What do you guys think of the new Fourteen FH1000?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Blades are making a come back in Japan and at TSG we're very happy about that. One of the sexiest blades at the 2013 Japan Golf Fair was the FH1000 by Fourteen Golf. It was sorta hidden behind a wall at the Fourteen booth. We finally have a successor to the TB-1000 of years back. These are not cast like the TB model was this new FH1000 is forged of S25C with fairly traditional lofts with the 5 iron at 27* and PW at 47*.

This is Fourteens new "Tour Model" something they plan on encouraging their professionals to use and like the RM12 wedges it has the same reverse muscle back design which is supposed to improve accuracy according to Fourteen. The center of gravity was placed to make long iron shots low spin and short iron shots higher spin and lastly it's beautiful shape.

Wedges from the PGA & JPGA Tours along with extra shots from the Japan Golf Fair.

[RIduffer]

Look very nice…

[Ian-500]

Ooooo that satin RM-12. I'm in love

[EdGolf]

Always like the simple look of fourteen irons and wedges but the thick topline and cast always turn me off but this new forge is beautiful. Where is this forge and how thin are the topline, as compare to let's say Yururi flatback??

[RICE]

Like

[RIduffer]

Size comparisons to other blades out there today?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

What's really interesting is that in Feb at the golf show they told us these were cast like the TB-1000 and these actual photos are supposed to be of the soft casting version. But when the official information came out it said Forged of S25C.

[EdGolf]

What's really interesting is that in Feb at the golf show they told us these were cast like the TB-1000 and these actual photos are supposed to be of the soft casting version. But when the official information came out it said Forged of S25C.

Hmmm maybe the sample was cast and the actual product will be forged?? Would be the first forged fourteen thou....!! Would really like to know where it's 'forged'?

Edited April 23, 2013 by EdGolf

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Hmmm maybe the sample was cast and the actual product will be forged?? Would be the first forged fourteen thou....!! Would really like to know where it's 'forged'?

There have been many forged fourteen irons, some at endo and some in china. These were forged in China.

[EdGolf]

My bad.... i mean Japan forged.... as somehow I was told their forged are either in China or Thailand? Out of interest, which models are endo forged Chris as would be interesting to see the difference in quality, if any??

[+TourSpecGolfer]

My bad.... i mean Japan forged.... as somehow I was told their forged are either in China or Thailand? Out of interest, which models are endo forged Chris as would be interesting to see the difference in quality, if any??

Much of Endo's Manufacturing is done in Thailand but not these FH1000 irons.

There is always a difference when it comes to Endo.

[wmclarenf1]

Much of Endo's Manufacturing is done in Thailand but not these FH1000 irons. There is always a difference when it comes to Endo.

Chris,

For me only perhaps but what are the differences? Its easier to appreciate and even pay a premium to understand what the differences are? Are we talking a different kind of steel and forging process? Or is it just finishing which does not affect performance?

I know this has been a sensitive subject and perhaps still is and I am not trying to stir anything, just wanting to understand and appreciate. I am fine if forged in Thailand, Taiwan and even China as long as the raw steel, forging, process, QC is strictly followed. For me its similar to say an Audi or BMW made in China, Hungary or Germany. I do not think the German made ones are better in any way and Audi and BMW I think, (options aside) will not allow an inferior engine, chassis, or gearbox for example to be used in the China or Hungarian made models than those made in Germany? I could be wrong. There are certain models like the A8 or R8 for Audi which are solely made in Ingolstadt I think but that is perhaps more due to the smaller production and marketing?

Manufacturing is now global across the board and what we think of German, American, British, Korean and Japanese may indeed not really be. Is that wrong? I don't know or think so? The Jaguars and Land Rovers now are maybe of better build and quality and performance under the Indian Tata Group than say under Ford and god forbid, the British. Are Jaguar and Land Rover really British marques or less so? Does it really matter if the car is at least as good or maybe even better?

Again, not trying to stir the unsavory. Just trying to understand more the salient details of the difference and what benefits Japanese made (as opposed to assembled) brings over otherwise.

