Making the switch...

[noxon]

Hi All, I'm new to the site and need some urgent advice and comments regarding new clubs. I have been playing golf for the past 20 years off and on and recently picked it up again (in a feverish way here in Taiwan). Being located in Taiwan, we have access to all Japanese and USA club offerings. I have been playing an old set of Ping Eye2's which were hand-me-downs from my uncle back in Canada. Recently, I've noticed that I can't get the distance I want from the clubs as they seem to provide too much loft. I have a couple of friends here that have been playing for much longer than I have and both of them are playing Japanese clubs (PRGR and OnOff). So recently, in order to try and stimulate and improve my distances, I went out and tried both the PRGR TR500 and the ONOFF Forged Plus (M711 - as they call it here in Taiwan, which is the new 2011 Forged Plus from what I saw on the site). The PRGR had their own PRGR steel shaft and the OnOff was fitted with NS950GH, both in S-flex.

With the OnOff, when I "really" connect with the clubs, the ball seems to explode off the face and the feel is (as the site says) really soft but a very "full" and "robust" feeling. When I connect with the PRGR, it's a solid feeling, not as soft but a "crisp" and nice feeling--almost like a blade but....not quite. It also seems that the OnOFF's are more forgiving.

As the Ping's that I've been playing are pure cavity-backs, I was thinking about upgrading to a blade. But after reading countless articles on the internet about the pro's and con's of blades vs. cavity backs, I've decided that I should stick to cavity back's for the love of the game....unless I can get to the greens every other day at least!!

My questions are these:

1) Has anyone tried both of these irons?

2) For someone who is a 12 handicap and has been playing US Ping's with standard Ping shafts which one would you recommend?

3) Am I looking at the wrong two sets? If so, what would you recommend?

Note that both of the clubs feel good the the most noticeable difference between hitting both is what I listed above as one being softer than the other. I get about the same distance hitting both and really need some urgent advice on this.

I believe that these questions have been asked countless times on the blog/forum, but I have no where else to turn for advice here as the local shops will only try to sell you what they carry (most of the time) and don't really "help" with the right club choices.

Any advice or comments would be truly appreciated!!

Thanks!!

[supo]

welcome to JDM heaven...,

there are so many choices ur head will spin.

the 2 u mentioned are great , good u found those straight off, if u like one of those particularly, then no probs at all porblem solve instantly.

the on offs are very very good sticks in fact they are up there at the top of the pile id say fellas?

not going to "beat" their feel. most will feel pretty similar. just amtch the right shaft, NS anything suits those heads really well.

if u like those then go them str8 away they are tops.

[Shambles]

Hi Noxon,

I'm feeling pretty good these days as I just scored a set of almost totally virgin original eye 2's of lawsuit fame in a garage sale, and can compare them to my old eye 2's that I have had and used since during and before lawsuit. I'm thinking of using these newly acquired as soon as I have them bent to suit my swing.

I'm currently bagging a set of Fourteen TC 1000's and rotating them with a set of Sword TM 305 irons and also a set of old Callaway X12's and X20tours. I dismantled my old eye 2's because they were hogging the bag too often and I needed to learn the newer clubs to satisfy my curiosity.

Frankly, after fitting the clubs for shaft, length, lie and grip, I find very little difference other than brand bragging rights at the clubhouse. There are loft differences and those can affect distance, but that is a matter of what the practice was at the time of manufacture. What is important is that you learn the set you choose and accept the limitations and advantages of that set as a necessary part of your on course strategy. They are all good if they come from a good manufacturer and some even from boutique manufacturers, once you get them properly fit to you. The important difference is you need to like what you see when you look at your bag.

Shambles

[noxon]

welcome to JDM heaven...,

there are so many choices ur head will spin.

the 2 u mentioned are great , good u found those straight off, if u like one of those particularly, then no probs at all porblem solve instantly.

the on offs are very very good sticks in fact they are up there at the top of the pile id say fellas?

not going to "beat" their feel. most will feel pretty similar. just amtch the right shaft, NS anything suits those heads really well.

if u like those then go them str8 away they are tops.

