Any Truth To This?

[Mjr. D]

This guy over on WRX is adamant

[wmclarenf1]

i started the thread about the possibility of the ryoma maxima which i read about from an inpresx post there. would be good to know.

i spoke with a friend today in the club fitting business and he is the authorised fitter for 2 boutique japanese brands often mentioned here and he says he has heard from good sources as well that boutique japanese brands do indeed outsource production to china.

[supo]

srixon clubs are made in japan???????

[DaleUK]

srixon clubs are made in japan???????

Define Made?

Is the from Raw materials or just assembled??

It would be nice to know just who and where clubs are manufactured!!

You pays ya money.... You takes ya chance!!

[wmclarenf1]

srixon clubs are made in japan???????

:-) I am sure there are some made in Japan but I know that there are indeed some Srixon models (and the player's range not the entry level) made in China. Same with Mizuno, Tourstage.

[wmclarenf1]

Is the from Raw materials

I think this is a key point as well. I am ok with made Not made in Japan if all the process and QC are as tight and religiously followed but is the steel for those made in japan same as the steel for those not made in Japan. This I am guessing will have a big impact in feel and performance.

[gocchin]

Without a doubt many brands look to outsource to keep costs down... this is a fact of doing business. But this is not to say they do not still oversee quality and maintain a level of standard acceptable to the brand. Apple products are made in China, Taylormade products are made in China, boatloads of brands from Japanese makers to top German makers have cars made in Mexico. Top Cameras brands like Nikon and Canon have lenses made in China that still sell for a premium.

Everyone knows Endo has two forging locations, one in Niigata and a couple plants in Thailand... considering the number of clubs and the brands they produce clubs for, this was a must for them (plus they do forgings outside of the golf realm as well).

However keep in mind, all of Endos designers, engineers, executives, and Managers including those who control and oversee all manufacturing processes are indeed Japanese and adhere to the standards as put forth by the Japanese brands. I've seen them throw heads out on the production line just because they have a small aesthetic issue. ie a little mark.

While Endo is one of the most technologically advanced manufacturers, with changes in golf club designs and clubs getting more and more advanced, many brands who once produced their own clubs cannot always do so anymore without prices going through the roof ie through creating all new processes and techniques.

An example of this is Mizuno. We all know they do some of the best forgings with the Grain Flow Forged MP irons but a few years back, with the JPX line, they began tweaking the designs to become more forgiving, to create more distance, and some of them featured embedded tungsten forged right into the heads. Mizuno did not have the capacity to do this and these products would not be economically feasible if Mizuno had to build all new machines, create all new processes so what did they do... they went to Endo and the JPX E500 Forged was done at Endo...

Meanwhile the rest of the world is catching up... China is a country with over a billion people with powerful resources and the ability to create "cities" over night.. (I swear I saw on the news they replicated some European town inch for inch and also rebuilt a copy of Disneyland. While to say these were done overnight is of course an exaggeration, China does learn, does evolve and does improve and tries ways to make equivalent quality at lower costs (that is also not to say they don't make bad quality products but this is part of growth).

So what I am trying to say is, in discussions with several JDM brands, a common theme among them is that Endo is costly. There is no doubt they make some of the best products but many Japanese brands had to assess other avenues of producing clubs as they are businesses after all. Many brands have flip flopped between China and Endo through experimentation and trial and error... PRGR is one. They used to use Endo for many of their forgings but then suddenly moved a lot of production to China, things perhaps did not go as well as they had hoped and many models ended up coming back to Endo over the last few years... Now PRGR like other brands like ONOFF, Royal Collection, Fourteen, all of which are obviously smaller, split a lot of their products between Japan (Endo) and China. And on Mizuno above doing the JPX at Endo, they don't anymore due to cost which moved some JPX models to China instead.

Are some of these clubs made at Endo done in Thailand? Certainly. But all under the Endo roof and Japanese quality control. Endo has to spread out production otherwise there is no feasible way they could maintain that volume. The Vokey Forged is another example of being forged at Endo but in Thailand... that is a fantastic club, designed by Titleist, overseen by Endo and forged in Thailand then brought back to be assembled in Japan.

