45* and 46* wedges - what's next, a 22* pitching wedge?

[jeffy]

Forgive me, but this strong loft business being pushed by the OEMs is getting to be absurd. Before long we'll see complete ten wedge "sets" starting with a 22* "pitching wedge", followed by seven "gap" wedges, then a SW and a lob. I heard that Trip Kuehne already carries five "wedges"; he just has five more to go!

I'm old fashioned and a curmudgeon, but don't players really need/want more distance with the driver, not the "wedges"? A 45* or 46* "wedge" is just a weak nine iron (or a standard 9 iron twenty years ago). Come to think of it, my 9 iron is 45*, so I can have it restamped "PW", then I'll have five "wedges" too!

To accomodate these strong "wedges" and short irons, the OEMS need to squeeze the loft gaps down in the long irons or they would become unplayable. To me, it makes absolutely no sense that players accept a set with 3* loft differences between the 3 and 4 iron, and the 4 and 5 iron, when they tend to rarely hit the long irons (and often avoid them), but with the scoring clubs, which are used constantly, they accept an 8 or 10* loft gap between the PW and SW, or clutter up the bag with "gap" wedges. Even with a "gap" wedge, the loft gaps can be 6 or 7*.

If the OEMs insist on selling sets with such strong lofts, then there is really no need to include a 3 iron in a set of irons (just stengthen the 4 iron a degree or two). Most handicap players can't handle a 3 iron and they don't need a 4 iron that is just 3* stronger then their 5 iron. Yet the OEMs won't do this because the gross profit on each individual club is probably 80% or more and they are foremost in the business to sell as many clubs as possible.

Sorry, I know I'm fighting a lost battle, but I just felt like a rant this morning. Anyway, I'm sure Callaway and the other OEMs only have the best interests of their shareholders...er, I mean, customers, at heart.

Have a nice day!

Jeff

[DuffVader]

youre not alone, most people buying clubs dont pay attention to this sort of thing. they just see the ads or hear people say that "i hit this iron longer than that one" with out realizing why.

like someone said once " i dont fear the man who can hit his wedge 150 yards, i fear the man who hit is 104 yards."

[jboy]

Agreed,

I had the similiar discussion last week on the course with a pensioner about the old british 1.62 diameter ball, I advocate that I hit it as far as a ProVx, the old Dunlop 65 was a much better wind ball than the American sized ball and more workable. If anything golf balls these days are more expensive and a little more durable.

Looking at driving yardage increases, it's minimal. A club head is a club head, all it does is get in the way of the golf ball and compress it and if you gave

Els a R7 or an Old Tour Burner, he'd hit them the same distance, these big bean cans only aid the off center hits, keeping them straighter and a little longer, hitting it on the button doesn't gain you anything.

John Daly

2004

4 John Daly 302.4

2003

2 John Daly 314.3

2003

1 John Daly 306.8

2002

1 John Daly 306.7

2001

1 John Daly 301.4

1999

1 John Daly 305.6

1990

8 Davis Love III 276.6

2004

8 Davis Love III 299.2

So J Daly hasn't seen any real big increase over 5 years even though he's changed shafts and head manufactures (Callaway, Titleist, etc) in this period plus using these 'better balls'

Best example is Davis Love, who in 97 changed from persimmon to state of the art Titanium has gained 25 yds in 15 years !!!! And some of the clowns round here state they've gained 30 yds when frankly they couldn't burst a grape with their Sunday Best

complete bull sh*t

Delofting Irons was a marketing ploy to get Joe Bloggs to buy gap wedges he doesn't need (in fact it's so bad that manufactures no longer sell 9 iron sets in the U.K and Europe), put simply we don't get as many clubs for our bucks now.

Not to mention it's destroyed the art of shotmaking.

It's all Kool-Aid from Al'Cushnet lunatic fringe golf equipment fundamentists... brianwashed we are.

Yes, I have nice gear but it not going to make me play any better than a set half the price but it looks real good on the first tee , that's it.

:P

I think a good idea would be to make the Masters a persimmon, blades, steel shaft, v groove, no lob wedge only tournament which leaves me wondering who the hell would win it ??

[phillypete]

And the lunar landing was a fake!!!

oh sorry... well like what you have read above the equipment advancements haven't really helped the pro's. Its us hacks who get all the benifits...

I hit my old persimmion about 200 on a good swing, my 983K is 250 carry.

as far as the loft changing we also have to look at the lengths in relation to the lofts.

