Above_Beyond Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hey Everyone! I was sitting her thinking to myself about the advantages of a smaller driver head. As it is I play a 325cc offering from KZG (its a great driver - nice sound and ultra penetrating ball flight). Anyway I cant stand 460* toasters and I know alot of pros are scaling down their drivers (AK is playing a 380 (ish)) and I belive Tiger is also somewhere south of 400. Anyway what do you gurus of the golf club think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supo Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Sub400 is punchy 425 i find to be the limit of my ability driver wise. There is a much more compact solid feel to a well struckhit with my tour heads but i love the safety feeling of the460s . Def the penetrating flight is great and ive found on windy days i prefer the smaller head for some reason i feel more confident, but on perfect days.....LET THE BIG DOG eat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) While testing has proven the optimal size for clubhead and ball speed is something in the range of 390cc's there's no getting around the loss of consistancy on off center hits. Having said this if the industry mananged to produce a small model with a hot face let's say 80% of it being sweet spot theres a good chance the better ball stricker could potentially see advantages. Another fact regarding smaller heads is much less stress due to shaft defamation, one of the early problems with larger 460cc heads was the stress it placed on shafts as the center of gravity moved away from the tip of the shaft. It was proven that very small incremental movements away from the shaft actually created abnormally high pressures far greater than that of smaller cc heads. This is what started the great shaft trends we see today with carbon fiber overlaps to reinforce the tip areas of the modern shafts in an effort to rein in these tremendous forces. For the better player end result of using a MODERN smaller volume head under 400cc's could be more consistancy (less shaft defamation) and increased ball speeds...BB Edited February 12, 2011 by BigBen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 they aint really scaling down, maybe some of them are, but AK for example didnt game that Dymo head in 460cc to begin with. 460cc is retail model and guys like AK game tour prototype heads that almost always never make it to retail. the rest of it is marketing bs. it does seem tho that this year there are some scaled down new retail releases ie you see 440 instead of 460 etc, even looks like a trend. i wonder why the industry is starting to drop that whole bigger is better thing, maybe materials and manufacturing got better and they no longer need to inflate them silly to achieve same results ? Hey Everyone! I was sitting her thinking to myself about the advantages of a smaller driver head. As it is I play a 325cc offering from KZG (its a great driver - nice sound and ultra penetrating ball flight). Anyway I cant stand 460* toasters and I know alot of pros are scaling down their drivers (AK is playing a 380 (ish)) and I belive Tiger is also somewhere south of 400. Anyway what do you gurus of the golf club think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 The 380ccc head's are back in Japan. Top TourStage players are playing their new prototype R driver which comes in at 385cc's and Ryo Ishikawa is gaming the new EZONE Type 380 by Yonex as well. I do however think that the Epon AF102 is a good example of a 460 driver that has many of the same attributes that smaller heads do in regards to feel, face depth, and pear shape. When you get below 400 the pear just really starts to look super sexy. I'm sure these new 380's feel amazing at impact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stalemate Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 My father never liked the big driver heads. he stills plays with his old Callaway. So i want to buy a driver under 400cc, is there only the Yonex available now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 No you have a few more options than that: Yonex, KZG, Miura, RC, and (I think Mizuno) (maybe more than that!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) I'm excited to hear that 380cc's is making a comeback, it's very smart and in modern trim with hot faces and new materials I would argue superior. Shorten the shaft and you have a bonified contendor, think Mizuno 300s on protein shakes, oh I could only imagine how AWESOME they feel...ok I want one NOW! BB Edited February 13, 2011 by BigBen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 amen; im 5'6' and I get way better performance out of a significantly shortened shaft. Stock clubs are for people 5'10"+ so its important to keep in mind shaft length when you are of smaller stature :) I'm excited to hear that 380cc's is making a comeback, it's very smart and in modern trim with hot faces and new materials I would argue superior. Shorten the shaft and you have a bonified contendor, think Mizuno 300s on protein shacks, oh I could only imagine how AWESOME they feel...ok I want one NOW! BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The marketing behind 46 inch plus driver shafts is totally