Question - JDM - best materials but lacking in innovation compared to US equipment...

[Mjr. D]

JDM gear is undeniably made of better materials, across the board, but one thing I've noticed is that you never see any JDM companies utilize aerodynamics in their driver designs, or any of the physics proven concepts you see with US equipment. I'm not a big science guy but they say you can't argue with physics, so it's tough to say aerodynamic designs are a gimmick. Unless I'm mistaken, I can't think of any JDM drivers utilizing this technology...

Why is that? Also, the new 915 Titleist drivers and the Nike drivers utilize the bower slot/bar thing which is said to act as a spring... things like that. I keep seeing a ton of nice JDM drivers being released but nothing too groundbreaking... Am I a stupid asshole and don't know what I'm talking about or do you guys somewhat agree? I realize Japan culture is that of a purist approach so I can understand why a lot of companies don't like adjustable drivers or moveable weight technology or Callaway's moveable plug thing but I'm mostly just referring to aerodynamics and things like that, that aren't really too gimmicky...

Thought?

[dreamingkid]

I think you are comparing to new Ping G30. It is very innovative and different from all others. However, JDM companies does consider aerodynamics just as much as USDM companies. Also, most of current designs done by USDM are already done by JDM. I mean look at the design of Ping G series. Doesn't it reminds you of Ryoma???

JDM drivers already had it's phase of compression channels. Mystery, Muzik, Ryoma and few others already produced drivers with speed channels, variable thick/thin crown locations, Nitrogen filled, thin driver face, etc. There are alot more going on inside the driver head. JDM is superior in sense that they keep innovate and keep new technology with aesthetic simplicity unlike USDM. just my two cents.

[ooss]

If the innovations from the US equipment don't really provide you any improvement, would you still call them innovation? When Titleist 913s hit the market two years ago, they were introduced with "new technologies" that would provide more distance, as all other companies always do. But if you spend a few minutes watching some of the tests results, you would find that, ironically, 910s may give you some more distance if not the same.

[Vegaman]

Vega did the aero thing, and still does with the Makser patents they bought and refined. Must have been 10 years ago. I have had 2 Vega drivers and really liked them, especially the original DAF. I remember my golf buddies with their USDM of the rack drivers having a chuckle when I showed them the DAF driver. Same guys that now are babbling about the aero dynamic designs of their current drivers..

[Mjr. D]

Good, I'm glad I'm wrong, actually.

[idrive]

What I've noticed more than anything.... What was once old is now new.

Lets take the "slot" for example. Tmade would make you think they just invented it when

in reality it was invented/produced many many years a go.

This is why I never threw my clothes away from 30 years a go. They're in style now.

[stevopagolf]

I would say the TM GLOIRE RESERVE is pretty advanced with the ceramic face tech.

My Titleist VG3's with the tungsten sole are pretty innovative. I can't see some of the innovation on irons on Romaro for example.

In general the innovation of JDM is equal to or better than USDM.

[Vegaman]

I'm glad you started this thread, reminded me about that old Vega head. Gonna dig it out and have a go with it again

[lykato]

It doesn't matter whether its JDM or U.S. made. They're all +/-5-10 yards from each other and it's not going to make you hit any farther.

[RLL33]

This is an interesting discussion. The difference between US and JDM, innovation wise, for me seems to be captured in Tario's article about Kobayashi and his simple design tools as he worked on the t.388 driver versus the big American "ovens" with all their fancy gadgets for modeling and measurement and "Iron Byron" testing...

Kobayashi and other Japanese designers find their way to things like aerodynamics through feel, like an artist sculpting what his mind and hands are searching for. The US products hype their latest "numbers" constantly, seemingly unaware that this year's "innovation" making last year's "innovation" obsolete within months in actuality reveals their process for what it is: a bunch of overhyped BS.

I'll go with the artist's touch any day. For me, that's always where innovation comes from. And it's why I'm a JDM lover.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

USDM brands often invest in the things that have a bigger impact on marketing over performance.

We all know shafts matter, we all know that head materials and manufacturing matter, we all know new technology is important yet so many USDM brands skimp out in those areas, true? Now look at all the things that don't work that they implement.