Thanks.

Edited April 23, 2013 by wmclarenf1

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Chris,

For me only perhaps but what are the differences? Its easier to appreciate and even pay a premium to understand what the differences are? Are we talking a different kind of steel and forging process? Or is it just finishing which does not affect performance?

I know this has been a sensitive subject and perhaps still is and I am not trying to stir anything, just wanting to understand and appreciate. I am fine if forged in Thailand, Taiwan and even China as long as the raw steel, forging, process, QC is strictly followed. For me its similar to say an Audi or BMW made in China, Hungary or Germany. I do not think the German made ones are better in any way and Audi and BMW I think, (options aside) will not allow an inferior engine, chassis, or gearbox for example to be used in the China or Hungarian made models than those made in Germany? I could be wrong. There are certain models like the A8 or R8 for Audi which are solely made in Ingolstadt I think but that is perhaps more due to the smaller production and marketing?

Manufacturing is now global across the board and what we think of German, American, British, Korean and Japanese may indeed not really be. Is that wrong? I don't know or think so? The Jaguars and Land Rovers now are maybe of better build and quality and performance under the Indian Tata Group than say under Ford and god forbid, the British. Are Jaguar and Land Rover really British marques or less so? Does it really matter if the car is at least as good or maybe even better?

Again, not trying to stir the unsavory. Just trying to understand more the salient details of the difference and what benefits Japanese made (as opposed to assembled) brings over otherwise.

Thanks.

This is a great question F1, I can give you my opinion...

Endo has a lot of expertise in molds and I think thats where a lot money is made. Endo can produce designs that no other company can. It's far more expensive to produce any type of golf club mold at Endo than anywhere else.

Despite costing a lot more money many of the worlds best brands still make their best and most high end forged products here. When it comes to forgings they produce the most complicated and advanced designs. They allow OEMs to try new technologies because Endo has the technology and process.

The rest of the world will catch up some day but only if Endo stands still. I don't see that happening. For now they are simply the only ones who can produce certain designs.

If you look at the many Japanese OEMs that use Endo the majority use Forged VL Titanium as a face material in drivers it must be for good reason. That's a give away that the driver was made at Endo, also nothing is really CNC milled, It's all pressed or laser engraved. You will often here the term Chemical milling or recently the use of alpha gels, those are just few of the many things that only Endo does. Of course materials pass J.I.S standards which is a plus.

The brands that are pushing the envelope have to go to Endo, Callaway Imo has some of the best golf technology in the world and for their top models only Endo can deliver, TourStage and Yamaha have shapes behind the forged faces that enhance forgiveness and those are the types of things only Endo can do, or like the face milling we are now starting to see in the ONOFF Forged, Yammys, and the SYD Bolds, only endo can do that right now and those little things done properly and with insanely tight tolerence make for something very special.

I do think finish, QC, everything else is easily #1 as well.

Thats my take.

[wmclarenf1]

This is a great question F1, I can give you my opinion... Endo has a lot of expertise in molds and I think thats where a lot money is made. Endo can produce designs that no other company can. It's far more expensive to produce any type of golf club mold at Endo than anywhere else. Despite costing a lot more money many of the worlds best brands still make their best and most high end forged products here. When it comes to forgings they produce the most complicated and advanced designs. They allow OEMs to try new technologies because Endo has the technology and process. The rest of the world will catch up some day but only if Endo stands still. I don't see that happening. For now they are simply the only ones who can produce certain designs. If you look at the many Japanese OEMs that use Endo the majority use Forged VL Titanium as a face material in drivers it must be for good reason. That's a give away that the driver was made at Endo, also nothing is really CNC milled, It's all pressed or laser engraved. You will often here the term Chemical milling or recently the use of alpha gels, those are just few of the many things that only Endo does. Of course materials pass J.I.S standards which is a plus. The brands that are pushing the envelope have to go to Endo, Callaway Imo has some of the best golf technology in the world and for their top models only Endo can deliver, TourStage and Yamaha have shapes behind the forged faces that enhance forgiveness and those are the types of things only Endo can do, or like the face milling we are now starting to see in the ONOFF Forged, Yammys, and the SYD Bolds, only endo can do that right now and those little things done properly and with insanely tight tolerence make for something very special. I do think finish, QC, everything else is easily #1 as well. Thats my take.