There is another reason why the Japanese do their assembling in Japan... this is one process they won't skimp on as the attention to detail of clubs put together by hand is a standard many Japanese brands feel cannot be reached yet by Chinese manufacturers... so the brands definitely care and worry about these things. Fourteen even told us at the golf fair once, all assembly of all their clubs even for the US market are done in Japan ,even though some of the heads are made in China and could be assembled there for less than a quarter of the cost... they won't even assemble in the US.... the rep said no matter what they have to be assembled in Japan. That of course could change as technique and standards improve outside of Japan.

30-40 years ago, nobody wanted a car made in japan... how quickly things changed and Japan caught up and surpassed the rest of the world for not only cars, but electronics and technology and manufacturing... but the rest of the world is now catching up and in some cases surpassing Japan as Japan struggles with economic uncertainties and negatives.

So does Endo forge some of their Epon clubs in Endo Thailand? Its a distinct possibility they do depending on the production load. Does it mean less quality vs forged in Niigata? Probably not, due to same materials, same processes, same machinery and same Japanese managers overseeing both production lines.

Unfortunately this is a sensitive subject for many OEMs and brands as they know some consumers are still sensitive to "Where it is made"... interestingly though this seems to be more the case OUTSIDE of Japan and for the very hardcore enthusiast (of course!)... Taylormade is all made in China but that does not hurt their popularity at all here in Japan... I bet if I asked all my neighbors where their clubs were made, they would not have the slightest clue nor would it matter to most of them. And I am not saying that is the way it should be... for enthusiasts like me and you, we care about the littlest things... but I love my Nexus 7 tablet and its not made in Japan... I love my STi and it is made in Japan. I am currently playing TM Gloire irons but they are made in China though designed by and overseen by TM Japan... and I like them. So perhaps I have grown lax in recent years... or the rest of the world has advanced to a point where their quality is no longer second guessed.

By the way who is this inpresX guy? He would be a welcome addition to the TSG Forum. (^_^)

[swisstrader]

Great explanation above.

I personally don't give a rats ass about what country produces my clubs, as long as they meet MY expectations around quality and performance. It used to be that "made in Japan" represented lousy quality...now there are some who believe that "made in China" equates with lousy quality, but guess what? The Chinese have come quickly up the quality curve, as has Thailand and a multitude of other countries. Sony TVs for the longest time were assembled in Mexico...didn't change my love of the Trinitron so many years ago.

How many American cars include parts or partial assembly in other countries?....how many "foreign" cars are produced in the US?

We're in a global economy where goods and services come from all over the planet.

Edited November 15, 2012 by swisstrader

[jaygolf]

Ok, i might annoy a few people with this but hey....

Would I prefer jdm clubs to be made in Japan? Yes. I lived in Japan 20 years ago, loved the country, the people, the Integrity...and i know first hand the sort of pride they put into their work. But mostly, I'm against sending artisan work abroad (yes, there's a reason why it costs so much, skilled workers...). Just like I wouldn't want my hand made Italian shoes to be made abroad.

Take Yamaha for example; none of us could find a single leak, photo....nothing. If yams were made in china, we would have seen pics ages ago.

Then...fakes. Many here saw the epon photos on one of these threads the other day. Many questioned the price....Not one of the epon csi team took the risk of calling them fakes.... because they were top fakes. Outsource your work, they end up in a Chinese factory, a mould disappears...and next thing you know you have fakes circulating before they've even been released. And who suffers? We do.

I'm not bashing Chinese people, merely pointing out that they play by a different set of rules than the Japanese.

[gocchin]

Jay there is nothing wrong with that at all, to each his own choices and every consumer has their own set of rules for making purchases.

But to be clear here though... Epon does NOT outsource any of their clubs. All Epon clubs are made at Endo period. Whether those other clubs are fakes? We can't tell without seeing them? Do they look good, yes they do, but they could be stolen, they could be being cleared out for some unforseen reason, we don't really know.

[jaygolf]

Jay there is nothing wrong with that at all, to each his own choices and every consumer has their own set of rules for making purchases.

But to be clear here though... Epon does NOT outsource any of their clubs. All Epon clubs are made at Endo period. Whether those other clubs are fakes? We can't tell without seeing them? Do they look good, yes they do, but they could be stolen, they could be being cleared out for some unforseen reason, we don't really know.