We find these loft increase most in clubs who are aimed at high handicappers, often labled as "game improvers". These clubs are designed to minmize the amount of side spin placed on the ball and help it get airborn.

So provided that the clubs live up to thier billing in the two catagories I jsut mentioned, then all the user has to do is get the club to the ball. so as long as the golfer makes solid contact the club will take care of the rest...

So how does the OEM make it easier to get the clubhead on the ball. They make the shaft shorter. but now that the shaft is shorter the ball will not go as far so what do they do? They increase the loft. And since the clubhead design descreases side spin and helps the ball get into the air already the increase in loft will not effect the playability.

I think that these changes aren't spurred to make you buy more wedges. If this was the case why would callaway, TM, or others be doing this when they know buy forcing us to buy wedges they are just lining the pockets of Cleveland and Titliest who control almost all of the marketshare in wedges?

[shoe295]

Humm...I came back to playing in 1995, and all I had at the time was a set of Walter Hagen forged blades cuz that was all we had in the late 70's..so I hit a bunch of clubs and bought the Cobra oversize set which had a PW at 43*...THAT was ridiculous..now I am not inclined to say that was done so I had to buy a gap wedge, I tend to believe it was done to say these clubs hit the ball further than any other club on the market..and they were right..due to the strong lofts..now I admit I was not very sophisticated in those days(no wise remarks about nothing changing)...and for what they were they were good clubs cuz ball go far...now if I'd stayed a hack(see previous pareth)..I would love those clubs today just cuz they were stupid easy to hit and really long...and I would buy a gap wedge because 43*-56* is a really large gap...so I could be wrong...but the guy I sold them to loves them cuz he hits them as far a I hit my Hogans thus making him happy..

As for Driver advances..I like the look of Persimmon..I like the fact that I hit the ball 30yds farther than I did 30 years ago much more :!:

just my 2 cents

[jboy]

And if you truly believe you are 30 yards longer then you never actually hit a persimmon wood full on or it was all spec'd wrong for your swing (weight, shaft, loft). Given a current persimmon driver with a 45" Graphite shaft and the ProVxs., you wouldn't notice the difference... the old persimmon drivers were up to 2" shorter so you can't fully compare 80's golfing to 2004 tecno becuase the actual specs don't marry up.

I switched in the mid 80's because Metal was cheaper and easier to maintain plus you could try many different lofts off the peg

Bottom line is the companies deinvested in persimmon because the margins are so low and it's a labor intensive process making these woods, Tour pros don;t play it because they don't get played to pay it, in the world of the chump, you've bought all the hype, it was all Kool-Aid, there is no real difference.

So to blow some Myths out of the water:

Frequently Asked Questions

What is the COR of persimmon?

The COR of Persimmon is .78 The current COR ceiling as directed by the USGA is .83 In theory this translates into a possible distance advantage of 2% for the higher COR Titanium driver. The reason I say, in theory, is because actual test results don't duplicate what is supposed to happen in theory. We had Golf Labs, an independent testing facility in California, test our SMART2 Driver against a legal COR Titleist driver. We built the clubs keeping everything the same in both clubs except the head material. Same shaft, same flex, same length, same launch angle, and same swing speed and impact point which was determined by the golf robot. The results of the test were that the Smart2

Driver hit the ball 1.8 yards further than the Ti driver. We have also player tested where both drivers were hit under the same conditions. The results show there is no difference in distance between the two head materials.

Frequently Asked Questions

Have your questions answered. Ask a question | View other FAQs

Why do higher cor drivers not hit the ball further in real life?

To understand you first have to understand COR. This is not the trampoline effect that marketing people show it to be. A simple explanation is that when two objects collide, there is a loss of energy during the collision. When a club face strikes a golf ball, the golf ball is deformed (flattened). There is a loss of energy when the ball flattens. If the face of the club gives a little, then the ball doesn't flatten as much and less energy is lost in the collision and more is retained by the ball. The more energy retained the faster the ball leaves the face and the further it can travel. To take full advantage of the slightly higher COR of the Titanium driver a couple of things have to happen. 1) The swing speed of the head has to be fast enough to allow the face of the Ti driver to "give" a little. If the swing speed is not high enough, there is no give in the face and no advantage for the thin face. 2) The ball has to be struck in a very small area of the face (dead center) for the face to "give". Hit it off center even a little and you lose the advantage. In most real life situations, the clubhead speed and the dead center hit don't occur to make a difference.

