EPON AF-105?

[Hutch]

I keep waiting for that jawdrop experience they used to bring too the table.

Some copper SUS or P2s might do it.

The 551 wasn't original but better than.

[Duffer19]

I am still playing the copper 50 and 54 and would take out the 60* tomorrow (unused since I got them from you over a year ago, B). I think the 210 is better than the 213 especially the coppers.

[Hutch]

Yep it killed me getting rid of my set of coppers but you wanted so I gave them up. They were my paper weights for a few months.

It took me over a year to replace them, had them here for a month and still haven't gamed on the track.

P2 wedges have had a couple rounds but the Toyos have that swagger and feel I like when I take one out of the bag.

When epon was sold here on TSG my 551s came in a black samurai box with a personal letter in a black epon envelope with epon proper carbon ferrules.

That and golds have been my 2 stand out purchases and receiving of golf gear.

Thats when the job was done well and Epon was a stand out.

[jimmieboi]

Okay. I have launch monitor so I did lots of comparison between Epons and other JDM driver I have. The 105 and I repeat, is by far the lowest spinning driver I have ever tested. It's not wild either. Placing CG low and forward will inturn results side spin on off center hits. This 105, maybe due to its hard-soft face, counter act this. None of you ever mention the stringent tolerance of Epon head. Try taking OEM head or main stream head (JDM or not) to a club fitter. They would scratch their head trying to keep all the club the same swing weight. Epon's head are in the exact 2 grams (for instant) increment from long iron to pitching, thus building clubs is easy without using hot melt or lead tape. The Yoro craft in Mizuno need to hand pick. They can't take from a random batch and have same tolerance as Epon.

I think other reason why companies move away from Epon is the manufacturing price. I see that non-Endo forged, Bridgestone for example, have lower qualities. Fancy weighing tech or hollow back are just a gimmick.

Also, I hold ground to disagree that Epon lacks tech. Just because it's minimal doesn't mean that it's absence.

Edited May 21, 2016 by jimmieboi

[Vegaman]

You mean we have to lower the price of our Epon gear now just because of this post? Just for the record, I still own 4 Epon drivers, 3 sets of Epon irons and unlikely that I would give them away anytime soon.

I have the Zero driver, but for me Epon was always more about irons than woods, kinda like Mizuno. Irons are a different beast altogether, forged S20/S25 still is the premium choice so Epon isn't lagging at all when it comes to irons I think.

As for prices, I always thought Epon irons and wedges seemed to be more sought after the woods. Exceptions being the Zen and maybe 202HT Spoon.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Vegaman

[Hutch]

Okay. I have launch monitor so I did lots of comparison between Epons and other JDM driver I have. The 105 and I repeat, is by far the lowest spinning driver I have ever tested. It's not wild either. Placing CG low and forward will inturn results side spin on off center hits. This 105, maybe due to its hard-soft face, counter act this. None of you ever mention the stringent tolerance of Epon head. Try taking OEM head or main stream head (JDM or not) to a club fitter. They would scratch their head trying to keep all the club the same swing weight. Epon's head are in the exact 2 grams (for instant) increment from long iron to pitching, thus building clubs is easy without using hot melt or lead tape. The Yoro craft in Mizuno need to hand pick. They can't take from a random batch and have same tolerance as Epon.

I think other reason why companies move away from Epon is the manufacturing price. I see that non-Endo forged, Bridgestone for example, have lower qualities. Fancy weighing tech or hollow back are just a gimmick.

Also, I hold ground to disagree that Epon lacks tech. Just because it's minimal doesn't mean that it's absence.

Didnt someone mention something about 103s being closed or something, In my experience you order you get and spot on!

[Hutch]

I have the Zero driver, but for me Epon was always more about irons than woods, kinda like Mizuno. Irons are a different beast altogether, forged S20/S25 still is the premium choice so Epon isn't lagging at all when it comes to irons I think.

As for prices, I always thought Epon irons and wedges seemed to be more sought after the woods. Exceptions being the Zen and maybe 202HT Spoon.