Thanks for this Chris. I have no doubt all the R&D, design and other IP is done in Japan. I'm just wondering if these designs and processes are shared in , for example, Endo's Thai forging plant as is the J.I.S. standards for steel and if so, is a Thai Endo forged product then inferior to a Japan Endo forged product? The same analogy extends to any JDM brand that maybe produces in Taiwan, Thailand or China.

Or is it perhaps the machinery for the specific forging process is trademarked and patented and only exists in Japan and not exported to ex-Japan production plants which Endo or any other JDM brand may have and hence cannot be produced ex-Japan?

I ask because if the Japan derived IP (R&D, design etc) and necessary machinery are indeed exported to ex-Japan production plants, then there should not be a difference and premium for "Made in Japan" as the key premium proposition for JDM is in the IP (R&D, design etc which all can accept and understand) and less so in the production assuming all the necessary processes and machinery to ensure same QC, finish and overall final product outcome. JDM will still be a premium to say a TM or a Titty or TourEdge assuming you one believes JDM design is better.

Going back to the automotive analogy, I think this is being done hence a buyer of say a 535 made in Germany is equally comfortable with a 535 made in Hungary or Mexico as the original R&D, design, technology, processes etc came out of Bavaria. Similarly, I THINK (not sure) all 911s are made in Germany partly due to marketing reasons but maybe the Boxsters and Caymans aren't but buyers worry not about that as the Porsche badge bears assurance of Porsche quality and performance?

I guess maybe I'm just going the long roundabout route to say perhaps MADE in Japan (assuming all relevant processes, raw materials, machinery etc is exported) is not so important as long as it is DESIGNED in Japan?

[wmclarenf1]

I've always liked the design of Fourteen clubs btw... very clean, pure lines and design.. Zen like to a certain degree. I just never got on well with them from a performance pov.

[xxio]

Weren't the TB1000s forged but the TB1000 PROTOs were cast. Extremely soft castings.

[mizguy]

These look great! I can't wait to try them out.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Thanks for this Chris. I have no doubt all the R&D, design and other IP is done in Japan. I'm just wondering if these designs and processes are shared in , for example, Endo's Thai forging plant as is the J.I.S. standards for steel and if so, is a Thai Endo forged product then inferior to a Japan Endo forged product? The same analogy extends to any JDM brand that maybe produces in Taiwan, Thailand or China.

Or is it perhaps the machinery for the specific forging process is trademarked and patented and only exists in Japan and not exported to ex-Japan production plants which Endo or any other JDM brand may have and hence cannot be produced ex-Japan?

I ask because if the Japan derived IP (R&D, design etc) and necessary machinery are indeed exported to ex-Japan production plants, then there should not be a difference and premium for "Made in Japan" as the key premium proposition for JDM is in the IP (R&D, design etc which all can accept and understand) and less so in the production assuming all the necessary processes and machinery to ensure same QC, finish and overall final product outcome. JDM will still be a premium to say a TM or a Titty or TourEdge assuming you one believes JDM design is better.

Going back to the automotive analogy, I think this is being done hence a buyer of say a 535 made in Germany is equally comfortable with a 535 made in Hungary or Mexico as the original R&D, design, technology, processes etc came out of Bavaria. Similarly, I THINK (not sure) all 911s are made in Germany partly due to marketing reasons but maybe the Boxsters and Caymans aren't but buyers worry not about that as the Porsche badge bears assurance of Porsche quality and performance?

I guess maybe I'm just going the long roundabout route to say perhaps MADE in Japan (assuming all relevant processes, raw materials, machinery etc is exported) is not so important as long as it is DESIGNED in Japan?