Thanks supo67, OnOff is what I'm leaning towards after hitting about 2000 balls in the last 3 days. My only other gripe is that during set up, the OnOff look thicker than the PRGR and I kind of like the thinnre topline. But I guess this is something you get used to? Because nothing can compare to the "feel" I suppose.

Thanx for the advice!

[noxon]

Hi Noxon,

I'm feeling pretty good these days as I just scored a set of almost totally virgin original eye 2's of lawsuit fame in a garage sale, and can compare them to my old eye 2's that I have had and used since during and before lawsuit. I'm thinking of using these newly acquired as soon as I have them bent to suit my swing.

I'm currently bagging a set of Fourteen TC 1000's and rotating them with a set of Sword TM 305 irons and also a set of old Callaway X12's and X20tours. I dismantled my old eye 2's because they were hogging the bag too often and I needed to learn the newer clubs to satisfy my curiosity.

Frankly, after fitting the clubs for shaft, length, lie and grip, I find very little difference other than brand bragging rights at the clubhouse. There are loft differences and those can affect distance, but that is a matter of what the practice was at the time of manufacture. What is important is that you learn the set you choose and accept the limitations and advantages of that set as a necessary part of your on course strategy. They are all good if they come from a good manufacturer and some even from boutique manufacturers, once you get them properly fit to you. The important difference is you need to like what you see when you look at your bag.

Shambles

Thanks Shambles. Your insight on your experience with Eye2's is interesting. Actually, my other train of thought was that since I'm so used to my Eye2's to keep these as my old "go to clubs" and get them re-shafted as I play some new Japanese clubs. I also thought of getting them reshafted previously, but the costs to reshaft them with some of the newer graphites (that perform the same as steel) is too expensive to do here, so I figured I'd get some new clubs by just paying a little bit more. But I will definitely keep these as my go-to-clubs as I learned all of my golf using these sticks!! Thanks again for your advice!

[ant]

i might be totally off here but my recollection from hitting those old pings was that they were rock hard.

[noxon]

i might be totally off here but my recollection from hitting those old pings was that they were rock hard.

I'm not sure about what your spec's are, but when I do hit the ball on the sweet spot, they feel very soft. Maybe it's a difference in shafts or other spec's?

[gocchin]

I've tested both the Onoff 2011 Forged as well as the TR500.

The Onoff (whose shaft is the MP711i here in Japan - 7 for 70g range and 11 for 2011 and i for iron) is very good feeling and rather forgiving especially comparted to the TR500 which is aimed at pro players and single digit handicappers.

The ONOFF forged has always been known for soft feel and more than every this year with the new model being forged at Endo (The TR500 is as well).

As a 12 handicap you are much better off with the ONOFF or a set of Yamaha V Forged (simply awesome).

You should be getting more distance from the ONOFF than the TR500 as the lofts are a touch stronger on the ONOFF and the design is geared more towards distance than the TR500.

[noxon]

I've tested both the Onoff 2011 Forged as well as the TR500.

The Onoff (whose shaft is the MP711i here in Japan - 7 for 70g range and 11 for 2011 and i for iron) is very good feeling and rather forgiving especially comparted to the TR500 which is aimed at pro players and single digit handicappers.

The ONOFF forged has always been known for soft feel and more than every this year with the new model being forged at Endo (The TR500 is as well).

As a 12 handicap you are much better off with the ONOFF or a set of Yamaha V Forged (simply awesome).

You should be getting more distance from the ONOFF than the TR500 as the lofts are a touch stronger on the ONOFF and the design is geared more towards distance than the TR500.

Thanks gocchin for your reply. Actually, with the roll, I do get better distance with the OnOff forged plus. I appreciate your comments!! Pretty soon, I will need to ask for advice about a new driver :-)

[ant]

sorry cant recall what shafts they had in them, it was awhile ago. heads had some sort of copper finish on them. hated their feel, was too harsh comparing to any forged club, jdm or not. even the modern cast clubs i have tried, none left the same kinda impression with me.

