Piretti and Lajosi Putters : What's the deal?

[wmclarenf1]

Been hearing about these Piretti putters. How are these compared to your George Spirits, GF, Yamada putters? Apart from them making heavier heads, don;t know much about them.

Also, they use 11L17 carbon steel. What's the difference with SUS 303 and JUS 303 steel and what are the benefits if any?

And Lajosi putters... what;s this Damascus steel? Again, how is it different and what are the benefits if any?

Are both of these forged or cast?

How is their quality compared to their Japanese counterparts (referring to more boutique like GS, GF etc and not brands like Mizzy, Tourstage etc)

Thanks.

Edited July 23, 2013 by wmclarenf1

[Mjr. D]

There are so many putter makers out there today I think it's almost impossible to find one that is far superior to another. Go with a brand/design you like the look of as well as a company that offers customization.

Gold's is a good place to start, if you have the coin. I personally love Bettinardi, I think his putters are fantastic, especially for the price.

[julescurwen]

Lajosi are made in Victoria close to Melbourne. The pro who teaches me had one built - thing of beauty. I had my Scotty TeI3 reconditioned by Lajosi including milling the face. Brilliant result. Great craftsmenship.

I think the Damascus steel is a worked steel that is folded and folded and worked and worked...Samurai swords someone told me are made in that way...

[akapur]

Damascus steel was a type of steel used in South Asian and Middle Eastern swordmaking. Damascus steel was created from wootz steel, a steel developed in India around 300 BC. These swords are characterized by distinctive patterns of banding and mottling reminiscent of flowing water. Such blades were reputed to be tough, resistant to shattering and capable of being honed to a sharp, resilient edge.

The thought is that this type of steel in putter inserts, creates amazing feel and touch.

I currently have a Piretti and Yamada putters. Both are great, The Piretti is beautiful great workmanship and excellent feel. Good touch and balance. They use a lot of German steel in the heads. Henrik Stenson uses a Piretti putter

Ashim

[JayDM]

Damascus is a crucible steel, some people now make Damascus by folding and forge welding, but normally its made from steels of varying carbon content liquefied in a crucible, very different from the steel in a Nihonto, whereas the Japanese sword is forged and folded to remove the impurities and normalize the Carbon content of the base Tamahagane(Japanese steel smelted from iron sand in a Tatara at temperatures low enough not to fully liquefy the metal) giving it the patterned look of many different steel layers(or visually the oxide boundaries between steel layers), Damascus steels already have that pointed pattern before they are forged and worked, the forging process(not folding) would break up the more brittle higher carbon pieces and distribute them more evenly through the metal, further refining it, both the method of crafting the Japanese sword and the use of Damascus steel was done for similar reasons though, the use of both high carbon steel for strength and hardness and low carbon steel for ductility and durability.... I honestly don't know what the value of a Damascus steel would be when used in the face of a putter, but the fact is, a "Damascus steel" putter face could mean any combination of steels with varying carbon contents that produce that apparent pattern in the steel.

[wmclarenf1]

Thanks all for chiming in. Akapur and jay, thanks in particular for the detailed explanation of damascus steel.

Based on the description, I think given level of carbon is random(?), consistency of the quality may be an issue hence feel may differ from one putter to another?

[akapur]

Thanks all for chiming in. Akapur and jay, thanks in particular for the detailed explanation of damascus steel.

Based on the description, I think given level of carbon is random(?), consistency of the quality may be an issue hence feel may differ from one putter to another?

Warren

That is a good concern. I believe that most putter makers that use Damascus inserts source them from specific makers so the feel from one putter to another will change only slightly. I am sure that if you have good hands you will be able to perceive the slightest change in feel from one insert to another. I currently am trying to have one fabricated with lajosi out of Damascus steel. Will let you know how it turns out

[wmclarenf1]

Warren

That is a good concern. I believe that most putter makers that use Damascus inserts source them from specific makers so the feel from one putter to another will change only slightly. I am sure that if you have good hands you will be able to perceive the slightest change in feel from one insert to another. I currently am trying to have one fabricated with lajosi out of Damascus steel. Will let you know how it turns out

Cool! Thanks. The look of Damascus steel intrigues but like gf, I need to be convinced it puts out a superior roll. I'm starting to get convinced about gf for their first gen horizontal mill.