It is only very recently the 103 has come down, that was exy for a loooong time and for good reason.

I agree the irons are the bread and butter, P1s were so accurate and soft, yes the distance was 1/2 club short but so are the AF tours.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Tolerance is a different story, money can get you that at the factory. Its not the factory itself it's how good a customer you are to the factory and what you request, for example 2 different brands at the same factory can have totally different tolerance. Cobra at Endo didn't have the same tolerance as Epon.

But yes for price your right it's expensive, a common one I heard was you have to sell 5000 pieces to break even on the mold cost, so #5001 u get a return. So if you wonder why the drivers are all so similar there you have it, they are adjustments not entirely new.

Tech is maxed out due to restrictions so what we are getting is many different and unique flavors instead of completely new dishes so Epon doesn't need to do anything different but their clubs will be somewhat similar in taste which can be good.

Last is spin, there are much lower spinning drivers that's for sure, just maybe not for your swing that you have found yet.

Epon makes great clubs the only unfortunate thing is they are a company with no soul like the many others out there. You could replace the entire staff and It wouldn't make a drastic difference.

Anyway there is a new factory in Japan that the best minds from Endo left to start. You guys have seen and hit a little of it already, I will share more about them next March.

[Hutch]

Next for me is the black and gold zodia driver, if it feels like the woods it will be great.

Also wouldnt mind the new Modatr Driver.

Is the Modart Draw bias Chris? and can the zodia be set with those small weights?

[jimmieboi]

I had my Yururi irons loft check and it turns out gap between each loft varies so much and lie angle as well. Your right, tech is max out from USGA regulations on clubs. I have hit a lower spinning head. Just not that forgiving that the 105 has. 105 is as forgiving as 504d but workable as the Zero.

Replacing staffs without any drastic change is a good thing. Take Crazy for example.

Edited May 21, 2016 by jimmieboi

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I had my Yururi irons loft check and it turns out gap between each loft varies so much and lie angle as well. Your right, tech is max out from USGA regulations on clubs. I have hit a lower spinning head. Just not that forgiving that the 105 has. 105 is as forgiving as 504d but workable as the Zero.

Replacing staffs without any drastic change is a good thing. Take Crazy for example.

Crazy, Today I still deal with the same people since the very start over 10 years ago outside of the president, unfortunately they are not the same co. since that wild situation.

It's always the brands responsibility to re-check specs after the products are made including Kyoei and Yururi, how unfortunate.

That said Endo has their fair share of tolerance issues with various OEMs they have produced but you can expect a lot higher standard with their own house label.

[Spoon]

That is my point, they seem to be floundering in no mans land with no direction.

Kaizen mentality seems all but gone.

Thank you for your opinion.

[Hutch]

Thank you for thanking me.

[robbie]

Thank you for allowing me to watch you gentleman thank each other !

[dnq22]

AF tour is too I unforgiving for me. I like in this order.

P2, Tour CB and SUS 316.

P2 is just super special. Work of art, a blade but forgiving enough that it doesn't trade off workability. Standard distance for a blade. On a side note, the 105 disguise its 460 cc very well. Good looks prefer by better player.

Jimmieboi, how would you compare the TourCBs to the 302?

Agree with you on the P2s - I love them but still getting used to the P2 wedges - beautiful on the full shots but currently prefer the Yururi Raws around the green.

[dnq22]

103 feel a tad softer (more butterly) than the 105. This could be the harder face material in the 105. Not that the 105 is harsh, it still retain the signature of Epon feel. 103 spins ball too much for me. I get around 3000+ rpms. I couldn't recall what shaft was in the 103 so a direct comparison would be unjust. I have my 105 in 9.5 degree shafted with KuroKage (best performing shaft for my swing right now) in XT model 60g in X flex. Built mine in 45.25 inch at D2.5 swing weight. I launch the 105 around 10-12 degree launch angle. The Zero Kai spins even less (due to small head profile and CG close to the face) and less forgiving than the 105. I would choose 105 over anything Epon has to offer right now. Before Epons are known for their feel but lacks distance, now with the 105 they are able to incorporate both. One other most important aspect for me choosing the 105, it's one of the very few JDM drivers to have a square face angle at address (most are close even the specs say it's open!).

