Why does this Wedge Design work?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Thought of ANT and RIDuffer after hitting this wedge. After the conversation on the Bold's design I know I can always count on these guys to analyze new gear.

Here's one that caught me off guard. Had it in the workshop for a while shafted with no grip uncut NS1150 is what it was attached to. I wanted to give this wedge a try since I saw it I just didn't get around to it. Now that I have I'm blown away, with higher lofts I tend to pull left but with this one shots that would normally start and go left were much straighter. Not sure if its the head, the shaft, or what. This is just 2 rounds in so maybe it was just an ON couple of days for me but I'm pretty impressed especially by the way it looks from above and that it seems to produce a little more spin than the average wedge.

Looks like it has a little onset which is something that G.Takei has always done. The sole is nice, classy, thin, simple. The finish going from brushed to chrome is cool looking. The face has very light mill marks. I think this would be a fantastic wedge in a raw finish as well.

[RIduffer]

Want to say Chiro or Bogey had a thread on this wedge. As to being anti hook, just guessing, but maybe the extra heel side weight prevents a premature closing/hooding of the face...

[chiromikey]

i was eagerly waiting for you to get these wedges back in the raw finish until the bolds became available so i never bought them. i've always struck the ball on the heel side of center and my swing path favors a slight pull/draw so this design makes perfect sense for me. in fact, i wanted the irons as well!

[RIduffer]

i was eagerly waiting for you to get these wedges back in the raw finish until the bolds became available so i never bought them. i've always struck the ball on the heel side of center and my swing path favors a slight pull/draw so this design makes perfect sense for me. in fact, i wanted the irons as well!

Woooo hooooo, memory still intact… Loads of other issues, but memory seems to be functioning...

[ant]

if i guess what it is will i get this wedge ?! :) yeah there was a thread not so long ago on their irons with exact same design and someone posted a lost in translation (either from jp to en or from engineering to marketing) marketing blurb which basically said they did it to reduce toe down effect and shots left and it kinda didnt make sense all together. what i think they were trying to do is essentially get the cog closer to the shaft centerline and prevent the face closing as much as it would on a more towards the toe cog placement trying to align itself to the shaft centerline and closing the face more. one of the ways to do it would be shifting the cog closer to the heel in this case. so thats all theory and my best guess at what they where trying to do. it kinda makes sense with long irons and maybe mid irons but short irons and wedges in reality i think it has to be a tip flexible shaft, heavy clubhead and aggressive hit to make a real difference. still, if it cures your pull maybe it makes a difference in your case. maybe its 1150. its pretty stable shaft i think, i had a set for awhile as well. another thing is onset you mention. that again would close the face less and its probably on purpose in this design in relation to what i said above on cog placement. maybe its a combo of all these things or this wedge simply felt right to you and that affected how you hit it like you said, who knows. anyway i did mention on their irons thread i like the way this design looks, something original. this wedge here i would grind the back of the sole heel side to make that line disappear into the heel at the same angle the muscle portion is shaped and that would be about perfect.

Thought of ANT and RIDuffer after hitting this wedge. After the conversation on the Bold's design I know I can always count on these guys to analyze new gear.

Here's one that caught me off guard. Had it in the workshop for a while shafted with no grip uncut NS1150 is what it was attached to. I wanted to give this wedge a try since I saw it I just didn't get around to it. Now that I have I'm blown away, with higher lofts I tend to pull left but with this one shots that would normally start and go left were much straighter. Not sure if its the head, the shaft, or what. This is just 2 rounds in so maybe it was just an ON couple of days for me but I'm pretty impressed especially by the way it looks from above and that it seems to produce a little more spin than the average wedge.

Looks like it has a little onset which is something that G.Takei has always done. The sole is nice, classy, thin, simple. The finish going from brushed to chrome is cool looking. The face has very light mill marks. I think this would be a fantastic wedge in a raw finish as well.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ant

[wmclarenf1]

if i guess what it is will i get this wedge ?! :) yeah there was a thread not so long ago on their irons with exact same design and someone posted a lost in translation (either from jp to en or from engineering to marketing) marketing blurb which basically said they did it to reduce toe down effect and shots left and it kinda didnt make sense all together. what i think they were trying to do is essentially get the cog closer to the shaft centerline and prevent the face closing as much as it would on a more towards the toe cog placement trying to align itself to the shaft centerline and closing the face more. one of the ways to do it would be shifting the cog closer to the heel in this case. so thats all theory and my best guess at what they where trying to do. it kinda makes sense with long irons and maybe mid irons but short irons and wedges in reality i think it has to be a tip flexible shaft, heavy clubhead and aggressive hit to make a real difference. still, if it cures your pull maybe it makes a difference in your case. maybe its 1150. its pretty stable shaft i think, i had a set for awhile as well. another thing is onset you mention. that again would close the face less and its probably on purpose in this design in relation to what i said above on cog placement. maybe its a combo of all these things or this wedge simply felt right to you and that affected how you hit it like you said, who knows. anyway i did mention on their irons thread i like the way this design looks, something original. this wedge here i would grind the back of the sole heel side to make that line disappear into the heel at the same angle the muscle portion is shaped and that would be about perfect.