Aerodynamics on a driver does what again? give 10 more yards? no it doesn't, but for the first 3 months the Ping driver comes out miraculously people will see the 10+ yard gain then by the time something newer comes out that 10yd gain somehow vanished. How is the air shepherd not aero or the PRGR's?

JDM brands innovate but USDM brands are not willing to pay for those upgrades unless they can be seen or marketed to joe public and that's really the bottom line.

There are too many examples about how USDM brands target the consumers brain and not the players performance.

[sbeaz]

Agreed. Or from a different perspective....

I thought (and do think) the Callaway Big Bertha Alpha is an outstanding driver. So, with the forgiveness, gravity core, etc. the performance was decent. I had to purchase an aftermarket shaft to get good performance. The deep rich metallic blue made the driver look outstanding. Well, I could just spend the money and get a JDM driver - which is DEFINITELY longer AND straighter for me. At the end of the day, I've spent the same amount and I don't have a gravity core or a SLDR mechanism or turbulators. So, in effect, wouldn't that mean that the JDM technology is AHEAD of USDM counterparts on many levels? And I won't even begin to talk about quality control, going down to Callaway to get professionally fitted and getting 'perfect' numbers that did not translate into on course performance, having my club guy refit me, etc. So at the end of the day I'm SAVING $$$ with the JDM and getting MORE technology without the adjustable hosel, etc. Why is my club head speed faster with JDM drivers than USDM? Technology.

[driverhead]

As far as innovation goes... PRGR pushes the envelope as much as any design Ive ever seen with the entire EGG line. The Taylormade Gloire line hasnt been done before also.

[Shambles]

Bottom line with Golf clubs, as with any marketed product, is that you like what you bought, and it works for you. You get attracted to a club because it has the lines that draw you, and are proud when friends and aquaintances show more than just passing admiration for it. You end up keeping it because it works for you and allows you to play a satisfactory game with the promise of better things to come.

You ever notice that the basically bathtub shape of the space shuttle looks nothing like the Flash Gordon type rockets that were designed after the V2 rocket that was made by Germany ? That's because that bathtub shape proved to be an aerodynamically sound design for the high speed and long distance glide needed by the space shuttle. You don't have that in a golf club. Likewise, you don't see the bathtub being used as a daily plane because it is impractical at the low speeds that airplanes use and would require too much power and fuel to even get up in the air. The golf club works in a space that is miniscule, except to us, and at a speed so slow that many sports cars can out run it. But the sports car is only good at carrying golf balls and the golf club is good for hitting golf balls in a confor5ming manner.

I'm of the opinion that all this talk of superior materials and design innovations are just re shuffling the same deck of cards and done to attract your attention to their product so you can see if it attracts and interests you.

Shambles

[Mjr. D]

Wow, well said and interesting post!

[xxio]

I think the true technological advancement in golf has stagnated.

Different Types of multi-layer balls, tri-ax, vft/ict/etc, low and forward CoG (in the 983E), multi-materials for weight distribution were all true game changers. Maybe not all truly felt by the players of all skill levels . That era happens to coincide with advancements in manufacturing. You can design it but you have to be able to build it and build it inexpensively. Then sell it.

As Shambles pointed out, marketing has become the focus. Even if you have the best cars, golf clubs, TVs, all consumer products have to be sold.

It happens in almost all enthusiast forums of different products. People complaining about increased product cycles, incremental advances being sold as the next big thing. We are a consumer society. In the past 6weeks I have 2 new Bettinardi wedges in my bag, just bought 3 dozen Lethals, an X2hot hybrid that is 5 rounds old, and looking into a driver change and I can say this has been my "slowest year" since the 90's as a golf consumer.

Back to topic. Japanese technology. I've mentioned some in the past 25 years. Ultralight weights yet stable shafts have been coming out, both graphite and steel. There are a lot of different balls in Japan that serve niche markets. The ceramic face has been made before but tweaked with ICT for the Gliore. I don't like the feel (only got to hit it 2xs though).

IMHO we don't get exposed to how Japan markets their product that is why we don't "see" the technological "advancements".

Edited July 31, 2014 by xxio

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I like everything XXIO just said, very insightful especially about our consumer society and his observations that this is occurring in multiple industries.

