What if....

[Lowpro]

what the people want drives the market- alot of factors go into the price points.. i do not see a one company makeing a cheaper product in the same factory for US sales verse a better one for japanese market.. components for the clubs are made all over the world- like you mentioned.. why-- cheap labor is the main reason right.. the japan market brings in more dollars due to the % of golfers is low and the availability of golf courses to the masses.. still a sport for the rich i beleave* you get what you can get $$ wise in buisness.. right now it is a buyers market in the US.. callaway,taylor made or ping with a name brand shaft> $299.. crazy low price.. $799 TP driver with 757 speeder.. can't keep them in stock* so there is a small market for HIGH priced drivers etc.. just a flooded market right now.. i'm lost now in what i was trying to state** have a good week.. time for a night cap*

[yardbeatles]

Here area coulple of "What If's" For ya.

What if Nike USA came out with an 800.00 driver? Would you buy it?

What if you could simulate the $200 movable Weight technology... with a $3.00 roll of lead tape?

What if .830 COR meant .830 COR and there wasn't anything you could do about it?

What if the avarage driving distance on the PGA tour went up 30 yds in 10 years and the scoring average stayed around the same?

What if you hit it 50yds further... into the woods... and then couldn't find your $5 golf ball?

What if you guys are out of your minds and should be spending the $1500 of that $3000 you spent on clubs that don't make you better on Swing lessons and sports Psycology that WOULD make you better?

[Sgt_Slaughter]

Here area coulple of "What If's" For ya.

What if Nike USA came out with an 800.00 driver? Would you buy it?

What if you could simulate the $200 movable Weight technology... with a $3.00 roll of lead tape?

What if .830 COR meant .830 COR and there wasn't anything you could do about it?

What if the avarage driving distance on the PGA tour went up 30 yds in 10 years and the scoring average stayed around the same?

What if you hit it 50yds further... into the woods... and then couldn't find your $5 golf ball?

What if you guys are out of your minds and should be spending the $1500 of that $3000 you spent on clubs that don't make you better on Swing lessons and sports Psycology that WOULD make you better?

To answer your last question, there are some guys on here that are good players and buy new equipment to tweak their game. Then there's other's that just love buying new gear and playing with it. You don't need a psychologist to tell you to move on after a bad shot and forget it. You can teach that to yourself.

[8thehardway]

To answer your last question, there are some guys on here that are good players and buy new equipment to tweak their game. Then there's other's that just love buying new gear and playing with it. You don't need a psychologist to tell you to move on after a bad shot and forget it. You can teach that to yourself.

I went to a sports psychologist. He asked me why I ever took up golf to begin with. He said if I had carefully invested all of those golf dollars and had taken a second job instead of practicing and playing I could be retired by now... and playing golf!

[Sgt_Slaughter]

I went to a sports psychologist. He asked me why I ever took up golf to begin with. He said if I had carefully invested all of those golf dollars and had taken a second job instead of practicing and playing I could be retired by now... and playing golf!

And that's why they are a waste. They tell you what you should have done and not what to do.

[Broken Stick]

I do think that Japanese equipment is of very good quality. No doubt about that. In the US price point is very important part of the market. Like someone said the average US golfer would do better by getting a ball retriever then a new Japanese/US driver. However I think you have to pick your poison. While I would love to have some Miura irons, I don't. I have Titleist because of price. I have had Fuji, Diamana, and have ordered an Axiv shaft. I do not like any domestic shafts on the market…..Accuflex being the exception. I have a Bridgestone 3 wood but I hit an Infinity 3 wood better. I have hit a Taylormade XR and like it but I hit my Nike SQ much better. Unless your livelihood depends on your golf game play what you like and what looks cool. And Matt made an excellent point. Where are all the Japanese clubs on the PGA Tour? The shafts are all over the place but where are the clubs?

[TTLam]

I think with some of the pricing on premium US Irons, drivers, etc, they really aren't any different from Japanese items. Look at the top of the line TM irons, where it's 1000+ for a set. R7 425 TPs are also retailing for the price of a japanese driver. And they don't even come with the same premium graphite shafts that japanese drivers come with.