Edited July 23, 2013 by wmclarenf1

[JayDM]

With the way technology has improved over the years, specifically in this instance, metallurgy, it's very easy for them to be consistent, modern steels are so fantastic and so exact, its in no way, shape, or form a guessing game.... If someone making putters is using a Damascus steel I highly doubt that they're just grabbing whatever comes out of a crucible, I have no way to be certain, but I can be reasonably sure that whatever is going into the Damascus steel are going to be materials that have some positive affect on some aspect of putting, I would also bet that its a fairly exact material(s) and that each and every billet they're using is extremely similar in composition.... Warren, better forward roll will probly come more from the milling then from the particular steel, pick the steel you like the feel of and improve it with a milling pattern that works for you, and weighting and specs that fit your game...

[wmclarenf1]

With the way technology has improved over the years, specifically in this instance, metallurgy, it's very easy for them to be consistent, modern steels are so fantastic and so exact, its in no way, shape, or form a guessing game.... If someone making putters is using a Damascus steel I highly doubt that they're just grabbing whatever comes out of a crucible, I have no way to be certain, but I can be reasonably sure that whatever is going into the Damascus steel are going to be materials that have some positive affect on some aspect of putting, I would also bet that its a fairly exact material(s) and that each and every billet they're using is extremely similar in composition.... Warren, better forward roll will probly come more from the milling then from the particular steel, pick the steel you like the feel of and improve it with a milling pattern that works for you, and weighting and specs that fit your game...

Very valid point about the milling jay. Thanks for chiming in again.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The face milling, design, etc.. will play a bigger part in feel than the material alone.

For performance like golf clubs having the proper specs is a huge deal. Far too many people don't adjust their putters.

imo no one can tell the difference between GSS vs J.I.S SUS303 if all things are equal. When you look at it's contents they are identical in make up. non JIS 303 is pretty much the same as well but you can see the difference in the minerals if it was tested.

Then there is preference, I like light milling and a sound slot for ultra fast greens as well as 340g heads. I like soft, deep milling for slower greens up to 380g heads. After all that I still switch between neo mallet & anser style just to give them breaks which seems to help my game.

btw Sasaya-san does Damascus inserts, German silver as well.

[RIduffer]

The face milling, design, etc.. will play a bigger part in feel than the material alone.

For performance like golf clubs having the proper specs is a huge deal. Far too many people don't adjust their putters.

imo no one can tell the difference between GSS vs J.I.S SUS303 if all things are equal. When you look at it's contents they are identical in make up. non JIS 303 is pretty much the same as well but you can see the difference in the minerals if it was tested.

Then there is preference, I like light milling and a sound slot for ultra fast greens as well as 340g heads. I like soft, deep milling for slower greens up to 380g heads. After all that I still switch between neo mallet & anser style just to give them breaks which seems to help my game.

btw Sasaya-san does Damascus inserts, German silver as well.

I am assuming you meant German Stainless Steel and not silver. If not, can he source South African Copper, I believe that to be the most conductive for transferring positive putting energy to the ball.

[wmclarenf1]

I like light milling and a sound slot for ultra fast greens as well as 340g heads. I like soft, deep milling for slower greens up to 380g heads....

Chris,

I'm still learning about putters here... how does a deep mill give a soft feel and presumably a light mill a more crisp feel?

[akapur]

The face milling, design, etc.. will play a bigger part in feel than the material alone.

For performance like golf clubs having the proper specs is a huge deal. Far too many people don't adjust their putters.

imo no one can tell the difference between GSS vs J.I.S SUS303 if all things are equal. When you look at it's contents they are identical in make up. non JIS 303 is pretty much the same as well but you can see the difference in the minerals if it was tested.

Then there is preference, I like light milling and a sound slot for ultra fast greens as well as 340g heads. I like soft, deep milling for slower greens up to 380g heads. After all that I still switch between neo mallet & anser style just to give them breaks which seems to help my game.

btw Sasaya-san does Damascus inserts, German silver as well.

Chris,

I'm still learning about putters here... how does a deep mill give a soft feel and presumably a light mill a more crisp feel?

The groove pattern on putter faces effects the amount of :jump" the ball has just after impact. The theory is that the deeper the grooves the less the ball jumps and so begins its roll quicker . In that sense the ball will move further given that its roll expends less energy on a straight path then one that is ariborne and then wobbles down the line. So in Chris's point the grooved putter is better on slower green and the non-grooved putter is better on quicker greens. Some people perceive the groove putter to have a softer feel because the ball moves smoothly of the face and begins to roll quickly. The less grooved putter will have a crisper feel since the ball hits the face more with "pop" and jumps before it rolls. It must be noted that dynamic loft will have a great effect on the roll and feel as well.

