EPON AF-105?

[dnq22]

Agree Robbie. Finding the right balance for you is what it's about.

[Hutch]

103 feel a tad softer (more butterly) than the 105. This could be the harder face material in the 105. Not that the 105 is harsh, it still retain the signature of Epon feel. 103 spins ball too much for me. I get around 3000+ rpms. I couldn't recall what shaft was in the 103 so a direct comparison would be unjust. I have my 105 in 9.5 degree shafted with KuroKage (best performing shaft for my swing right now) in XT model 60g in X flex. Built mine in 45.25 inch at D2.5 swing weight. I launch the 105 around 10-12 degree launch angle. The Zero Kai spins even less (due to small head profile and CG close to the face) and less forgiving than the 105. I would choose 105 over anything Epon has to offer right now. Before Epons are known for their feel but lacks distance, now with the 105 they are able to incorporate both. One other most important aspect for me choosing the 105, it's one of the very few JDM drivers to have a square face angle at address (most are close even the specs say it's open!).

Not that the 105 is the longest driver out there. It's long but not the longest. I'm talking about +- 5 to 10 yards difference here so it doesn't bother me at all. I'm looking for a club that's workable enough and doesn't punish me if I miss hit a little. An analogy for the 105 to 103 would be the comparison between the Personal 1 and Personal 2. The P2 rectifies every wrong that the P1 has.

I don't know if it's just me, but I find that post Kenji Kobayashi designs are much better than before. 103 to 105, P1 to P2, Zero to Zero Kai.

I agree with you that the ease of use with the 105 is an advantage (apparently) but that can be had with the 152....for 98% of golfers who need a bit of spin, your forgetting how far you hit the ball compared to most others.

I think the modern Epon has no design features, all surface etch and paint, or the opposite, nothing at all. I think the advancements in materials and technology make a difference not the design at all, for instance you could have the p1 design with p2 technology also the 103 shape with 105 face. Its just new versus old. But I am sure if both the P1 and 103 were reseased today and never seen befor they would be better than any on the market. You get me.?

I know many on here who think the 4.6 RPM is the best driver ever and the yammy tours are the best irons ever, just so happens they are also a product of the Endo golden years.

Personaly I think the Epon design has gone backwards. They used to be ground breaking in that regard.

Zen, 103, 301, p1, 551, sus and so on, these are some of the best looking and feeling clubs ever made, I personally dont think the new gear will be remembered for its looks or will be a stand out when all said and done.

IMO

[jbird902]

103 feel a tad softer (more butterly) than the 105. This could be the harder face material in the 105. Not that the 105 is harsh, it still retain the signature of Epon feel. 103 spins ball too much for me. I get around 3000+ rpms. I couldn't recall what shaft was in the 103 so a direct comparison would be unjust. I have my 105 in 9.5 degree shafted with KuroKage (best performing shaft for my swing right now) in XT model 60g in X flex. Built mine in 45.25 inch at D2.5 swing weight. I launch the 105 around 10-12 degree launch angle. The Zero Kai spins even less (due to small head profile and CG close to the face) and less forgiving than the 105. I would choose 105 over anything Epon has to offer right now. Before Epons are known for their feel but lacks distance, now with the 105 they are able to incorporate both. One other most important aspect for me choosing the 105, it's one of the very few JDM drivers to have a square face angle at address (most are close even the specs say it's open!).

Not that the 105 is the longest driver out there. It's long but not the longest. I'm talking about +- 5 to 10 yards difference here so it doesn't bother me at all. I'm looking for a club that's workable enough and doesn't punish me if I miss hit a little. An analogy for the 105 to 103 would be the comparison between the Personal 1 and Personal 2. The P2 rectifies every wrong that the P1 has.

I don't know if it's just me, but I find that post Kenji Kobayashi designs are much better than before. 103 to 105, P1 to P2, Zero to Zero Kai.

Agreed. There is nothing special about the 103 for me. I played it for a while. Yes it was very controllable but also short. It lasted about 4-5rounds. Haven't tried the 105 but 95% of the reviews say it's a big improvement over the 103

The p1's were also a dud for me and very short. P2's much better

With those two the post KK design is definitely on top..

Edited May 20, 2016 by jbird902

[Hutch]

How do you find the AF tours?

[jimmieboi]

AF tour is too I unforgiving for me. I like in this order.

P2, Tour CB and SUS 316.

P2 is just super special. Work of art, a blade but forgiving enough that it doesn't trade off workability. Standard distance for a blade. On a side note, the 105 disguise its 460 cc very well. Good looks prefer by better player.

Edited May 20, 2016 by jimmieboi

[Hutch]

Yep. Epon are great. I have many.

Just as I see it. Can't give any other opinions than me own.