Wont' additional weight on the heel encourage a pull/draw/hook and vice versa for toe weight?

The engineering to marketing comment was funny.

[supo]

that what i thought ..extra weight near the heel shud shut the face and close the angle and promote a draw.. no?

unless its weighted in the back, heel and then i guess the weight pulls the club open ?????

[chiromikey]

Woooo hooooo, memory still intact… Loads of other issues, but memory seems to be functioning...

lol, yep it was me. i sure would like to give these a trial but it's tough enough for me to buy clubs without hitting them...not to mention the fact that there's not a single member that can offer feedback.

[ant]

it would if you are trying to turn the toe yes it would make it easier but it wont turn the toe in for you. my understanding of what they are doing with this is based on that marketing blurb so its just a best guess/speculation kinda thing on my part and from that they are not trying to deal with workability part of it but instead focusing on minimizing the effects shaft bend has on clubface orientation when cg is is trying to align with the shaft centerline on release. so if you are turning the face in thats not gonna help you with keeping it square, if anything its gonna make it easier to turn it in ie more workable design but if you are dumping a heavy clubhead on a weak shaft while trying to hit a cut it might just help you do that instead of pulling it left if the face is shot and becomes square to path due to shaft deflection from cg trying to align itself. and before you ask i honestly have no idea how much effect that stuff has in reality and if it really works or just a gimmick or corner case solution of sorts, its hard to imagine it would have any dramatic effect but those guys probably have heaps of testing data and calculations and i dont so take this with a grain of salt either way.

Wont' additional weight on the heel encourage a pull/draw/hook and vice versa for toe weight?

The engineering to marketing comment was funny.

[anggapra]

Wont' additional weight on the heel encourage a pull/draw/hook and vice versa for toe weight?

The engineering to marketing comment was funny.

yeah its pure physics additional weight on heel will promote a draw, and vice versa. just try to swing a heel shafted toe heavy putter, it will open significantly on the swing. then try to flip it upside down and the opening will be greatly reduced.

so maybe this wedge has its centre of gravity near the toe?

[ant]

grab an old style heel shafted no offset blade putter and repeat your experiment, see if it makes any difference.

yeah its pure physics additional weight on heel will promote a draw, and vice versa. just try to swing a heel shafted toe heavy putter, it will open significantly on the swing. then try to flip it upside down and the opening will be greatly reduced.

so maybe this wedge has its centre of gravity near the toe?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Yes the more mass on the heel should promote left but my result is different.

It would be silly to make a design to combat shaft droop on a wedge dont you think?

[ant]

i just wanted to clarify this because i think there is some confusion about this whole heel/toe weighting thing with irons. what it really does it controls the clubhead moi about the shaft axis. the farther away from the shaft axis the weight goes the higher that moi would be and the harder it would be to rotate the face shut. hypothetically if you made a club where cg would be exactly in line with the shaft it would offer no resistance to rotation. the trick is you have to rotate it in the first place and from that it becomes a workability factor not a hit that club and its gonna make it draw for you automatically factor. if the later was true then most golfers who suffer from push slice and come from outside in with wide open face would only need a set of old long hosel short blade macgregors to cure that (and maybe they do but for other reasons that would be moot here ). an iron with cg closer to the shaft axis is a more neutral design meaning it interferes less with what you are doing thus its more workable and personally i think this is how it should be but it doesnt make you do things what comes out is what you put in.

regarding toe down in a wedge, again, this is just my speculation based on their marketing blurb posted earlier on another thread. i dont think its matters unless the weight and flex go to something more of extreme but then again what i think can be completely off and those guys might have calculations and data to say otherwise. i cant tell why that wedge works for you, its all just a guesswork and having fun talking golf gear. nobody can tell you why unless they measure every parameter of the one that doesnt work and the one that does and make conclusions based on that. if that was possible to determine based on marketing blurb then fitters wont exist and people would just buy golf clubs off the internet (oh, wait, what) :) seriously tho why cant you talk to the guy who designed it and give us here the skinny on what exactly that design does and how it affects things like the stuff we talked about here so far. that should be interesting and educational.

Yes the more mass on the heel should promote left but my result is different.

It would be silly to make a design to combat shaft droop on a wedge dont you think?