I'm not sure about what your spec's are, but when I do hit the ball on the sweet spot, they feel very soft. Maybe it's a difference in shafts or other spec's?

[Above_Beyond]

mmm.. if you are interested in a crisp feel, pretty topline, and forgivness:

the Miura Giken PP9003 -- http://www.tourspecgolf.com/Miura-Giken-2011-PP9003-Forged-Iron-5PW-Head-Only

or

Miura PP9003 -- http://www.miuragolf.com/passingpoint-PP9003.asp

these are actually the exact same club - the Miura Giken is the JDM version (Miura Giken, because Japanese law stipulates you cant sell a product using a familial title as a brand)

and Miura which is the International version.

The international version is MUCH sexier.

Great clubs though - fit them with an MP711i shaft and you will have amazing forgiveness, performance, comfort, and ease of use. And then simply adjust the feel with a good JDM grip set :)

all the - best

[noxon]

mmm.. if you are interested in a crisp feel, pretty topline, and forgivness:

the Miura Giken PP9003 -- http://www.tourspecgolf.com/Miura-Giken-2011-PP9003-Forged-Iron-5PW-Head-Only

or

Miura PP9003 -- http://www.miuragolf.com/passingpoint-PP9003.asp

these are actually the exact same club - the Miura Giken is the JDM version (Miura Giken, because Japanese law stipulates you cant sell a product using a familial title as a brand)

and Miura which is the International version.

The international version is MUCH sexier.

Great clubs though - fit them with an MP711i shaft and you will have amazing forgiveness, performance, comfort, and ease of use. And then simply adjust the feel with a good JDM grip set :)

all the - best

Above_Beyond, thanks for your suggestion. I will check around this weekend to see if these are available here locally in Taipei. From looking at the links, my mouth is watering already. Just hope that I'm ready for these types of clubs at my current golfing level.... ;-)

[Above_Beyond]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised, Miura-San has the "hands of god" and when he sets out to make a forgiving Iron he definitely achieves it. Miura isnt content with forging a highly forgiving cavity back he backs it up with a forgiving grind. I think you will be delighted by the balance between crisp impact and buttery forgiveness in this iron. From the sound of things this is the Iron for you.

Disclaimer!!: I am NOT a miura fanboy, Im happy to bag w.e. works. Endo forges some amazing Irons, and OnOff and PRGR make some ..interesting clubs. (IMHO PRGR makes the fairway woods on the market - period). But for a game improvement player who wants to try some premium JDM gear- Miura.... Q.E.D. ;)

[Shambles]

i might be totally off here but my recollection from hitting those old pings was that they were rock hard.

You're not " totally off ". Pings, like any other club, can be totally " rock hard " when you make a mistake large enough.

My current baggers not only felt totally hard and very unforgiving but also excessively heavy and unweildy even to the point that I considered snipping a bit of the hosel off to lighten the heads. The truth was I just put the clubs together wrong and complicated matters by swingng wrong too. Lets just say I was a mess in a morass of errors.

A fair amount of thinking, re learning and trial and error finally got all my sets with the exception of the newly acquired eye 2's working satisfactorily. Now it's a matter of sorting out the differences in the club designs and how they affect my game so that I can choose my next permanent bagger.

Shambles

[Above_Beyond]

You're not " totally off ". Pings, like any other club, can be totally " rock hard " when you make a mistake large enough.

My current baggers not only felt totally hard and very unforgiving but also excessively heavy and unweildy even to the point that I considered snipping a bit of the hosel off to lighten the heads. The truth was I just put the clubs together wrong and complicated matters by swingng wrong too. Lets just say I was a mess in a morass of errors.

A fair amount of thinking, re learning and trial and error finally got all my sets with the exception of the newly acquired eye 2's working satisfactorily. Now it's a matter of sorting out the differences in the club designs and how they affect my game so that I can choose my next permanent bagger.