As for P1s being duds, in what way? Feel? Looks? Easy to use? Or is a dud judged by distance?

Edited May 20, 2016 by hutchy

[Spoon]

Yep. Epon are great. I have many.

Just as I see it. Can't give any other opposition than me own.

As for P1s being duds, in what way? Feel? Looks? Easy to use? Or is a dud judged by distance?

Most of the people I know disliked the p1 bec of too much spin and distance loss for its loft.

I'm with jimmieboy I think the p2>p1 and 105>103

My reasons may be different from yours but I' got to that conclusion bec of forgiveness, distance etc. looks not really a factor bec I love the looks of the p1. Just did not work for me.

I think Epons post Kobayashi is not as bad as purists think. The p2, sus 105 are all post KK and have their following Although I agree some of their stuff like putters, hybrids and wedges lack salt

I wonder who is designing their gear now? Whoever he she is Is doing fine.

[Hutch]

I think some of the post KK gear was KK design left behind. I could be wrong.

Isn't what made Epon different all about the design and feel. Not the distance??

That was my impression. There has always been better distance and spin numbers in other brands.

Epon was all about feel and looks

[Hutch]

So I need too be clear here...you fellas are saying P1s and 103s are crap???

[Spoon]

So I need too be clear here...you fellas are saying P1s and 103s are crap???

?? Did I say that?

It Just proves we all have our own preferences. You get along more with the p1 and 103

I get along with the p2 and 105.

[Hutch]

103 I like yes. As I like Most Epon gear.

I just think there was a pinnacle in design and it has passed.

[jimmieboi]

P1 and 103 are no where a crap clubs. They are great. P1 is a beauty but did not perform well as a blade. Lack in distance and not user-friendly. There are better blade out there. You would have to sacrifice workability to forgiveness. Cannot be extreme in both. P2 improves drastically in these two areas. It's a bigger head profile blade compare to my Mizuno Yoro mp69 and more forgiving as well. Nobody is looking for a distance gain in blades, they want feel and workability and forgiveness on a slight miss hit is a big plus. The P2 cracked this issue. Not that P2 is long but it's not short either.

As for 105. It solves the Epon nemesis in lack in distance. 105 is one of the longest JDM driver available in the market right now. Big plus is it's Epon which possesses its signature feel that no other golf brand can duplicate.

Now for wedge. The Personal wedge is by far the best feeling wedge there is right now. It doesn't spin ball as much as Kekku raw but decent enuf to stop the ball on a dime. If you think p2 is pretty, this Personal wedge is on another level.

The only weakness for Epon IMO is putter. They are not that special except the Zen. Too bad it's no longer being manufactured.

[jimmieboi]

Oh. I have to disagree that modern Epon lacks tech. if you were to cut one open, you would see as much as tech as any other brand. They don't do the fancy weighting cuz there are array of series to choose from to suit your game. For instance, 15x series is a shallow driver which suits those that benefit more from extra spin compare to a deep face in 10x series which are for those that want ultra low head. The newer 504d series are for those that seek for ultra forgiveness. List goes on and on for the non-conform for seniors. They do there clubs by custom fitting only to ensure you get clubs that suit your game most. And older vs newer doesn't apply to Epon as well. Epon is as timeless as Rolex or Patek watches. The Chujo Craft brand still adopts lots from 301 and Tour blade design from Epon. The Tour blade is still being manufactured and is one of the best selling Epon irons depite being release a decade ago.

I have hit a blade back in my youth (power bilt blade 20 years back). Believe it or not, I get almost identical distance as any other modern blade. It's miss hit that makes the newer ones outshines the old ones.

IMO

[dnq22]

Thank you gentlemen - very healthy, interesting and informative discussion.

Sounds like it is pretty hard to go wrong with anything EPON and it really comes down to personal preferences.

Well played all.

[Hutch]

No worries Dave

Its always good having a healthy debate, it brings out true feelings and thoughts on gear.

Am sure what ever you go with will be exciting as you work your way through the JDM jungle ;)

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I agree with you that the ease of use with the 105 is an advantage (apparently) but that can be had with the 152....for 98% of golfers who need a bit of spin, your forgetting how far you hit the ball compared to most others.

I think the modern Epon has no design features, all surface etch and paint, or the opposite, nothing at all. I think the advancements in materials and technology make a difference not the design at all, for instance you could have the p1 design with p2 technology also the 103 shape with 105 face. Its just new versus old. But I am sure if both the P1 and 103 were reseased today and never seen befor they would be better than any on the market. You get me.?

I know many on here who think the 4.6 RPM is the best driver ever and the yammy tours are the best irons ever, just so happens they are also a product of the Endo golden years.

Personaly I think the Epon design has gone backwards. They used to be ground breaking in that regard.