If persimmon performs just as well as metal, why don't you see more golfers playing with it?

The most significant equipment improvement has been the ball. Balls fly further and spin less than ever before. When the solid/two piece ball was introduced the USGA and everyone else knew you could hit it further no matter what the head material. However, these balls were hard and didn't spin like the wound balls, and couldn't be controlled around the greens. The USGA decided these balls would never be an issue because the tour pros would never use them. High handicap golfers looking for more distance might use them, but that would be okay. As a result of that. Then advances in technology allowed ball manufacturers to make the two piece ball softer and with the ability to control spin rate. When the new balls were introduced to the PGA Tour driving averages went up 10 yards. The second most significant equipment improvement is the shaft. Graphite shafts are lighter and more consistent now, which allows the golfer to swing a lighter or longer club. Golfers can swing a lighter and longer club faster, generating more clubhead speed, which allows them to hit the ball further. When metal woods were introduced they were quickly married to lighter and longer graphite shafts, since the technologies of both rose at about the same time. Persimmon, which was traditionally married with a heavier and shorter steel shaft was then being compared to the metal clubs with lighter and longer graphite shafts. This was an unfair comparison and was a huge factor in why golfers began thinking Persimmon isn't as long as metal. On a then largely uneducated public, it made sense to most golfers that metal produced a longer drive than wood. There is another interesting factor that works in concert with this, and that is the sound that a metal club makes at impact. It is a louder sound that assumes more kinetic energy, but is largely smoke and mirrors. We have heard the clangs and tings on our home course many times, only to walk to the ball and discover that the loud noise we heard was more bark than bite. In other words, the loud sound of a metal club when compared to the pleasing thump of a Persimmon wood has fooled some golfers into thinking that metal is superior. Yet another factor responsible for PGA Tour pros hitting the ball so far is their physical conditioning. These guys train and work out like other athletes, foregoing the traditional drinking and smoking hard life that was such a hallmark of golden age golfers. Modern golfers are stronger, more flexible and in better condition than previous generations of golfers. Inaccuracies in the press and advertising world of the golf business use the combination of all these factors to promote a club's superiority over another, and Persimmon has gotten lost in the process. A part of the innocence of the golfing public has made them susceptible to misleading marketing messages. For example, the furor talked about at the beginning of the 2003 PGA Tour schedule when Ernie Els switched from brand x to brand y, and while in the process gaining 10 or 15 more yards by switching from a brand x's driver to a brand y driver. Els' additional length then had nothing to do with the head material of the club, but everything to do with switching from a steel to a graphite shaft and using a different ball that got him closer to the optimum spin rate he needed to maximize his ball flight. What the average golfer sees is that the brand y driver hit it farther, missing the point (because it was rarely given) that his specs had been adjusted. This shadowing of the facts to sell a new offering, a driver that incidentally made brand y's previous model introduced a year earlier obsolete, has played into the shelving of Persimmon as a choice for golfers. And from a business standpoint it is as simple as the overhead it takes to create a Persimmon golf club; no stock market golf conglomerate in their right mind would vote to invest in the craftsman and materials needed to manufacture Persimmon woods on a large scale. Not when they can cast and glue a metal club at a fifth of the cost, save a ton of capital, then pay the superstars ridiculous amounts of money to play and promote their clubs. We have ten craftsman (most have been with the company for over 20 years) who walk every head made here in Louisville through the more than 100 hand operations it takes to complete a Persimmon golf club. They are virtually the last paid artisans of their kind. So given all that, and to answer the question, most golfer's don't realize Persimmon is still a good choice for them. And that's our mission, to keep Persimmon in the game as a choice - a very good choice - for all golfers.

[primo]

jyboy, I have to completely disagree with you. Let me preface by saying that I love persimmon heads, I own a few and play a Honma 3 wood with graphite shaft once in a while just for kicks. feels great, but doesn't perform nearly as well my SUPER HYTEN Kasco :lol:

First of all I do think that COR makes a difference. Do you think that Tiger would make such a big deal out of it if it wasn't? I've hit illegal drivers before and I do feel they are longer.

Next I don't believe people buy driver heads necessarily because they are longer, they buy them because they are more forgiving. Everyone needs a little help off the tee, even pros. With the lighter metal heads, designers are able to put the weight where it is most effective. The next level are the composites which are even lighter. I loved my fusion, I thought it felt great and was forgiving as all hell. Persimmons are not that easy to hit, they are extremely small, the sweetspot is about the size of pinpoint and they are heavy.