I think Japanese clubs aren't on the tour because the club manufacturers would really want US buyers to see clubs that they can buy (US domestic) rather than Japanese clubs. Pro golfers probably have easier access to US clubs too. I think that's crucial for them because if they ever need a replacement they can't risk having to wait for the club to get shipped from Japan. Now that's probably the case for golfers who don't have major contracts and can choose what they want to play. The ones that do, obviously have to play US clubs because of their contracts.

Thanks what I think :tsg_smilie_wink:

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Where are the Japan Only clubs on the U.S Tour?

Where are the U.S Only clubs on the Japan Tour?

Product lines stick to their own respective countries. Do you think Jim Furyk was given a W505 to test against his W506? I don't think Paula Creamer enjoys putting Tourstage balls in precept sleeves. Do you think V.J liked the Cleveland launcher head cover so much he put it over his old R7? Do you think Fred Couples was given Tourstage clubs to sample? I don't think Billy Andrade was offered custom mizunos or the UX2 etc.

The player wants to win and please the sponsor and the sponsor wants to maximize their return on the investment of the sponsorship. Thats not possible with the player promoting unavailable products.

Fact is you gents know more about Import gear than the pro does in most cases. No one is handing them import gear for free to test, why would they? and for sure they are not gonna pay for a golf club. The players agent would never let it get to them if its not going to make them a cent.

There is even a bias from OEMs when their sponsored players don't use a shaft they approve of. For example I know more than a few players that have been urged away from particular shafts simply because the OEM has an allegiance with another shaft co, even if the shaft is obviously producing better results for the player.

It simply creates no buzz or profit having a player use equipment that will never become available.

[Broken Stick]

Where are the Japan Only clubs on the U.S Tour?

Where are the U.S Only clubs on the Japan Tour?

Product lines stick to their own respective countries. Do you think Jim Furyk was given a W505 to test against his W506? I don't think Paula Creamer enjoys putting Tourstage balls in precept sleeves. Do you think V.J liked the Cleveland launcher head cover so much he put it over his old R7? Do you think Fred Couples was given Tourstage clubs to sample? I don't think Billy Andrade was offered custom mizunos or the UX2 etc.

The player wants to win and please the sponsor and the sponsor wants to maximize their return on the investment of the sponsorship. Thats not possible with the player promoting unavailable products.

Fact is you gents know more about Import gear than the pro does in most cases. No one is handing them import gear for free to test, why would they? and for sure they are not gonna pay for a golf club. The players agent would never let it get to them if its not going to make them a cent.

There is even a bias from OEMs when their sponsored players don't use a shaft they approve of. For example I know more than a few players that have been urged away from particular shafts simply because the OEM has an allegiance with another shaft co, even if the shaft is obviously producing better results for the player.

It simply creates no buzz or profit having a player use equipment that will never become available.

Good point. Money drives the train. I assumed as much but it is good to here from the source. Take the TM r7 425 and the Reax shaft issue. Yet it seems easy to find a import shaft on the PGA then then the club head. My guess is that there is not a big market in the US for great shafts yet.

[sigmamason]

Well, if I were to believe all rumors, then I by now I would believe:

• According to an email I received, I am in line to inherit a large sum of money by helping out Mrs. Sese-seko, widow of the late President of Zaire :tsg_smilie_wink:
  

Glad to know that I am not the only relative of Mrs Sese-seko

[fhantom]

J-Club ... it won't be wrong to go for it .....

[Henry]

Did anyone notice the pro's at the Players Championship who were sponsored by Srixon all had hats that had the Z-Steel logo on the side of the hats. I thought this was a Japan only product. Why would they be promoting it in the U.S.? You think we may get these fairway woods?

[Phillip Alexander]

Where are the Japan Only clubs on the U.S Tour?

Where are the U.S Only clubs on the Japan Tour?

Product lines stick to their own respective countries. Do you think Jim Furyk was given a W505 to test against his W506? I don't think Paula Creamer enjoys putting Tourstage balls in precept sleeves. Do you think V.J liked the Cleveland launcher head cover so much he put it over his old R7? Do you think Fred Couples was given Tourstage clubs to sample? I don't think Billy Andrade was offered custom mizunos or the UX2 etc.

The player wants to win and please the sponsor and the sponsor wants to maximize their return on the investment of the sponsorship. Thats not possible with the player promoting unavailable products.