Shambles

well said :)

equipment is 5% of the battle... tops..

if anyone disagrees - I guarantee you Tiger, Phil, or Choi would wipe the course with you using some old wooden clubs and tire irons

[ant]

right, like Lee Trevino used to say, its not the arrow its the indian. maybe their sweetspot is even smaller than on my mb5003 and i didnt find it, dunno, dont care to try them again to find out either. by totally off i meant i wasnt sure what i have tried was actually eye2 but now i think they were after checking pictures of them on the net. again, to me they had no feel to them, hard harsh things that also look like gardening tools. the only thing that really impressed me about them was how well they held up given their age, no dings or dents or anything major like you see on beaten up blades, copper finish fades here and there but like new otherwise. i think anybody who actually likes them can save alot of dough and game one set of them for life then pass to their grandchildren. dunno how many balls one has to hit with those to even flatten their grooves let alone depress the metal.

[Above_Beyond]

lol ant you should start a realitytv show and be Dr. Golf, and take all of us club hos to rehab, start by making us keep the same set of clubs for more than a weekend... i think the trauma of one set for life would be enough to end my life on the spot.... which I suppose would in effect complete the goal of one set for the rest of my short and regrettable existence...

[noxon]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised, Miura-San has the "hands of god" and when he sets out to make a forgiving Iron he definitely achieves it. Miura isnt content with forging a highly forgiving cavity back he backs it up with a forgiving grind. I think you will be delighted by the balance between crisp impact and buttery forgiveness in this iron. From the sound of things this is the Iron for you.

Disclaimer!!: I am NOT a miura fanboy, Im happy to bag w.e. works. Endo forges some amazing Irons, and OnOff and PRGR make some ..interesting clubs. (IMHO PRGR makes the fairway woods on the market - period). But for a game improvement player who wants to try some premium JDM gear- Miura.... Q.E.D. ;)

Thanks again for your insight. I will definitely give Miura a try this weekend if I can find them here locally!! ;-)

[Above_Beyond]

no problem, be sure to tell us how it goes :)

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Miura for game improvement? I think you got it the other way around. For players irons they make good stuff. For game improvement not a chance. They simply don't have the know how or technology to achieve forgiveness outside of grinding a 1 piece head for the higher handicap golfer.

It takes 2 pieces ideally and noxon should be looking at Titleist VG3, Yamaha V-Forged, RC Tour Forged, and others along those lines. PM or Email myself or Tario we would need to run down some stats to make a proper suggestion.

[Above_Beyond]

.... Im sorry.... Thats just false. I dont really have much else to say on that front.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

What's false? I'd like to hear your opinion. What model game improvement iron has Miura ever made?

The closest is the PP-9003 but the shape has gotsta go, fat on the bottom heel and too much offset.

Titleist VG3, ONOFF Forged 2011, Yamaha V-Forged, TourStage 705 Type M or S and Fourteen 710 or 510.

Those are all compact to mid sized cavity backs with little offset and a good amount of forgiveness.

[MatthewC]

i have to agree with tsger on this. Miura makes some irons for the better player. But I've never known them for forgiveness.

[Above_Beyond]

exhib a: http://www.miuragolf.com/passingpoint-PP9003.asp - have you swung it?

exhib b: http://www.miuragolf.com/shop_mc102.asp - classic iron for the 10-15 HcP - I.E. game improvement

[Shambles]

Miura for game improvement? I think you got it the other way around. For players irons they make good stuff. For game improvement not a chance. They simply don't have the know how or technology to achieve forgiveness outside of grinding a 1 piece head for the higher handicap golfer.

It takes 2 pieces ideally and noxon should be looking at Titleist VG3, Yamaha V-Forged, RC Tour Forged, and others along those lines. PM or Email myself or Tario we would need to run down some stats to make a proper suggestion.

Forgive is relative.

Personally, if a club is at least mid size and fit with the proper lie and shaft for the player involved, plenty of forgive exists. You can have small niggling problems with inadequate offset, wrong swing weight or poor club balance, or wrong total weight, but those things are already very personal. When a club fits a player, it's the finesse points that add or subtract from total utility.

If it's possible, I'd like you to clarify how a 2 peice can be all that different from a one peice. That's a theory that's new to me.

Shambles