the 2 degrees might suffice.

Another thing, why is it that we have to bend the irons all the time anyway? Cant they fix it during production? At the forging stage or rather straight after, when the steel is still a bit hot and before finish is done? For cast clubs I guess they have to do that, with different molds or something, because the steel is too brittle to bend safely. Im almost shocked that even Endo, ( for their epon stuff) which is such a High Tech manufacturer cant do it at the production stage, and limits the lie adjustability to a paltry 1.5 degrees. Amazing.

I adjust lies up to 3.5 degrees, no problem. S25C steel is fine for this level of manipulation. Just need to use brass shims and wrap the hosel well with tape. Surprised that most posts here don't recommend bending beyond 2 degrees. That's pretty commonplace.

[ant]

forged heads of S25 and S20 are more than fine with bending, I had one of my sets bent 5 degrees flatter 3-PW, no problem. the only issue with bending that much is possible chrome plating wrinkles/damage, depending on each specific plating used and they all seem to a bit different from different manufacturers, but that is purely cosmetic, the steel underneath seem to have no problem coping tho. also this looks like an old thread so hopefully OP got this resolved by now but it just I'm confused by why would he need more upright lie angles and at the same time saying hes working on a swing change to keep his hands lower thru impact. The lower your hands are thru impact the flatter lie angle you need.

I adjust lies up to 3.5 degrees, no problem. S25C steel is fine for this level of manipulation. Just need to use brass shims and wrap the hosel well with tape. Surprised that most posts here don't recommend bending beyond 2 degrees. That's pretty commonplace.

Edited December 3, 2011 by ant

[Vegaman]

forged heads of S25 and S20 are more than fine with bending, I had one of my sets bent 5 degrees flatter 3-PW, no problem. the only issue with bending that much is possible chrome plating wrinkles/damage, depending on each specific plating used and they all seem to a bit different from different manufacturers, but that is purely cosmetic, the steel underneath seem to have no problem coping tho. also this looks like an old thread so hopefully OP got this resolved by now but it just I'm confused by why would he need more upright lie angles and at the same time saying hes working on a swing change to keep his hands lower thru impact. The lower your hands are thru impact the flatter lie angle you need.

I still use my old irons that ae 3 degree up fom standard. I was contemplating getting my hands lower through the hitting zone, but I got a lot less consistent when I tried that, and my iron play is pretty decent so I swing normally now. It might also be because my irons are pretty upright so when I tried to lower my hands through the hitting area the results were inconsistent. So it's been resolved in a way, I didn't but new irons. I was just a bit confused as to why I got the slightly weird emails from Yururi saying "If we bend them 3 degrees up they are not Yururi anymore" or words to that effect. And back then I was surprised that in a segment were everything is supposed to ultra-custom everything they were so rigid.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Vegaman

[Shambles]

I still use my old irons that ae 3 degree up fom standard. I was contemplating getting my hands lower through the hitting zone, but I got a lot less consistent when I tried that, and my iron play is pretty decent so I swing normally now. It might also be because my irons are pretty upright so when I tried to lower my hands through the hitting area the results were inconsistent. So it's been resolved in a way, I didn't but new irons. I was just a bit confused as to why I got the slightly weird emails from Yururi saying "If we bend them 3 degrees up they are not Yururi anymore" or words to that effect. And back then I was surprised that in a segment were everything is supposed to ultra-custom everything they were so rigid.

I think longer shafts might help you but that would have the downside of needing stiffer shafts, addressing the ball a bit farther from you, a higher swing weight, and would have a pretty good chance of affecting your timing. The end result would probably come pretty close to learning to swing again.

The need for more upright is more often associated with tall people simply because the shafts are relatively short relative to them, and at 6' 5" more or less, you are very tall even amongst the tall. Longer shafts should allow you to stand a bit more upright and not need to adjust the lie as much, if at all, depending on the club design.

Shambles

[Vegaman]

I think longer shafts might help you but that would have the downside of needing stiffer shafts, addressing the ball a bit farther from you, a higher swing weight, and would have a pretty good chance of affecting your timing. The end result would probably come pretty close to learning to swing again.

The need for more upright is more often associated with tall people simply because the shafts are relatively short relative to them, and at 6' 5" more or less, you are very tall even amongst the tall. Longer shafts should allow you to stand a bit more upright and not need to adjust the lie as much, if at all, depending on the club design.

Shambles

I use 0.5 over standard right now, recently shortened them from 1 inch over standard. Just until last week i had a 5 iron that was 39 and now it's 38.5. Feels a bit more managable, the SW was D9 before..A bit heavy, yeah. No adverse effect on shotshape or distance so far. Before the 3 iron was 40 inches and rather heavy, and even though I played pretty well with the older set up it feels bit better now.

[Shambles]

The idea is to set your own standards as you really are far from the norm. I ignored your statement about already being 0.5 over standard as we are talking about Japanese clubs which often come with shorter and softer shafts. Even the American standard is, in my offhand opinion, a bit limiting for tall people.

If memory serves, I read an article way too many years ago that premised 5'8" as the standard height for golfers. Rather short from my point of view but very convenient for me as I'm close enough to it. I also have no idea of how qualified that writer was to be giving such an opinion or to set such a standard. However I had a 6'2" playing partner who habitually choked his clubs a inch or so and did a fairly good job with his clubs whereas I, being much shorter, doggedly used every inch of shaft I could swing. Being tall is an advantage from my point of view as it gives you better leverage and longer arms to swing with. The disadvantage is the knees and small of the back take more punishment.

As an EXPERIMENT, get one of your old Pitching Wedges and set the grooves parallel to a level floor. Fit your body to it without changing the orientation of the grooves and then see how little you can extend the shaft and still have an athletic stance with shoulders able to swing freely and knees not stressed to reach the grip, and arms falling naturally into place. Ideally, you should be able to comfortably swing the club back to address position with the grooves still parallel to the level ground even if your hands end up slightly ahead of the imaginary ball. Use the MINIMUM added length and try that out to determine it's effect on your swing and the many ways a wedge is used WITH THE CORRESPONDING VARIATIONS IN STANCE.

If you try this, I expect you will first discover that the extended shaft becomes a bit softer and your timing and release might be also affected full swing but especially in the short game. You will probably find that you also need to address the ball a little bit farther from yourself, thereby reducing the need to bend the head all that much and ideally not at all. You could end up hooking and pulling more often. However the only goal with this experiment is to determine the minimum added length needed for you to gain a comfortable stance and swing without spending too much in the search. If you can find and are totally convinced you have found the added length that works for you, visit a very good and very knowledgeable club maker and consult him on the needed stiffness for the shaft. It would probably be a good idea to bring along your playing wedge so the stiffness can be compared. Make the change, which will now be costing you money, and go through the experiment again. Be honest with yourself. Wishful thinking can waste time and money.

There are a lot of changes in going to longer shafts and you really should be having a person to person talk with both a good swing doctor and a good club maker as they can see you on the spot and I cannot. All I can legitimately do for you is to make a suggestion as to a possible solution but truly cannot verify your actual need.

Good luck.

Shambles