Fact is you gents know more about Import gear than the pro does in most cases. No one is handing them import gear for free to test, why would they? and for sure they are not gonna pay for a golf club. The players agent would never let it get to them if its not going to make them a cent.

There is even a bias from OEMs when their sponsored players don't use a shaft they approve of. For example I know more than a few players that have been urged away from particular shafts simply because the OEM has an allegiance with another shaft co, even if the shaft is obviously producing better results for the player.

It simply creates no buzz or profit having a player use equipment that will never become available.

Well boss, I'll go one step further. Some of the irons in the pros bags look nothing like the retail versions, however the stamping is exactly the same.

Phil Mickelson's driver is anything but retail, with Phil spending 3 weeks in the Cally factory tinkering with the COG.

Fact of the matter is, the pros equipment may look like the retail stuff, but my suspicion is that it is anything but.

I think Billy Andre would like to use the UX2, however as you have stated there is no commercial value for the sponsor in letting him do so.

As I have been saying for some time, the best golf equipment in the world is available through this site, and the members are not shy about giving their opinions good or bad.

The needs of the handicap golfer, are also significantly different from the touring pro. I suspect Tiger could get it around in even par with a stick of celery.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[bma725]

I do not have an MBA and probably need one to understand price points. I just simply do not understand how and why these U.S. manufactures believe the U.S. market will not bear a higher price for clubs if they have advanced technology similiar to the Japan market or even why Japan manufacturers believe it could not market its Japan only clubs in the U.S. with the higher pricing. While some have told me there is only a small number of people who would buy this stuff (like TSG's) making it unfeasable, I do not believe that. There are ways to market products to a small minority of people making it worthwile. It happens all the time. Why no manufacture understands this is beyond me!! Sorry for the rant but I find this to be a very interesting topic!

Its not a question of Japanese manufacturers not trying to bring their high end products over here, rather its a fact that many Japanes manufacturers have tried and failed at it because the US market won't go for it...and the manufacturers end up harming themselves so much in the process that they have to all but abandon the US. In the 1980s and early 1990s scores of Japanese manufacturers tried to come over, Daiwa, Yonex, Yamaha, Maruman, Kasco etc. None of them were successful with their high end stuff, the market just wasn't willing to spend that much. The lower level Daiwa and Yonex stuff did well, but the expensive stuff bombed so badly that it killed the product lines. Even Tourstage for example was harmed by bringing its high priced stuff over, when they first came in 1986. The market just wasn't willing to support it. The planned expansion of the line, and the import of more clubs was scrapped, because they couldn't get the purchases they were looking for.

The US market is a very unforgiving market. You can't get high prices for stuff with no background, ie a company can't come over and start selling drivers for $600 and irons for $1200 without being somewhat established, the consumer won't go for it. But on the flip side, a company can't come over and try to start small with lower level stuff and then gradually build its way up to high priced stuff. Consumers very rarely forget a companies initial image, and if that initial image was of a company that made lower priced stuff that was perceived as lower quality....no matter what they do its very hard to change that.

Lastly, while you may not want to believe it, there are very few people willing to spend a ton of money on clubs. The overwhelming majority of US golfers are people who buy their clubs at rummage sales, or discount stores or buy the complete set of 14 clubs and bag/pull cart at a mass retail sporting goods store and own that set and only that set for as long as they play golf. The number of people who actually go to golf shops, and buy new clubs frequently is minute. The number of people who fit into that group and would willingly spend $100s if not $1000s more is even smaller. For any manufacturer to be succesful catering to that group of people they would have to dominate the market, and get nearly all of them to play their clubs and only their clubs. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth their while. And that kind of monopoly is just not going to happen.

[8thehardway]

Its not a question of Japanese manufacturers not trying to bring their high end products over here, rather its a fact that many Japanes manufacturers have tried and failed at it because the US market won't go for it...and the manufacturers end up harming themselves so much in the process that they have to all but abandon the US. In the 1980s and early 1990s scores of Japanese manufacturers tried to come over, Daiwa, Yonex, Yamaha, Maruman, Kasco etc. None of them were successful with their high end stuff, the market just wasn't willing to spend that much. The lower level Daiwa and Yonex stuff did well, but the expensive stuff bombed so badly that it killed the product lines. Even Tourstage for example was harmed by bringing its high priced stuff over, when they first came in 1986. The market just wasn't willing to support it. The planned expansion of the line, and the import of more clubs was scrapped, because they couldn't get the purchases they were looking for.