Not that the 105 is the longest driver out there. It's long but not the longest. I'm talking about +- 5 to 10 yards difference here so it doesn't bother me at all. I'm looking for a club that's workable enough and doesn't punish me if I miss hit a little. An analogy for the 105 to 103 would be the comparison between the Personal 1 and Personal 2. The P2 rectifies every wrong that the P1 has.

I don't know if it's just me, but I find that post Kenji Kobayashi designs are much better than before. 103 to 105, P1 to P2, Zero to Zero Kai.

Jimmieboi, what other driver shafts have you tried and liked?

[Hutch]

Thank you for allowing me to watch you gentleman thank each other !

Haha...pats on the back all round.

[jimmieboi]

TourCB is more of a bladed club compare to the 302. Both aren't blade so they don't feel pure like the AF Tour or the P2. I rather prefer feel of the blade as I grew up playing my first set of club a blade.

There are many good shaft out there especially from the big 3, Mitsubishi, Tour AD and Fujikura. I find KuroKage the only shaft I can hit at full speed and controllable. Aldila Rouge also a very shaft almost identical to KuroKage. I haven't try New speeder series yet, heard lots of good stuff about it. Tech can improve in shaft especially with today's manufacturing tech.

Now that we have push CT/COR to the limit of USGA rules, I don't think tech can go any further. It's more of a finding an optimum ball characteristic for your swing, thus the weighting/loft/lie adjusting system we see in modern club. Or just do a proper fitting with the pros. Saying Epon is outdated in their tech is an understatement. Their manufacturing process is a pinnacle in golf. Take P2 for example. No other golf industry can make a club like P2 nor have I seen one like the P2.

[dnq22]

TourCB is more of a bladed club compare to the 302. Both aren't blade so they don't feel pure like the AF Tour or the P2. I rather prefer feel of the blade as I grew up playing my first set of club a blade.

There are many good shaft out there especially from the big 3, Mitsubishi, Tour AD and Fujikura. I find KuroKage the only shaft I can hit at full speed and controllable. Aldila Rouge also a very shaft almost identical to KuroKage. I haven't try New speeder series yet, heard lots of good stuff about it. Tech can improve in shaft especially with today's manufacturing tech.

Now that we have push CT/COR to the limit of USGA rules, I don't think tech can go any further. It's more of a finding an optimum ball characteristic for your swing, thus the weighting/loft/lie adjusting system we see in modern club. Or just do a proper fitting with the pros. Saying Epon is outdated in their tech is an understatement. Their manufacturing process is a pinnacle in golf. Take P2 for example. No other golf industry can make a club like P2 nor have I seen one like the P2.

OK, thanks Jimmieboi. Agree with you on the P2s. Have you tried the Crazy or Basileus shafts?

[dnq22]

BTW, thank you all for the comments / observations / insights - very informative.

[Vegaman]

It is only very recently the 103 has come down, that was exy for a loooong time and for good reason.

I agree the irons are the bread and butter, P1s were so accurate and soft, yes the distance was 1/2 club short but so are the AF tours.

Yeah, true about 103 being expensive for a long while. I just have a general feeling that historically Epon irons get snapped up really rather fast on the BST for example..The current situation notwithstanding! Same for stuff like the 202HT spoon and the 902 in lower lofts, that stuff usually gets sold in a hurry. The drivers, I feel, hang around for longer. Might be wrong, it's just something I thought I have noticed. Edited May 22, 2016 by Vegaman

[jimmieboi]

With proper fitting, you don't have to sell anything. They mostly sell cuz they didn't get fitted and can't game the clubs.

For Crazy shaft, I find that the Crazy-Abe era was better. I have the LY-01 Hot, CB-80, CB-80 LS Nior, CB FW-50 Sigma, FW-80. Post Abe that I have demo are Regenisis CB 80ii and FW-80. The older crazy are a little more stable. Some may find the newer ones are more user-friendly but for tighter faster swinger will find them less stable. Premium quality nonetheless. I never get along with Baselius. Too whippy for me. TRPX is better IMO.

