jaygolf Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I'd love him here for that reason. We can educate him as he is clearly ignorant on the issue. It seems its as if he heard that not all JDM clubs were made in Japan and said OMG!!! I better tell everyone online! All the while this has been common knowledge for knowledgeable TSG members. What's even more telling is that he goes and posts it on a board where people know less about JDM vs posting it where he could actually learn more about JDM. We've been noticing an uptick of people who either don't like JDM, TSG or simply can't afford the product saying all sorts of wild things from Epon forges Miura, Mitsubishi makes Crazy, and now this...lol It shows we're growing as more bone heads slip in. Not to worry Tario & I will keep this place for the true JDM enthusiasts. Expressing concern, or even criticizing while amongst jdm enthusiasts is one thing. Going out of your way on a place like wrx to bash for the sake of bashing is another. I feel it's important to maintain some level of dissent, just not in 'public'. Nothing constructive about that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaygolf Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Interestingly, where there is passion sometimes it is just lust… Hence BST…. A whole lot of lust. And the fact that not more people in the EU (bar the UK) play jdm really pees me off. I envy you lot in the US (and australia, japan...)for this. Lord knows I try to get people to buy jdm. I probably bring up tsg 10 times a day when I'm at my club. Until recently, I'd let loads of people try my gear, they'd love it...and nothing. Then I get the petty comments, the jealous looks... I think my wife understands my love for jdm gear more than actual players do. Recently I heard for the 1000th time, jdm is the same thing as oems...so I give up. Edited November 15, 2012 by jaygolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 OEM = Official Equipment Manufacturer What you play are JDM OEMs. Really there are only two separate major golf markets. USDM ( United States Domestic Market ) also known as the Global Market & then there is JDM ( Japan Domestic Market ) Obviously JDM has the best of both worlds as they include all global models and on top of that special Japan only models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaygolf Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 OEM = Official Equipment Manufacturer What you play are JDM OEMs. Really there are only two separate major golf markets. USDM ( United States Domestic Market ) also known as the Global Market & then there is JDM ( Japan Domestic Market ) Obviously JDM has the best of both worlds as they include all global models and on top of that special Japan only models. I must have really written a whole lot of nonsense to come across as someone who doesn't know what jdm/OEM stand for! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian-500 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I must have really written a whole lot of nonsense to come across as someone who doesn't know what jdm/OEM stand for! :) Yep.........hahahaha only joking mate :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaygolf Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Yep.........hahahaha only joking mate :) Haha! Ramblings of a clueless nutter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaayelll Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 And in non-value-added news: I've always known OEM to stand for Original Equipment Manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIduffer Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 It shows we're growing as more bone heads slip in. Uh oh they're on to me... Time to switch forums... Maybe OzGolf or something will have me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardboiled Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Uh oh they're on to me... Time to switch forums... Maybe OzGolf or something will have me... Come to Ozgolf! The more boneheads the merrier:lol: Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIduffer Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Come to Ozgolf! The more boneheads the merrier:lol: I wasn't implying anything about OzGolf members as a collective, just that I could have a fresh start. But if the foo sh its HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreBeerBetterGolf Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Tonight I'm going to go through all my gear and anything that doesn't explicitly say "made in Japan" is going on the EBay. This aggression will not stand, man. Uhhhhh....no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supo Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 "while it may not be made in Japan, the same standards are applied as if they were done in Japan. I personally see nothing wrong in that. hmmmm not so sure about this. not sure if too many peolpe would believe it, i wont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreBeerBetterGolf Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 "while it may not be made in Japan, the same standards are applied as if they were done in Japan. I personally see nothing wrong in that. hmmmm not so sure about this. not sure if too many peolpe would believe it, i wont. It doesn't bother me AS LONG AS they aren't pretending its all made in Japan and they demonstrate explicitly that the same standards, materials, and workmanship are used. For instance if Epon tells us they are making some of their clubs in Thailand and everything is exactly the same as their plant in Japan then I don't care. If