The US market is a very unforgiving market. You can't get high prices for stuff with no background, ie a company can't come over and start selling drivers for $600 and irons for $1200 without being somewhat established, the consumer won't go for it. But on the flip side, a company can't come over and try to start small with lower level stuff and then gradually build its way up to high priced stuff. Consumers very rarely forget a companies initial image, and if that initial image was of a company that made lower priced stuff that was perceived as lower quality....no matter what they do its very hard to change that.

Lastly, while you may not want to believe it, there are very few people willing to spend a ton of money on clubs. The overwhelming majority of US golfers are people who buy their clubs at rummage sales, or discount stores or buy the complete set of 14 clubs and bag/pull cart at a mass retail sporting goods store and own that set and only that set for as long as they play golf. The number of people who actually go to golf shops, and buy new clubs frequently is minute. The number of people who fit into that group and would willingly spend $100s if not $1000s more is even smaller. For any manufacturer to be succesful catering to that group of people they would have to dominate the market, and get nearly all of them to play their clubs and only their clubs. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth their while. And that kind of monopoly is just not going to happen.

Excellent analysis! However, I'd like to make a few points.

At premium prices a monopoly isn't necessary.

In 1985 there was no internet and technological innovation (graphite shafts and metal woods) was in its infancy. Golf was harder for beginners back then and there were no design choices to speak of. People stayed with one set of clubs forever because a new set was little from an old set.

The pace of life was also slower: cell phones, faxes, mp3 players and other forms of instant access/communication/gratification had not engendered the feeling that immediate results were possible and required.

While most golfers today still play low end stuff there are signs of change: Pro V1s have enjoyed strong sales and hybrids and wedges are hot. This buying trend is a departure from pre-1990 golf and indicates an increased consumer awareness and willingness to adapt.

I'm surprised that smaller, non co-branded Japanese OEMs have ignored the one move that would increase brand awareness, test the market and perhaps become a profit center onto itself - form a publishing consortium and start a Golf magazine for US distribution focusing on equipment. If marketed correctly, it would be a spectacular vehicle for sales.

[eureka3432]

:tsg_smilie_whistle: Ooohh man!!!!!! I always hate any discussion about this.......made me regretting of what i already had. Anyhow, It's the Indian, not the arrow who determines the result .....

[8thehardway]

:tsg_smilie_whistle: Ooohh man!!!!!! I always hate any discussion about this.......made me regretting of what i already had. Anyhow, It's the Indian, not the arrow who determines the result .....

Not entirely true, kemosabe. Look at the endless reruns of the 1986 Masters which Jack won at age 46 - everyone's hitting persimmon drivers and these are the most talented warriors in the tribe. Now they've all switched from flint heads to steel, outsourced the feathers to fletch factories in China and dumped their wooden bows for exotic compounds loaded with science and sleek design which can kill a settler at 300 to 350 yards instead of 275. They are also grabbing GPS systems to better locate their quarry.

Settlers are now such easy targets Washington is imposing technological limits on bows and arrows which they wouldn't do if it was the Indian and not the arrow. Don't 'Bury Your Heart at Wounded Knee'... ditch the persimmon, buy the G Field NC-1s and your scalp collection will again be the envy of the tribal counsel.

[asianplow]

I went to a sports psychologist. He asked me why I ever took up golf to begin with. He said if I had carefully invested all of those golf dollars and had taken a second job instead of practicing and playing I could be retired by now... and playing golf!

That's pretty cool, you can kill two birds with one office visit, your sports psychologist and your personal financial advisior.

[LilCallaway]

The US market is a very unforgiving market. You can't get high prices for stuff with no background, ie a company can't come over and start selling drivers for $600 and irons for $1200 without being somewhat established, the consumer won't go for it. But on the flip side, a company can't come over and try to start small with lower level stuff and then gradually build its way up to high priced stuff. Consumers very rarely forget a companies initial image, and if that initial image was of a company that made lower priced stuff that was perceived as lower quality....no matter what they do its very hard to change that.