Zen, 103, 301, p1, 551, sus and so on, these are some of the best looking and feeling clubs ever made, I personally dont think the new gear will be remembered for its looks or will be a stand out when all said and done.

IMO

In defense of Epon :) Those cutaways and ribs or cavities in other brands drivers actually do nothing. They actually prevent and box designers into a corner. The best technology is a head that can expand and contract, well with those cavities or even too much text on a head that thickens areas restricting the expansion of the head. So Epon has it right by limiting all those frills that are based stricktly around marketing. Nike, Taylormade are offenders of this, I can say the ZY-7 is as well. All those features could be done internally to move cg placement and weight around keeping the head flexible.

But where Epon fails is in a vital area it's face technology, due to their core manufacturing process which is something they have no budget to reinvent or change the faces are too soft and it kills rebound or RBI which is why everyone has left Endo for producing drivers aside from price.

I think some peoples comments reflect this accurately, good feel but distance is meh, actually what I am told is slightly less than average and much less than drivers that are known to be longer.

[Vegaman]

In defense of Epon :) Those cutaways and ribs or cavities in other brands drivers actually do nothing. They actually prevent and box designers into a corner. The best technology is a head that can expand and contract, well with those cavities or even too much text on a head that thickens areas restricting the expansion of the head. So Epon has it right by limiting all those frills that are based stricktly around marketing. Nike, Taylormade are offenders of this, I can say the ZY-7 is as well. All those features could be done internally to move cg placement and weight around keeping the head flexible.

But where Epon fails is in a vital area it's face technology, due to their core manufacturing process which is something they have no budget to reinvent or change the faces are too soft and it kills rebound or RBI which is why everyone has left Endo for producing drivers aside from price.

I think some peoples comments reflect this accurately, good feel but distance is meh, actually what I am told is slightly less than average and much less than drivers that are known to be longer.

So in essence Epon should swallow their pride and buy some DAT55 or SP700 from other suppliers for their driver faces

[jimmieboi]

The 105 doesn't need DAT55 or SP700. It out performs those that have the tech face. I can never get more than 25xxrpms on the 105. Ultra low spin yet doesn't punish on excessive side spin. If you have 100 swing speed or more. 105 is for you. Post Kobayashi design is while lot better.

Edited May 21, 2016 by jimmieboi

[Hutch]

The debate goes on lol.

3 questions

before lets say the Kai

Was epon known for distance?

Was it known for feel?

Was it known for it beautiful design and craftsmanship

If you were a fan and loved epon gear before the P2 and your answers were no, yes, yes. Then you didn't care about distance, you liked epon for other reasons.

Chris I know you are a fan of epon haha, but I cant see any comparison of the cut out shapes of say the 103 VS any nike driver. Or any other.

The 103 is minimal marketing just a beautiful shape. Zen is just ridiculous good looking and perfection, P1s were minimalist jaw droppers that played with shape and reflection.

Cant you see my point here, or am I living in cloud epon land and just expecting to much from the best non commercial brand in the world with all the means necessary to go above and beyond.

I haven't seen an epon staffers on any tour as yet, ergo not full on commercial.

My point was they were beautiful with exceptional craftsmanship and now they dont have as much of that but more of the other. Distance and forgiveness.

Edited May 21, 2016 by hutchy

[Hutch]

If we waned to play good golf and not enjoy the gear as was pointed out earlier we would all use one set and stick with it.

For me the fun and purchase of gear is about the golf to impress mentality, be in awe of my gear when I pull it out of the bag.

I will leave old mate who plays every week with the same setof cobras to concentrate on his score and try take my money every week.

Edited May 21, 2016 by hutchy

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Im just saying Epons faces are too soft to produce the distance the OEMs desire against China & Taiwan. I don't know this from personal experience but from what many OEMs tell me. I also don't care.

It's not only the material of the face it's the manufacturing process which has them trapped.

I know the amount of OEMs using Endo has declined rapidly they may be toast or continue to live of borrow money.

[dnq22]

Chris, thank you for your insights. I wish your sentiments were more widely accepted by the second hand market - I can't seem to find cheap EPON products anywhere - they seem to be one the most sought after and highly valued golf brands available.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Part of that has to do with a very strong brand image from the very start ;)

[Duffer19]

Chris, thank you for your insights. I wish your sentiments were more widely accepted by the second hand market - I can't seem to find cheap EPON products anywhere - they seem to be one the most sought after and highly valued golf brands available.

You mean we have to lower the price of our Epon gear now just because of this post? Just for the record, I still own 4 Epon drivers, 3 sets of Epon irons and unlikely that I would give them away anytime soon.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Duffer19

[Hutch]

That is my point, they seem to be floundering in no mans land with no direction.

Kaizen mentality seems all but gone.