The majority of Endo's production is done in Thailand. It's not a matter of where it's made as it the design, tech, process, and materials. For Endo that means Japanese technology, staff, QC, and materials located in their thailand factories.

I also think a big factor is price point the Japanese can do so much more with a driver that cost $900 usd vs $300. It's pretty apparent when looking at brands like Srixon, Cleveland, Bridgestone etc.. In order for these makers to bring a club to the states some features have to be excluded. i.e no forged model in the states, or no tungsten in irons or 7 piece forged Ti driver heads.

A lot of people say whats made in Japan comes out in 1-3 years in the states, that's not exactly accurate as many of the technologies never make it stateside due to cost. So unless the global golf market is willing to pay for those advancements chances are it will not be wide spread no matter how great it is. Gimmicks are much cheaper to make and market than new technologies.

I hope that helps, as for car analogies I think the RX7, GTR & LFA are good examples of cars that only the Japanese can do.

[lykato]

Two weeks ago I demoed Fourteens new line of irons, wedges, and driver at one of our local golf shop.

The FH1000 looks great with a very clean and simple look that pleases the eye. The topline is bit thicker than what I would like to see, but not by much. From the top and looking down, the club looks fine with no offset at all. I spent a good 20 minutes hitting both the 8 and 6 irons. Unfortunately, all the irons I tried still had the x100 shafts in them which they had provided to the tour players to test out. Although the shaft was a bit too much for my swing, the feel was very compact and butterrrrrry soft. I would say this is probably their best set or irons both esthetically and performance wise. You will not be disappointed. This could be my backup set.

The RM12 wedges were also very nice- especially the nickel finish. The face on the black version seem to fade a bit more than what I expected. The wedges were also very soft and generated a lot of spin. The monitor was showing a spin rate of 8000 to 8400 rpm with Callaway practice balls. Per the rep, what makes Fourteen’s wedges special is how flat they make the faces compared to other brands. I could hardly tell the difference by looking at it, but the spin is definitely there.

Lastly, I tried their new driver, the CT112 (I think this is the model) with one of Aldila’s new shafts. I wasn’t impressed with the way it looked after seeing the S-Yard, Romaros, and Ryomas. Fourteen could’ve done a better job on the head. However, I was very surprised at how nice it felt and the distance you can get with this driver. I was never a big fan of Aldila shafts but with this head, it was a great combo. I hit a few shots in the beginning to get a feel for the club and then took my regular swing to see what kind of numbers I would get from the monitor. Drives were straight with a slight draw and didn’t deviate too much from the center. I started off with 275, 285, 295, 305, and then 320. I told the rep they needed to do some maintenance or recalibrate the machine because I definitely do not hit it anywhere in 300s and he can subtract 30 yards off the distance. My average is around 265-270, with great drives at 280. This is definitely a club that I would like to retest again at the driving range.

I’ll give you an update in the next week or two.

[wmclarenf1]

The majority of Endo's production is done in Thailand. It's not a matter of where it's made as it the design, tech, process, and materials. For Endo that means Japanese technology, staff, QC, and materials located in their thailand factories. I also think a big factor is price point the Japanese can do so much more with a driver that cost $900 usd vs $300. It's pretty apparent when looking at brands like Srixon, Cleveland, Bridgestone etc.. In order for these makers to bring a club to the states some features have to be excluded. i.e no forged model in the states, or no tungsten in irons or 7 piece forged Ti driver heads. A lot of people say whats made in Japan comes out in 1-3 years in the states, that's not exactly accurate as many of the technologies never make it stateside due to cost. So unless the global golf market is willing to pay for those advancements chances are it will not be wide spread no matter how great it is. Gimmicks are much cheaper to make and market than new technologies. I hope that helps, as for car analogies I think the RX7, GTR & LFA are good examples of cars that only the Japanese can do.

Thanks for indulging Chris.

Your first para.. I can;t agree more. Its not so much where but what and how.

The LFA is rather fantastic! But at over a million SGD to get that on the roads here, I can;t quite afford that unfortunately LOL