That's not necessarily true. Look at Honda and Hyundai. They started off making vehicles that weren't that good. Look at them now.

The knowledge of the golfing public is still changing. I remember when none of my friends knew about Fujikura. How many do you think know about Mamiya, Ozik, Diamana (red), Grafalloy Axis, Aldila VS, and a ton of others? And those are just shafts! The kicker is that when they see me play some of these things, they think that's why I beat them!

There are a ton of golfers lacking in knowledge of product and what really matters. If these two ever catch up with each other, watch out. But don't worry, cause it'll never happen.....

[bma725]

That's not necessarily true. Look at Honda and Hyundai. They started off making vehicles that weren't that good. Look at them now.

Look how long it took them to get there. Honda first came to the US with motorcycles in the 1950s, they brought their first car in 1970....but it wasn't until the late 1980s/1990s that they went from being considered a nicer low end car to being considered one of the best. Even today Hyundai has image problems, its still behind companies like Subaru, Mitsubishi etc in terms of how the public perceives them. The product may be getting better, but perception still has them at the low end.

he knowledge of the golfing public is still changing. I remember when none of my friends knew about Fujikura. How many do you think know about Mamiya, Ozik, Diamana (red), Grafalloy Axis, Aldila VS, and a ton of others? And those are just shafts! The kicker is that when they see me play some of these things, they think that's why I beat them!

There are a ton of golfers lacking in knowledge of product and what really matters. If these two ever catch up with each other, watch out. But don't worry, cause it'll never happen.....

Its not a question of lack of knowledge, its a question of caring. The vast majority of US golfers don't care about their equipment, they don't want to/can't afford to spend the kind of money required to play higher stuff, they don't have any interest in making a committment to the game that usually comes with investing a lot of money in products.

You mention your buddies, I assume these are people who play and or practice fairly regularly. Doing that puts you/them in a very elite group, because most of the golfing population in the US doesn't do that. Most people practice rarely if at all. They play a couple of times a year...and even thats a maybe. Thats the problem with judging the US golf community, because its size and demographics are grossly skewed. When the NGF or USGA or whomever does these surveys, the guy who plays 4 times a week, the guy who plays 10 times a year, and the guy who played once in his life 3 years ago all get counted equally. But there's far more of the latter two groups than the first one, and the first one is the one who does most of the buying of big name new clubs. So even if they get all the knowledge of all the high end Japanese stuff, there still is a limit based on the number of people.

[Phillip Alexander]

Look how long it took them to get there. Honda first came to the US with motorcycles in the 1950s, they brought their first car in 1970....but it wasn't until the late 1980s/1990s that they went from being considered a nicer low end car to being considered one of the best. Even today Hyundai has image problems, its still behind companies like Subaru, Mitsubishi etc in terms of how the public perceives them. The product may be getting better, but perception still has them at the low end.

Its not a question of lack of knowledge, its a question of caring. The vast majority of US golfers don't care about their equipment, they don't want to/can't afford to spend the kind of money required to play higher stuff, they don't have any interest in making a committment to the game that usually comes with investing a lot of money in products.

You mention your buddies, I assume these are people who play and or practice fairly regularly. Doing that puts you/them in a very elite group, because most of the golfing population in the US doesn't do that. Most people practice rarely if at all. They play a couple of times a year...and even thats a maybe. Thats the problem with judging the US golf community, because its size and demographics are grossly skewed. When the NGF or USGA or whomever does these surveys, the guy who plays 4 times a week, the guy who plays 10 times a year, and the guy who played once in his life 3 years ago all get counted equally. But there's far more of the latter two groups than the first one, and the first one is the one who does most of the buying of big name new clubs. So even if they get all the knowledge of all the high end Japanese stuff, there still is a limit based on the number of people.

Fact of the matter is it's all about scale and perception. The OEMs sponsor the touring professionals, who golly gosh all use this years model of their sponsors product. This allows the OEMs to move large quantities of this years model.

When I purchased my Mizuno irons, it was because a lot of top ameteurs used them, Tiger and Sergio, to name two. My view is TIGERS Titleists were little different to the Mizunos they replaced, however they were different to the retail Titleists.