Good shafts don't have to be in 80T, 90T. Almost all the brand supplies from Torray. It's the design that's more important. If you have an ultra stable swing, go for 7D. Otherwise go for the big three, they are great at a fraction of the boutique brand's price.

Edited May 22, 2016 by jimmieboi

[dnq22]

With proper fitting, you don't have to sell anything. They mostly sell cuz they didn't get fitted and can't game the clubs.

For Crazy shaft, I find that the Crazy-Abe era was better. I have the LY-01 Hot, CB-80, CB-80 LS Nior, CB FW-50 Sigma, FW-80. Post Abe that I have demo are Regenisis CB 80ii and FW-80. The older crazy are a little more stable. Some may find the newer ones are more user-friendly but for tighter faster swinger will find them less stable. Premium quality nonetheless. I never get along with Baselius. Too whippy for me. TRPX is better IMO.

Good shafts don't have to be in 80T, 90T. Almost all the brand supplies from Torray. It's the design that's more important. If you have an ultra stable swing, go for 7D. Otherwise go for the big three, they are great at a fraction of the boutique brand's price.

Interesting. I have the CB-50 Black and just bought the CB-80 LS Noir. Interesting that you prefer the Kuro Kage XT. Appreciate the comments.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

With proper fitting, you don't have to sell anything. They mostly sell cuz they didn't get fitted and can't game the clubs.

For Crazy shaft, I find that the Crazy-Abe era was better. I have the LY-01 Hot, CB-80, CB-80 LS Nior, CB FW-50 Sigma, FW-80. Post Abe that I have demo are Regenisis CB 80ii and FW-80. The older crazy are a little more stable. Some may find the newer ones are more user-friendly but for tighter faster swinger will find them less stable. Premium quality nonetheless. I never get along with Baselius. Too whippy for me. TRPX is better IMO.

Good shafts don't have to be in 80T, 90T. Almost all the brand supplies from Torray. It's the design that's more important. If you have an ultra stable swing, go for 7D. Otherwise go for the big three, they are great at a fraction of the boutique brand's price.

I would call it Tachibana era (pres) or Hashimoto & Takahashi era as they designed and made the shafts ( now with loop ). Abe is more a top manager and has been let go at TRPX lately.

As someone who has tried nearly every crazy shaft the designs and materials of the new ones are very similar. Not better or worse actually they fit people a bit better and carry a higher satisfaction rating with our customers than the old. Your spot on in saying they are slightly lighter and seem less stable in some of the regens yet STP & 9 series are more player. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the 9 actually if you ever get the chance, if you like stable with a quicker transition, I think it's a beaut.

If you like Crazy specifically they, TRPX and LOOP are all UD unidirectional made shafts which carry a love or hate trait about them IMO.

7D is one of the few brands I know not using Torray but saying an ultra stable swing is better we don't see. The majority of people who love 7D shafts are not what I would call fast or stable swingers they swing slower and are often higher handicaps. Yet the most vocal opinions are from the "forum crowd" or where the most stable swings may be. 7D shafts are custom and actually do just a good job for higher handicaps than any other category there is no group they are better or worse for. As their biggest dealer worldwide and with our collection of post 45 day owner reviews I think the custom aspect is what makes it so special requesting anti-right or left, feel in tip/mid/butt, and launch angle is so much easier than looking at an OEMs EI curve or description and trying to figure it out on our own.

[jimmieboi]

I think I used the wrong word. By stable I mean consistent. If your swing not the same most of the time the 7D might not be right. Better get a lessons till swing is consistent. I would love to try the Crazy 9 series but ultimately I'll probably get fit at 7D in Tokyo soon.

I play with some of the pro from Asian tour. Some, very very few, get endorsed by Epon and use their clubs on tour. Most pros same that tech aren't in the head anymore. As long as they look visually fine, they focus more on the shaft. By that I assume tech is in shaft rather than head.

Edited May 22, 2016 by jimmieboi