[+TourSpecGolfer]

i just wanted to clarify this because i think there is some confusion about this whole heel/toe weighting thing with irons. what it really does it controls the clubhead moi about the shaft axis. the farther away from the shaft axis the weight goes the higher that moi would be and the harder it would be to rotate the face shut. hypothetically if you made a club where cg would be exactly in line with the shaft it would offer no resistance to rotation. the trick is you have to rotate it in the first place and from that it becomes a workability factor not a hit that club and its gonna make it draw for you automatically factor. if the later was true then most golfers who suffer from push slice and come from outside in with wide open face would only need a set of old long hosel short blade macgregors to cure that (and maybe they do but for other reasons that would be moot here ). an iron with cg closer to the shaft axis is a more neutral design meaning it interferes less with what you are doing thus its more workable and personally i think this is how it should be but it doesnt make you do things what comes out is what you put in.

regarding toe down in a wedge, again, this is just my speculation based on their marketing blurb posted earlier on another thread. i dont think its matters unless the weight and flex go to something more of extreme but then again what i think can be completely off and those guys might have calculations and data to say otherwise. i cant tell why that wedge works for you, its all just a guesswork and having fun talking golf gear. nobody can tell you why unless they measure every parameter of the one that doesnt work and the one that does and make conclusions based on that. if that was possible to determine based on marketing blurb then fitters wont exist and people would just buy golf clubs off the internet (oh, wait, what) :) seriously tho why cant you talk to the guy who designed it and give us here the skinny on what exactly that design does and how it affects things like the stuff we talked about here so far. that should be interesting and educational.

We have and the same reason mentioned in the marketing blurb was given which I still don't believe, and that's what made me bench this wedge for so long.

[ant]

i would just measure everything i can so you have a set of reference points you can use for your next build and then build to the same exact specs and the only difference would be head design. like you i'm very skeptical about it, i think if you can build to exact same specs but different head it should work for you just the same.

[ant]

one more thing i thought worth mentioning here if you really wanna figure this out. mizuno has this shaft fitting rig called mizuno shaft optimizer. its basically a small device that clips to the shaft and feeds data to computer. i dont think they sell it but if you have a mizuno custom fitting place nearby you can probably take a few wedges there and test. one of the things it measures is toe down bend.

[chiromikey]

i think you're going overboard with your fixation on toe drop. i don't think this is a wedge specific design rather than simply an iron design carried over to the wedges. i think it works for a lot of the same reasons many mb's do...a lot of (better) players prefer a heel biased sweetspot for workability and feel.

[ant]

i'm just curious whether or not there is any truth to it and if it actually does something for a wedge or its just a gimmick. another wedge maker Renegar is talking about the same thing in their marketing material tho they address it differently via stiffer tip shaft solution

"Many players will want to play the ball a little toward the toe with our wedges – particularly on chips and partial shots - our firmer shaft tip reduces the "droop" phenomenon on slower swing shots (this is the reason so many even good players "shank" their wedges occassionally)."

[Guest kbeasley]

one more thing i thought worth mentioning here if you really wanna figure this out. mizuno has this shaft fitting rig called mizuno shaft optimizer. its basically a small device that clips to the shaft and feeds data to computer. i dont think they sell it but if you have a mizuno custom fitting place nearby you can probably take a few wedges there and test. one of the things it measures is toe down bend.

I am not sure you can have the Mizuno shaft optimizer attached to just any club. Having been fitted for Mizunos a couple times, the shaft optimizer is a purpose built 6 iron with a set of accelerometers and other sensors built into the shaft of the club. The unit that the fitter works with is the display unit for the computer that uses the sensors to determine a) swing speed b)tempo c) shaft toe down d) shaft kick angle and e) something called the "Release factor". Loads of good info on the tech and reasoning behind it can be found here: http://www.mizunousa.com/golf/innovation/performance-fitting-system.

For my money, the Mizuno system is the best of the OEM fitting systems out there. The only weakness it has is that it does not have every shaft made in the database. You definitely will not find Crazy (for example) as a recommendation coming out of their system. For that sort of thing you will need a knowledgeable to help you find a shaft that makes a 95% configuration get close to perfect.

[ant]

i didnt realize they have to rig it the whole thing, i thought its just some very high tech clip on style sensor unit that can read all those things somehow. what you describe sounds similar to an old true temper system then but without the awkward wiring part.

[dodo]

i'm very interested in this design I see there is a new model coming I was wondering if somebody knows the difference it looks very similar.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I am not sure you can have the Mizuno shaft optimizer attached to just any club. Having been fitted for Mizunos a couple times, the shaft optimizer is a purpose built 6 iron with a set of accelerometers and other sensors built into the shaft of the club. The unit that the fitter works with is the display unit for the computer that uses the sensors to determine a) swing speed b)tempo c) shaft toe down d) shaft kick angle and e) something called the "Release factor". Loads of good info on the tech and reasoning behind it can be found here: http://www.mizunousa...-fitting-system.

For my money, the Mizuno system is the best of the OEM fitting systems out there. The only weakness it has is that it does not have every shaft made in the database. You definitely will not find Crazy (for example) as a recommendation coming out of their system. For that sort of thing you will need a knowledgeable to help you find a shaft that makes a 95% configuration get close to perfect.

I've had several of these since 2007. I don't think its accurate at all.

[JGalls]

I might have to pick on of these up solely to get my head around the design.