bogus, I don't care how tall somebody is it's very difficult to control shafts at this extreme length, I'm vertically challanged as well and my drivers never stretch past 44.5' if i can help it...BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 The marketing behind 46 inch plus driver shafts is totally bogus, I don't care how tall somebody is it's very difficult to control shafts at this extreme length, I'm vertically challanged as well and my drivers never stretch past 44.5' if i can help it...BB well if you think about the dynamics of a longer shaft, you end up with a flatter swing, which makes squaring the club face consistently border line impossible. Which in turn makes a "huge" semi sweet spot desirable... which brings you to a larger club head, which leads you to a longer shaft.... and so on ad infinitum..... Break the karmic circle of crappy drives: Shorten the shaft, drop the toaster off in the landfill, get a human sized club head with a shaft that isnt out to compensate for shorter shafts elsewhere - HIT MORE FAIRWAYS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 You got it, thats absolutely spot on! The golf business continues to try and refine a flawed design, let's shift gears and move this cosmic circus back into the ring...BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 i agree about shorter shafts and more control and hitting more fairways and all that but what you write about flatter and squaring club face is utter nonsense. anyways the reason for all those evil things you talk about is consumer demand because majority of people who buy drivers with any regularity want one thing the most and that is distance. they dont care about the fact that the real distance comes from a sound golf swing and no club no matter how good gonna buy them distance in any significant way to compensate for their swing. they just wanna hit an occasional good one past their buddies. so they wanna buy more distance and since they cant buy a sound golf swing manufacturers are happy to oblige and that what drives their designs for the most part. people see tour players bombing it and they wanna do the same and while most of them can afford the latest extra distance frying pan very few of them are loaded enough to play golf courses as manicured as on tour, instead they play real world golf courses with knee deep rough and such where hitting fairways is much more important. so the simple truth of this is that there is demand and there is supply. TSG here is great place to find niche market custom gear if you are not happy with whats generally available but its a niche market nevertheless. preaching to average consumer about shorter distance and hitting more fairways aint gonna sell whole loads of clubs. well if you think about the dynamics of a longer shaft, you end up with a flatter swing, which makes squaring the club face consistently border line impossible. Which in turn makes a "huge" semi sweet spot desirable... which brings you to a larger club head, which leads you to a longer shaft.... and so on ad infinitum..... Break the karmic circle of crappy drives: Shorten the shaft, drop the toaster off in the landfill, get a human sized club head with a shaft that isnt out to compensate for shorter shafts elsewhere - HIT MORE FAIRWAYS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 i agree about shorter shafts and more control and hitting more fairways and all that but what you write about flatter and squaring club face is utter nonsense. anyways the reason for all those evil things you talk about is consumer demand because majority of people who buy drivers with any regularity want one thing the most and that is distance. they dont care about the fact that the real distance comes from a sound golf swing and no club no matter how good gonna buy them distance in any significant way to compensate for their swing. they just wanna hit an occasional good one past their buddies. so they wanna buy more distance and since they cant buy a sound golf swing manufacturers are happy to oblige and that what drives their designs for the most part. people see tour players bombing it and they wanna do the same and while most of them can afford the latest extra distance frying pan very few of them are loaded enough to play golf courses as manicured as on tour, instead they play real world golf courses with knee deep rough and such where hitting fairways is much more important. so the simple truth of this is that there is demand and there is supply. TSG here is great place to find niche market custom gear if you are not happy with whats generally available but its a niche market nevertheless. preaching to average consumer about shorter distance and hitting more fairways aint gonna sell whole loads of clubs. ..utter nonsense.. Im intrigued. Explain yourself ... if you can :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 No flaming here but I would like to hear your explanation as well, I think (I now) his comments are correct...BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I was just thinking, could you imagine a 390cc PRGR Egg Spoon driver with a 44' shaft, tell me that beast wouldn't perform...BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 love the opinions guy's my take is