I'm not worried about Epon in particular. I'm just one of those who believes fake makers should hang on a noose.

[wmclarenf1]

Without a doubt many brands look to outsource to keep costs down... this is a fact of doing business. But this is not to say they do not still oversee quality and maintain a level of standard acceptable to the brand. Apple products are made in China, Taylormade products are made in China, boatloads of brands from Japanese makers to top German makers have cars made in Mexico. Top Cameras brands like Nikon and Canon have lenses made in China that still sell for a premium.

Everyone knows Endo has two forging locations, one in Niigata and a couple plants in Thailand... considering the number of clubs and the brands they produce clubs for, this was a must for them (plus they do forgings outside of the golf realm as well).

However keep in mind, all of Endos designers, engineers, executives, and Managers including those who control and oversee all manufacturing processes are indeed Japanese and adhere to the standards as put forth by the Japanese brands. I've seen them throw heads out on the production line just because they have a small aesthetic issue. ie a little mark.

While Endo is one of the most technologically advanced manufacturers, with changes in golf club designs and clubs getting more and more advanced, many brands who once produced their own clubs cannot always do so anymore without prices going through the roof ie through creating all new processes and techniques.

An example of this is Mizuno. We all know they do some of the best forgings with the Grain Flow Forged MP irons but a few years back, with the JPX line, they began tweaking the designs to become more forgiving, to create more distance, and some of them featured embedded tungsten forged right into the heads. Mizuno did not have the capacity to do this and these products would not be economically feasible if Mizuno had to build all new machines, create all new processes so what did they do... they went to Endo and the JPX E500 Forged was done at Endo...

Meanwhile the rest of the world is catching up... China is a country with over a billion people with powerful resources and the ability to create "cities" over night.. (I swear I saw on the news they replicated some European town inch for inch and also rebuilt a copy of Disneyland. While to say these were done overnight is of course an exaggeration, China does learn, does evolve and does improve and tries ways to make equivalent quality at lower costs (that is also not to say they don't make bad quality products but this is part of growth).

So what I am trying to say is, in discussions with several JDM brands, a common theme among them is that Endo is costly. There is no doubt they make some of the best products but many Japanese brands had to assess other avenues of producing clubs as they are businesses after all. Many brands have flip flopped between China and Endo through experimentation and trial and error... PRGR is one. They used to use Endo for many of their forgings but then suddenly moved a lot of production to China, things perhaps did not go as well as they had hoped and many models ended up coming back to Endo over the last few years... Now PRGR like other brands like ONOFF, Royal Collection, Fourteen, all of which are obviously smaller, split a lot of their products between Japan (Endo) and China. And on Mizuno above doing the JPX at Endo, they don't anymore due to cost which moved some JPX models to China instead.

Are some of these clubs made at Endo done in Thailand? Certainly. But all under the Endo roof and Japanese quality control. Endo has to spread out production otherwise there is no feasible way they could maintain that volume. The Vokey Forged is another example of being forged at Endo but in Thailand... that is a fantastic club, designed by Titleist, overseen by Endo and forged in Thailand then brought back to be assembled in Japan.

There is another reason why the Japanese do their assembling in Japan... this is one process they won't skimp on as the attention to detail of clubs put together by hand is a standard many Japanese brands feel cannot be reached yet by Chinese manufacturers... so the brands definitely care and worry about these things. Fourteen even told us at the golf fair once, all assembly of all their clubs even for the US market are done in Japan ,even though some of the heads are made in China and could be assembled there for less than a quarter of the cost... they won't even assemble in the US.... the rep said no matter what they have to be assembled in Japan. That of course could change as technique and standards improve outside of Japan.

30-40 years ago, nobody wanted a car made in japan... how quickly things changed and Japan caught up and surpassed the rest of the world for not only cars, but electronics and technology and manufacturing... but the rest of the world is now catching up and in some cases surpassing Japan as Japan struggles with economic uncertainties and negatives.

So does Endo forge some of their Epon clubs in Endo Thailand? Its a distinct possibility they do depending on the production load. Does it mean less quality vs forged in Niigata? Probably not, due to same materials, same processes, same machinery and same Japanese managers overseeing both production lines.