Your comment about the pro not playing them because they get paid is complete BS. Vijay is a Cleveland staff player, yet he uses a TM driver. Tiger uses a Scotty Cameron, do you think they are getting paid? get real

[phillypete]

Is someon rehashing these b/c we didn't have the internet back then to discuss this?

I thought everyone knew TI was better, at least everyone that has played golf.

Pick up an R500 and pick up your favorite persimmons and go hack some balls. If you cant tell hands down the R5 is better than maybe you would have better luck at bowling.

Sorry to be harsh but this is just silly.

Sure pros's play some clubs b/c they are paid to, but not all. Look at all the out of production FW's in play.

[DuffVader]

if someone wants to send me a louisville driver to compare head to head with my gemini, id be more than willing to give an unbiased review.

itll never happen because the mfrs that do still make persimon drivers KNOW that they cant compete. if someone from one of these persimon mfrs takes offense to this, email me and ill get you my mailing address where you can send the driver.

[phillypete]

if someone wants to send me a louisville driver to compare head to head with my gemini, id be more than willing to give an unbiased review.

itll never happen because the mfrs that do still make persimon drivers KNOW that they cant compete. if someone from one of these persimon mfrs takes offense to this, email me and ill get you my mailing address where you can send the driver.

I'd even go as far as saying the worst of the TI drivers is better than the best of the Persimmons.

This is like someone saying wood bats perform better than metal ones.

[Pepe8714]

if someone wants to send me a louisville driver to compare head to head with my gemini, id be more than willing to give an unbiased review.

itll never happen because the mfrs that do still make persimon drivers KNOW that they cant compete. if someone from one of these persimon mfrs takes offense to this, email me and ill get you my mailing address where you can send the driver.

I'd even go as far as saying the worst of the TI drivers is better than the best of the Persimmons.

This is like someone saying wood bats perform better than metal ones.

Actualy, the wood/metal bat analogy is bulls**t, that is unless you can somehow get them to weigh the same....

I'd be willing to bet tat If I set up a persimmion driver, 9.5*, with a 660x, at 44.5", D2, and I had my DF, same specs, that on flushed hits, there wouldnt be that much distance difference. Maybe 10-15 yards. Mis**ts are a completely different story though...

Pepe

[shoe295]

Well jboy, what I stated was I am 30 yds longer today than I was 30 yrs ago...and 30yrs ago I had only equipment from the 70's .. I know no one who was individually fit for equipment back then...I was not implying that my distance increases are due to the fault of Persimmon but to all the advances in equipment that have occurred over that period of time...every now and then I could swing my old Haig driver into a Titleist 100 compression wound ball and get that sucker to go 255...today I hit one or two drives a round 285...give me technological advances everyday..when I bought clubs in 95 did I buy into the hype..you bet...have I lost sleep because of it...nah..I use KZG and Tourstage woods (metals if you prefer) today not because they get played on tour but because they work really really well for me...and I for one am grateful I don't have to hit those old clubs any more, especially as I get older and less flexible in body and mind..thank you technology

I've read the testing results on Louisville's drivers and they do perform really well in the testing environment..in fact some day I'll probably have to buy one because I like the way they look, am fascinated by the prospect of a large wooden head powered by a graphite shaft, and have no where to demo one.

Competition is tough in every business, survival is not assured by simply having the best product. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your tone and if so please feel free to suggest I go bugger off, but you appear to be whining about the unfairness of it all ...can only suggest get over it and be about the things you can control...

just my opinion ...and as such only worth something to me.. :D

[jboy]

I know when I die and go to play in the golden golf course in the sky that there won't be any Titanium 450cc clubs in the bag of clubs that St Peter gives me, it will be a deep faced MacGregor M43 Tourney persimmon with the tightest grain pattern you've ever seen, with a leather grip and maybe a Rifle shaft in it :P

Someone else want to elaborate on their afterlife Iron choice ??

[shoe295]

I know when I die and go to play in the golden golf course in the sky that there won't be any Titanium 450cc clubs in the bag of clubs that St Peter gives me, it will be a deep faced MacGregor M43 Tourney persimmon with the tightest grain pattern you've ever seen, with a leather grip and maybe a Rifle shaft in it :P

Someone else want to elaborate on their afterlife Iron choice ??

that would indeed sir be heaven...I need to contemplate the Iron choice but you've definitely got the driver on the money :!: :!:

thanks for the visual