In regards to how Japan markets their tech if you look at JDM OEM's on youtube you will see it's very different than how it's done everywhere else, it's specific and visual with no bang! whap! wow! this is the BEST! +20yds Thanks Taylormade! This directly reflects how smart the brands think we are and that the least informed make the most purchases as a group.

Below an Example

Another thing I suggest is don't put much weight in the opinions of professional tour players. These guys can hit anything, they don't get to try everything, and they are paid to say nice things about their line up.

As far as "real" advancements, it still happens "sometimes" in Japan, It's more about design and materials now days but I do think shafts like the MCI, designs like the Ryoma UT, uber light weight shafts starting only this year that are stable enough for faster swingers, I saw 21g prototype shafts at the golf show. Another example although not made in Japan is product like the Mizuno JPX EIII hot metal iron and how they place their weight, more design than tech really. There are new Composite Titaniums as well like Jbeam has implemented recently over DAT55.

While it is at a trickle it's something.

Gear has always had a lot to do about the psychological and in Japan prestige, feel and emotion also plays a part, I see it similar to the auto industry where yes you can get from point A to B in a Fiat but it's so much better in a Ferrari.

PRGR is pretty ballsy and pushes the envelope, remember grip speed? it was legit just didn't gain steam.. and also ball tech is still improving at a good pace in Japan as well but we also need to remember that in the last 10 years consumers have learned to expect a lot more in both service and product and that is what really drives brands to constantly push out gimmicks so while by today's standards it seems slow, by yesterdays standards some would consider it fast.

[daamartin]

I was comparing my brand new cast US market Vokey lob wedge to my (gamer) JDM Titleist forged back-to-back the other day, hitting all sorts of (full, half, bunker) shots. Summary?

Spin - same

Feel - JDM won by a mile

Finish quality - JDM won by a mile

Durability - and this was the big surprise - JDM won by a mile, presumably because the satin chrome plating is much thicker and better quality

I'm a materials scientist and so notice every little detail about this stuff, but this little study still tells me that the materials selection and production quality is still far superior in JDM-made goods!

Also just bought a near-new set of PRGR IS3 500bl irons recently (still my favourite heads) and just can't get over the fit and finish on these things - just sublime satin neo-blade forgings. The new PRGR stuff is the same I am sure.

My 2 cents

[xxio]

Edited my previous post for grammar

[XBlueberry]

I rather pay $1000 for a driver that costs $500 to make, than a $500 driver that cost $50 to make...

[xxio]

Unless it is a prototype and requires special tooling/dies made from scratch, has gold as a major component, or less than 100 were ever made I don't think any driver will cost $500 to make.

That brings us back to technology. A huge portion of technology nowadays are shared with different industries. Lightweight but sturdy graphite, welding techniques that save time and materials. All of these result in lower manufacturing costs. Just think the Great Big Bertha Japan version (shaft was made by GD) was about $700 when that came out, the US version was a bit under $500 (or was it $450). Golf clubs are actually cheaper now. However because of marketing we are tempted to buy more often. From 1990-2000 I had 4-5 drivers. From 2000-2010 I can't totally remember but from TM alone I already had 4-5. I probably had 12-14 total in that decade. Do I feel duped? No. I bought them because they made me enjoy my game.

We don't need to defend why we spend so much on Epons, Bettinardis, Tourstages, Ryomas. We don't need to look down on the guys buying USDM.

[kaaayelll]

Excellent post...really like the last line.

[coops1967]

There's a difference between cost and value... I'm going on for 5 years with my copper-chrome Epns, and still don't see any need or time when i will have to replace them - this, to me, makes them excellent value

I once used a set of Mizuno Tp-21's ( a British model) for well over 8 years... And it's dsign is still recognizable, as it had a hump of muscle in its cavity... Just like modern Mizunos or indeed my current Epons.

It wasn't only JDM that offered this kind of value - in the US Ping used to be like this... Somewhat less than glitzy looks but were bombproof, you can see second or fifth hand sets of Ping Eye clubs that are in perfectly good nick. now, sadly you'll see reports of doodads and bits falling off and plateing peeling... Quite sad.

My vote for current or recent past usdm product that is outstanding value ( as long as a bit of open and deep face suits your eye) is the one, the only Adams 9015d driver. I still keep mine, just so my lovely little Mizuno 611 knows it can be replaced...