Edited July 24, 2013 by akapur

[JayDM]

I'm pretty sure I've seen one of his inserts listed as "German Silver" on the Ryu Zen putter I think it was, I've always been curious about that, any info on the benefits?.... I've always thought of J.I.S sus303 and GSS as basically the same metal, I've seen your testing which proves that pretty conclusively, I believe the sus303 had slightly more chromium, which is the element that makes steel "stainless steel", a steel alloy with more that 10.5% chromium is considered a stainless steel.... When I think of the base head material for a putter I would general think standard carbon steel(s20c, s25c) vs. stainless(gss, sus303). Can anyone clarify a few things about the base Gold's Factory putter heads? I've seen two, one that looks very similar to a Scotty Newport and another(believe its the GF00A) that looks similar to the other but with slight differences, any info on the differences on these two heads? Which is shorter from heel to toe? Both have a plumbers neck, any other base heads from Gold's with a shorter neck or a flow neck? Any other base heads from Gold's period(blade sahpe maybe)? Does he still have any base heads in carbon steel, some of his older base heads I've seen in carbon steel, but any of the newer models all use sus303. Chime in guys.

[wmclarenf1]

The groove pattern on putter faces effects the amount of :jump" the ball has just after impact. The theory is that the deeper the grooves the less the ball jumps and so begins its roll quicker . In that sense the ball will move further given that its roll expends less energy on a straight path then one that is ariborne and then wobbles down the line. So in Chris's point the grooved putter is better on slower green and the non-grooved putter is better on quicker greens. Some people perceive the groove putter to have a softer feel because the ball moves smoothly of the face and begins to roll quickly. The less grooved putter will have a crisper feel since the ball hits the face more with "pop" and jumps before it rolls. It must be noted that dynamic loft will have a great effect on the roll and feel as well.

Thanks again for the very clear explanation akapur. Maybe that's why my old kitada felt softer than my GS mono 3. The milling although a different pattern was deeper on the kitada and I found that overly mushy and sort of numbed feedback for me.

[supo]

Jay. ive got a 3 differnt golds styles.

one is a "private stock no2"

one a SUS 303

one a GSS 350

the private stock looks sleeker and longer

the 303 is bit squarer adn th e GSS is higher shorter chunkier.

i dotn KNOW .......... if thast true but to my eye thats what i immediatly get.

i think the privae stock now is the tiger tribute model..

and ive never seen another GSS.

i prefer the look of the private stock.

i like the feel of the GSS. much better , iu think its thicker all roundness helps me think its better.

the sus 303 bec its silver, i dont really have an opinio positive or negative on.

its just"is"

put it like this

id never sell the PSno2

[JayDM]

Thanks for the info mate, solid as always. I'm constantly thinking of a putter done by the master and I get a million and one ideas running through my head and cant seem to make any choices, I know I like the original horizontal PZ milling in an insert, but beyond that I overthink it. Then I think about having something re-done and cant figure out which head.... soooo many choices.

[supo]

ok............ ive had a dozen done by him now.

the equation is pretty simple......

take ur BEST putter. the one u really really love.

THE one...

send it to tario.

get him to look at it.

get him to suggest someting

do it.

only one caveat to this process.

get the original horizontal PZ milling IF u like a soft but incredible controled fwd roll.

the diff is noticeable

i think u have to hit the ball slightyl harder but the end result is perfection

in hawaii i played with 17 putters form every one.

the clear.................... clear................ best ones were the golds modified ones

and the best of the best

was I-drives master piece.

which ive COMPLETLEY plagerised on a new build im getting back soon !!!!!!!

[wmclarenf1]

Anymore feedback from Piretti and Lajosi owners? Still gaming them?

[nambo]

Hey Art,

I have been gaming a Piretti Teramo centre shafted 365g for a few weeks now. I like it. It's face balanced and feels good with my straight back and through stroke. It has a sort of pearlescent finish that looks like thick varnish. Sound/feel is soft muted and not at all clicky like the the SUS303 GS mono M1. It has less loft, 2.5 degrees which suppose to make it roll faster.This wouldnt be good if you had a forward press though. I have been making more 5 footers so overall i'm pretty happy with it.

[wmclarenf1]

Thanks for chiming in Nam. I'm considering a Cw II buy the dealer here does not have stock. As for loft, no concerns as I ain't no Mikelson but I will die for his wedge play lol.

Edited July 25, 2013 by wmclarenf1

[nambo]

I'm no big fan though he was ultra clutch on the back nine on Sunday.

[wmclarenf1]

I think this is a Machine putter but this Damascus steel and finish is increasingly fascinating. Somehow, how Odyssey does it doesn;t seem to stand out but how so called indie putter makers do it... very nice.

[wmclarenf1]

Nearly pulled the trigger on this ....

Edited July 28, 2013 by wmclarenf1