Unfortunately this is a sensitive subject for many OEMs and brands as they know some consumers are still sensitive to "Where it is made"... interestingly though this seems to be more the case OUTSIDE of Japan and for the very hardcore enthusiast (of course!)... Taylormade is all made in China but that does not hurt their popularity at all here in Japan... I bet if I asked all my neighbors where their clubs were made, they would not have the slightest clue nor would it matter to most of them. And I am not saying that is the way it should be... for enthusiasts like me and you, we care about the littlest things... but I love my Nexus 7 tablet and its not made in Japan... I love my STi and it is made in Japan. I am currently playing TM Gloire irons but they are made in China though designed by and overseen by TM Japan... and I like them. So perhaps I have grown lax in recent years... or the rest of the world has advanced to a point where their quality is no longer second guessed.

By the way who is this inpresX guy? He would be a welcome addition to the TSG Forum. (^_^)

Very well expounded on Tario! In not so many words, that is what I was tryng to find out and I believe your info is factual based. One thing I would say is the smaller brands are probably better off coming out and saying what you said.. i.e. while it may not be made in Japan, the same standards are applied as if they were done in Japan. I personally see nothing wrong in that.

[wmclarenf1]

Ok, i might annoy a few people with this but hey....

Would I prefer jdm clubs to be made in Japan? Yes. I lived in Japan 20 years ago, loved the country, the people, the Integrity...and i know first hand the sort of pride they put into their work. But mostly, I'm against sending artisan work abroad (yes, there's a reason why it costs so much, skilled workers...). Just like I wouldn't want my hand made Italian shoes to be made abroad.

Take Yamaha for example; none of us could find a single leak, photo....nothing. If yams were made in china, we would have seen pics ages ago.

Then...fakes. Many here saw the epon photos on one of these threads the other day. Many questioned the price....Not one of the epon csi team took the risk of calling them fakes.... because they were top fakes. Outsource your work, they end up in a Chinese factory, a mould disappears...and next thing you know you have fakes circulating before they've even been released. And who suffers? We do.

I'm not bashing Chinese people, merely pointing out that they play by a different set of rules than the Japanese.

Jay, I see what you are saying. The mainland Chinese (there is a difference) are evolving and have different standards just as the Koreans did in manufacturing and the Japanese before.

But mind you.. anyone who dismisses the Chinese as good at copying only (just as the Japanese were labeled that maybe 2 decades ago) does so at their peril. I have seen their iphones and not only have they managed to break code and reverse engineer, they have successfully added more features that work without a hitch (in many cases that is :-)

But this is OT and I see your point.

Edited November 15, 2012 by wmclarenf1

[wmclarenf1]

But to be clear here though... Epon does NOT outsource any of their clubs. All Epon clubs are made at Endo period.

Tario, nothing i between the lines but is this fact? If yes, why does their website not state as such but instead puts "Assembled in Japan" as opposed to "Made in Japan"? Anything outsourced from forging right down to finish or all heads (irons, wedges, drivers, woods etc) 100% done at Endo Japan and not Thailand or any other plant that may exist?

Also, any word on the same issues for the likes or Ryoma, Romaro, Kamui and smaller boutique brands which I read somewhere (not sure how much truth) use manufacturing plants in China?

Edited November 15, 2012 by wmclarenf1

[gocchin]

Yes 100% fact, all Epon clubs are made at Endo. Endo OWNS Epon... it is their own brand.

They have no reason to outsource its production to anyone else when they very well have the capability of making all their own products... They are a forging house and the world's most advanced so they would not ask anyone else to forge for them.

This is the reason why all their clubs, fairway woods, and utilities included are of the highest grade carbon steel and Ti and all Forged. Every Epon head is marked as Forged By Endo.. woods and irons and wedges.

I should note that Epon golf balls and accessories are indeed outsourced since they can't be forged. (^_^)

Why they do not write Made in Japan is because, as I noted in my earlier post, they can very well sometimes forge the heads in Endo Thailand too depending on capacity and how busy they are volume wise... but we must realize something, whether it be Endo Japan or Endo Thailand, they are the same company, using the same types of machines, using the same designs and molds and same materials and same processes, and managed by the same people. Their location of production is just different, and the person operating the machine is different ie Thai in Thailand and Japanese in Japan. Both are Endo.