different on longer shafts and maybe Tario can chime in with some of the data found in the shaft bible and other Japanese independent publications. The longer shaft does create a little more distance. The shorter shaft increases the accuracy of hitting it dead center. When all is equal and you hit the longer shaft dead center and the shorter shaft dead center the swing speed, ball speed, and most importantly distance is increased a bit with longer shafts. So that's what the research shows... My take is hit whatever you hit best. For me 44.5 - 45.5" is good. Longer shafts have softer butt sections when designed as such which equals better feel as well. Also the type of shaft plays a big part in it. For example 50-80T shafts have significantly less shat deformation which brings the head back to it's starting point a lot faster. This supports the longer shaft. Crazy is a great example of a shaft that works well at 46" or 44.5" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I was just thinking, could you imagine a 390cc PRGR Egg Spoon driver with a 44' shaft, tell me that beast wouldn't perform...BB Oooooo... Egg Spoon driver... Now wouldn't that be something!!! I am following this discussion with great interest. Wondering if slower swinging "average" golfers like myself could reap the benefits of a smaller driver head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) TSG is absolutely correct - You cant deny the basic physics of a longer shaft. The same angular velocity at the origin of rotation increases at the club head proportional to radius (shaft length) creating more distance given the same contact. The problem is (and this is well documented - as TSG points out) that it becomes much harder to find the sweet spot of the driver as shaft length increases. This as we have noted is due to the attributes of the golf swing that change with added shaft length. For example swing level. I.e. Stand with your putter and the club head is a few inches infront of your toes - move to a 5 iron and its a foot or so, move to a ridiculously long driver and your swing is much shallower, as you take the limit of the shaft length as it runs out to infinity you will be swinging like a baseball player. This combined with other changes such as the rate at which hips must clear makes hitting a long shafted driver properly very difficult and to compensate we have invented ridiculous sized driver heads. Besides the changes off the tee for a lot of golfers it is important to have a driver which they can hit off the fairway for long P-5s. The smaller driver head allows for this. W.R.T to the above comment - about advantages for short hitters, I would say that the most important thing you can do to increase distance is to work on your swing (this is obvious). A smaller driver head wont necessarily get you more distance, but it will absolutely make you more aware of mis**ts - and potentially help improve your game off the tee. What I do to train for my driver is to practice driving a 1 iron or 2 Iron blade: This should emulate your driver swing - and you will be forced to work on rhythm and rotation. With these low irons you get immediate feedback that is easy to interpret. (this was a digression, but maybe something to try for the above poster) Edited February 13, 2011 by Above_Beyond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Yes the Egg Spoon driver would be INCREDIBLE! PRGR would be a perfect fit to introduce sub 400cc in this market. I personally think many many golfers would benefit and fall in love with a smaller driver and shorter shaft, they feel wonderful. I hope that maybe a few of these drvivers mentioned make it into the Proshop, I for one would love to see the Yonex...BB Edited February 14, 2011 by BigBen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 plane has nothing to do with helping or preventing you to square the club face. you can square it flat and you can square it upright given your lie angles are correct for your specific downswing plane. the easiest way to think about it is a hula hoop or the bottom half of it resting on the ground, entire thing aint gonna match the real swing anyway and upper half is whatever works for you eg Lee Trevino etc, doesnt matter for this. now imagine the club head traveling on it. it will always be square to to arc path but relative to the golf ball resting at low point, for simplicity sake, it will be open thru approach, square at the low point and then closed past the low point. now you can tilt that hula hoop up and down anyway you want, provided it would still be in position a human anatomy allows for in a golf swing, and the club head at correct lie angle relative to your tilt angle would do exactly the same thing ie it will be open, square, closed. if it doesnt make sense think about it another way. most, if not all depending how you look at it, golf greatest ball strikers were all flat. Hogan, Norman, Trevino. your "border line impossible" was solid and repeatable for them. from modern players AK you have mentioned already, pretty flat. he is not a tall guy and he plays a shorter shaft with his driver plus chokes down on it like he does on all his clubs but he doesnt play it upright. hits it flush pretty much every single time, no problem squaring