Nick Stites, the guru clubmaker works at Nike, and the better Nike pros get their clubs custom made by him. For $10,000 you can go to the Titleist factory, they will give you a couple of lessons, and then custom make a set for you.

In my view the best deal going in world golf is the custom made Mizunos through TSG. An extra $250 over retail and some input from Chris, you will have a set like a touring pro, designed especially for you. If you like great clubs, this deal will make you very happy. There maybe some conditions on where they can be delivered, however work with Chris on this.

The really snazzi gear will never be retailed through main stream USA, nor could the manufacturers of it provide it in the volume necessary to do it.

Just my 2 cents worth. :tsg_smilie_cool:

[PxExG]

Tom Stites

[ramizuno13]

Fact of the matter is it's all about scale and perception. The OEMs sponsor the touring professionals, who golly gosh all use this years model of their sponsors product. This allows the OEMs to move large quantities of this years model.

When I purchased my Mizuno irons, it was because a lot of top ameteurs used them, Tiger and Sergio, to name two. My view is TIGERS Titleists were little different to the Mizunos they replaced, however they were different to the retail Titleists.

Nick Stites, the guru clubmaker works at Nike, and the better Nike pros get their clubs custom made by him. For $10,000 you can go to the Titleist factory, they will give you a couple of lessons, and then custom make a set for you.

In my view the best deal going in world golf is the custom made Mizunos through TSG. An extra $250 over retail and some input from Chris, you will have a set like a touring pro, designed especially for you. If you like great clubs, this deal will make you very happy. There maybe some conditions on where they can be delivered, however work with Chris on this.

The really snazzi gear will never be retailed through main stream USA, nor could the manufacturers of it provide it in the volume necessary to do it.

Just my 2 cents worth. :tsg_smilie_cool:

I agree with everything except one point. The best deal in town is to get fit by the Companies professional clubfitter. At Mizuno USA, everthing is made the same. The only option the pros get is more shaft selection and custom grinding. You also get the warranty. But, again the ticket is the fit!

[daamartin]

Part 1:

In Australia we are at least 6 months behind when it comes to new gear releases, and I think the general public don't know as much due to lack of demo days, advertising etc (small population base here). Having said that, there are a small number of people around who are golf equipment mad. And guess what, more often than not these guys/ girls will have Japanese gear in their bags, Japanese shafts, etc. With our close proximity to Asia, and growing Asian population base in a very multicultural land, we do have some access to a nice mix of stuff (even if it is slightly used). Many of our pros play in Asia and therefore we see a wide range of equipment played on our small local tour too- I think this trend will increase.

Part 2:

I am a Materials Scientist and have really enjoyed looking at how the "materials revolution" of the past few decades has impacted our sport - probably most of all the polymer science employed in the fiercely-competitive ball market, and the application of composite and damping theory to modern shafts and heads. But what really makes me :tsg_smilie_smile: is having a bag full of gear that looks good, is manufactured with top class fit/finish from the "best" materials, and most importantly is properly fit and feels orgasmic when I put my best swing/stroke on it. It's the only hobby I spend money on and my wife knows how much joy I get out of it - so it's part of our family budget (my wife plays too, so I have to get her set up as well!). No different to my mates who spend $ '000s on new surfboards, mountain bikes, sound systems, cars, booze, gambling........

feel better now

[sly_sam]

The way it is with me, I buy the clubs that work the best for me. I also use Ebay for most of it because golf is too expensive without it. I got a brand new Nike SasQuatch off ebay for $250 US, and it came with an Aldila NV 65. One of the best deals I've ever gottan off them. I got my X Tour irons for $600 from the same place. Buying golf equipment isn't so you can shove the price tag in your playing partners face, so you think they think you look loaded. This just makes you look like an insecure jerk. What I'm trying to say is spending large amounts of money on all these new clubs won't always work. So the best clubs for you aren't always the most expensive or the most popular. You just have to educate yourself in what's what, and do some real world testing. So like one of you said, it's the indian, not the arrow in the end. The club doesn't mean anything if your not there to swing it. Whether it be a persimon driver or the latest new craze of hi tach ones, you still have to hit it right to get the results. If a guy tops his driver and it and it goes 30 yards with an old persimon driver, do you think he'll hit a 200 yard top with a $700 driver from this years batch?