Here is the ENDO factory in Niigata Japan... as you can see it is completely branded EPON even though it is Endo. This is the flagship factory and base for Epon and it is not that large just for show. (3 large manufacturing buildings plus a golf range)

Another example of the mixed manufacturing is Callaway... their Legacy drivers which use VL Titanium (signature endo) are made in Endo Thailand - and surprise surprise I just checked... assembled there as well whereas custom built built Legacys have the heads sent back to Japan and assembled. (so it looks like some manufacturers are assembling elsewhere though I am sure trained to japanese standards)

On the other hand, their Legacy fairway woods which are not forged are made in China. So it depends on the manufacturing needs for design and materials.

Kamui Works produces all their clubs here in Japan BY HAND...Kamui Pro... I do not know but can find out. Smaller brands are hard to tell sometimes... as they tend to be very secretive. It can be difficult to track down exactly what they do without me actually going there and seeing the production... which I would love to do and did for Epon and Crazy.

But in the end there is no denying many brands, for economic and business reasons need to outsource, but we also need to understand what "outsource" means. Its not like a brand says, well its time for the 2013 models, lets ask Company A in china to make them for us and Company A designs the head and makes it all on its own and ships it back to Japan to the brand. The outsourcing process includes many factors and steps and technically is the PLACE of production while the design, grade and types of materials, and overseeing of the production and quality control is still all pretty much Japanese and controlled by the brand. Many top Japanese managers from big brands spend years abroad training and overseeing these production lines in other countries. In the end it is still a Japanese brand, with a Japanese design and Japanese product - but occasionally made somewhere else. BMW and Mercedes are German brands but in many cases not made in Germany. I don't even think they out a "made in XXXXX" on their product pages. For golf brands it seems to certainly be a touchy subject which brands even have a hard time dealing with themselves.

[wmclarenf1]

Thanks for the further explanation T. I have no problem where it is manufactured but would like to know. My car is supposed to be made in Germany but the brand of car I have also has models which are made in Eastern Europe, Mexico and China. I have no problem with that but would like to know and they have no problems divulging that info but I can sense the sensitivity for smaller JDM brands.

When you can confirm about Ryoma and Romaro, that would be great as I am a big fan of Ryoma and seemingly Romaro.

BTW, do you know why some Ryoma driver heads have serial numbers laser etched on the hosel and some do not?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

This is old news, ive been playing JDM clubs that are not made in Japan for years. nothing controverseal about this at all. I buy Japanese technology, design, and often materials and expect to pay a higher price for that no matter where it's made.

I wish every OEM could afford Endo and in recent we only see brands top models manufactured there.

Tario and I have been inside the Endo factory before much of the production was moved to Thailand and we can't tell the difference. It's because nothing has changed, the raw materials are imported from Japan, the higher level engineers are from Japan, so are the top QC staff. To me being made by Endo period is that it's being made by a Japanese brand with JDM quality.

Most importantly the InpresX poster seems to generalize that because its made in China it should be the same price as other clubs made in China. That's obviously flawed logic for so many reasons. R&D costs for many JDM brands are much higher than other OEMs not only because their parent companies often span across the automotive, raw materials and even the space industry but because it costs a lot more to create new technology for golf clubs in tooling then the actual production. It's as simple as looking at the differences between the tech most usdm brands use vs the tech JDM brands use. If InpresX was correct about that golf clubs would never get watered down before heading to the rest of the world from Japan for the sole reason of costs.

Another important factor is take many popular OEMs manufactured in China then Assembled in Japan vs China vs USA. Not only the assembly is better in Japan but the QC and tolerance is as well.

Here's the most important aspect to all this, JDM is Japan Domestic Market and that's what we educate and offer others. What InpresX shares is not new info. We know what brands are made where and no not all Srixon or Yamaha clubs are made in Japan so he shouldn't claim that unequivocally either. Simply look at what's in your average global model driver then look at its price. Then look at what many JDM clubs have inside or what they are made of and compare. That's what we are getting an often distinct difference in tech and design and of course we expect to see a price difference for that.

[gocchin]

They should all have serials (as far as I know for the last year or so)... Ryoma tracks their serials quite closely.

[wmclarenf1]

They should all have serials (as far as I know for the last year or so)... Ryoma tracks their serials quite closely.

Good to know. Thanks.