that club face from what i can tell, great swing. regarding shaft length you might find what Tom Wishon has to say about that very interesting http://www.wishongolf.com/faq_tech_answer.php?techKey=25 certainly way more credible and interesting than my rumblings here. you decide how it relates to your swing and what you do and are comfortable with. ..utter nonsense.. Im intrigued. Explain yourself ... if you can :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above_Beyond Posted February 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Plane absolutely does, a natural rotation occurs when the swing is less shallow. your right - a professional can learn to cope with all sorts of swing variations, this is mostly due to the fact that they do absolutely nothing else other than swing a golf club. Look at Phil taking it way past 90 over the with a heel twist - ugly ass swing, horrible for the average player, works like gold for phil (unless he is coming down the stretch in the lead), For the weekend player, this isnt viable. Get your hands on one of Tiger's old clinic videos - he mentions the advantages of a shorter shaft in squaring the face, thats why he was one of the last pros to switch from steel to a longer graphite shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seesawgolfer Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 My eye hand coordination is quite spot on so I've had no problems with the longer shafts in the driver. There is a slight increase in distance that i like...any extra yard helps for my approach shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffer19 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 i agree about shorter shafts and more control and hitting more fairways and all that but what you write about flatter and squaring club face is utter nonsense. anyways the reason for all those evil things you talk about is consumer demand because majority of people who buy drivers with any regularity want one thing the most and that is distance. they dont care about the fact that the real distance comes from a sound golf swing and no club no matter how good gonna buy them distance in any significant way to compensate for their swing. they just wanna hit an occasional good one past their buddies. so they wanna buy more distance and since they cant buy a sound golf swing manufacturers are happy to oblige and that what drives their designs for the most part. people see tour players bombing it and they wanna do the same and while most of them can afford the latest extra distance frying pan very few of them are loaded enough to play golf courses as manicured as on tour, instead they play real world golf courses with knee deep rough and such where hitting fairways is much more important. so the simple truth of this is that there is demand and there is supply. TSG here is great place to find niche market custom gear if you are not happy with whats generally available but its a niche market nevertheless. preaching to average consumer about shorter distance and hitting more fairways aint gonna sell whole loads of clubs. I agree absolutely with ant that the average golfing consumers wouldn't care about swing plane or squaring the face. They are spending money to buy a game and distance. This is particularly true in Japan of which most JDM gears are targeting. Golf is a marketing business and JDM companies would design their lines or clubs to cater to the largest volume and not to those very small minority club 'ho. If you are young and strong, I suspect that you would sing a different tune but if you are in the 70's, you would try to buy a game or almost anything to gain back so lost distance. My brother just turned 80 and he is playing a 47" driver so he can at least keep up with the 60 years old. I guess he is good enough to adjust his swing plane to adopt to the extra length. Young and strong players would or should continue to use small head and short driver but thats not the majority of the JDM market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 i'm not here to argue about flat vs upright swings. that would really be a waste of time. neither i'm advocating for longer shafts. i'm just telling you flatter or upright doesnt make it any different. thats simple geometry and physics. good ball strikers make those works for them and bad ones fighting them. if you are talking about weekend golfer here how smaller heads fit into all this ? what are we talking about here ? Plane absolutely does, a natural rotation occurs when the swing is less shallow. your right - a professional can learn to cope with all sorts of swing variations, this is mostly due to the fact that they do absolutely nothing else other than swing a golf club. Look at Phil taking it way past 90 over the with a heel twist - ugly ass swing, horrible for the average player, works like gold for phil (unless he is coming down the stretch in the lead), For the weekend player, this isnt viable. Get your hands on one of Tiger's old clinic videos - he mentions the advantages of a shorter shaft in squaring the face, thats why he was one of the last pros to switch from steel to a longer graphite shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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