[jaygolf]

Jay, I see what you are saying. The mainland Chinese (there is a difference) are evolving and have different standards just as the Koreans did in manufacturing and the Japanese before.

But mind you.. anyone who dismisses the Chinese as good as copying (just as the Japanese were labeled that maybe 2 decades ago) does so at their peril. I have seen their cy iphones and not only have they managed to break code and reverse engineer, they have successfully added more features that work without a hitch (in many cases that is :-)

But this is OT and I see your point.

I'm not labeling Chinese work in general and I'd be a fool to question their engineering skills. I just think for the price they go for, they should be made 100% in Japan. Take matellurgy for example, Chinese regulation is not as strict as it is in Japan where laws regarding things like chemical compositions are very difficult to meet. The japanese are the ones renowned for their forging skills, their foundries... The whole package is what makes jdm gear so attractive to me. I don't just pay for the brand, I pay for the package. I feel it would be like Ferrari moving their factories to Vietnam and keeping the same prices and reputation. That won't happen. And epon, yam... are the ferraris of golf.

[jaygolf]

This is old news, ive been playing JDM clubs that are not made in Japan for years. nothing controverseal about this at all. I buy Japanese technology, design, and often materials and expect to pay a higher price for that no matter where it's made.

I wish every OEM could afford Endo and in recent we only see brands top models manufactured there.

Tario and I have been inside the Endo factory before much of the production was moved to Thailand and we can't tell the difference. It's because nothing has changed, the raw materials are imported from Japan, the higher level engineers are from Japan, so are the top QC staff. To me being made by Endo period is that it's being made by a Japanese brand with JDM quality.

Most importantly the InpresX poster seems to generalize that because its made in China it should be the same price as other clubs made in China. That's obviously flawed logic for so many reasons. R&D costs for many JDM brands are much higher than other OEMs not only because their parent companies often span across the automotive, raw materials and even the space industry but because it costs a lot more to create new technology for golf clubs in tooling then the actual production. It's as simple as looking at the differences between the tech most usdm brands use vs the tech JDM brands use. If InpresX was correct about that golf clubs would never get watered down before heading to the rest of the world from Japan for the sole reason of costs.

Another important factor is take many popular OEMs manufactured in China then Assembled in Japan vs China vs USA. Not only the assembly is better in Japan but the QC and tolerance is as well.

Here's the most important aspect to all this, JDM is Japan Domestic Market and that's what we educate and offer others. What InpresX shares is not new info. We know what brands are made where and no not all Srixon or Yamaha clubs are made in Japan so he shouldn't claim that unequivocally either. Simply look at what's in your average global model driver then look at its price. Then look at what many JDM clubs have inside or what they are made of and compare. That's what we are getting an often distinct difference in tech and design and of course we expect to see a price difference for that.

Good point you have there. I guess I'm just a fussy old git! :)

[jaygolf]

That last comment of mine was probably a little extreme (not the self confessing old git one, the one before that)

Either way, I just love my jdm. Where there's love, there's passion.

[idrive]

By the way who is this inpresX guy? He would be a welcome addition to the TSG Forum. (^_^)

He's been here.

The guy has issues

You don't want him here. At least I don't

A supposed no-it-all that thinks he knows more than everyone else

but doesn't.

[RIduffer]

Either way, I just love my jdm. Where there's love, there's passion.

Interestingly, where there is passion sometimes it is just lust… Hence BST….

[+TourSpecGolfer]

He's been here.

The guy has issues

You don't want him here. At least I don't

A supposed no-it-all that thinks he knows more than everyone else

but doesn't.

I'd love him here for that reason. We can educate him as he is clearly ignorant on the issue.

It seems its as if he heard that not all JDM clubs were made in Japan and said OMG!!! I better tell everyone online!

All the while this has been common knowledge for knowledgeable TSG members.

What's even more telling is that he goes and posts it on a board where people know less about JDM vs posting it where he could actually learn more about JDM.

We've been noticing an uptick of people who either don't like JDM, TSG or simply can't afford the product saying all sorts of wild things from Epon forges Miura, Mitsubishi makes Crazy, and now this...lol

It shows we're growing as more bone heads slip in. Not to worry Tario & I will keep this place for the true JDM enthusiasts.