companies are having a lot of this done overseas and are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes like its all done in Japan then I have an issue with it and wouldn't be likely to buy that company's product. If companies such as Ryoma and Kamui works that market the small company hand made appeal were proven to make their stuff in China I'd be reluctant to buy their product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It doesn't bother me AS LONG AS they aren't pretending its all made in Japan and they demonstrate explicitly that the same standards, materials, and workmanship are used. For instance if Epon tells us they are making some of their clubs in Thailand and everything is exactly the same as their plant in Japan then I don't care. If companies are having a lot of this done overseas and are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes like its all done in Japan then I have an issue with it and wouldn't be likely to buy that company's product. If companies such as Ryoma and Kamui works that market the small company hand made appeal were proven to make their stuff in China I'd be reluctant to buy their product. People buy JDM for different reasons. Some are attracted by the bling bling. Some are attracted to the advanced R&D (Tourstage trickle down to Bridgestone, first multi-layer balls, shaft tech) Some are buying because when it says "Made in Japan" it generally stands for a certain quality. That "S" looking logo that is/was on most Speeder shafts is a Japan quality control seal. Japan has one of the tightest QC standards in the world. It is great nowadays that we have the internet (and TSG of course) where we can research on an actual product before buying it. Just imagine 10-15 years ago. I had to rely solely on reputation and trial-error. Case in point my current gamer irons are a US product, but all the literature and research peg then as "SC forged", which implies they have some sort of Japanese connection. I'm guessing Endo because the previous iterations also "SC" had "heads made in Thailand" aka Endo Thailand. Does it make a huge difference to me, not anymore. I have been down the JDM road many times (Honma, Srixon, Epon, Fourteen, Tourstage, JDM TMs and Callaways). The quality difference is still there in some products but it is not a noticeable as before. It is like what you have said.....Knowing what you are buying. The only problem is the 99% golf buying public are not doing research so "Made in Japan" vs "Made in China" still carries connotations and implications. I would probably take some China made products produced by Honma Beres over some JDM products made by boutique companies because of the $$$ that Honma can feed into R&D of the heads and shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supo Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It doesn't bother me AS LONG AS they aren't pretending its all made in Japan and they demonstrate explicitly that the same standards, materials, and workmanship are used. For instance if Epon tells us they are making some of their clubs in Thailand and everything is exactly the same as their plant in Japan then I don't care. If companies are having a lot of this done overseas and are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes like its all done in Japan then I have an issue with it and wouldn't be likely to buy that company's product. If companies such as Ryoma and Kamui works that market the small company hand made appeal were proven to make their stuff in China I'd be reluctant to buy their product. ah gotcha.. yes i dont care if its made in thialand by endo,, my foruteen tc1000 irons were some of the nicets softes clubs ive ever owned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIduffer Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Personally I am tired of having to do the research... I might not be able to find out all the nitty gritty details about where some items are made vs assembled. If it says made in Japan it should be just that. If it is made by Endo, with components sourced from various Endo locations then it should not say, made in Japan. It should say made by Endo. Same should be true of all mfg goods. Whether it be clothes, sporting equipment or vehicles... I know that is an oversimplified view as something's have thousands upon thousands of component parts, like a car or computer, but you get the drift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdGolf Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Personally I am tired of having to do the research... I might not be able to find out all the nitty gritty details about where some items are made vs assembled. If it says made in Japan it should be just that. If it is made by Endo, with components sourced from various Endo locations then it should not say, made in Japan. It should say made by Endo. Same should be true of all mfg goods. Whether it be clothes, sporting equipment or vehicles... I know that is an oversimplified view as something's have thousands upon thousands of component parts, like a car or computer, but you get the drift... +1 agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) The problem there is some countries have different laws on what constitutes "Made in". I think it is Korea (?) that requires that the "made in" is the country where the finished product was completed. Let us say I get a head from Japan, shaft from Japan, grip and ferrule from the Philippines. Put it all together here in the Philippines into the final usuable product it can say "made in the Philippines". AFAIK Most US companies have a breakdown sticker somewhere, I think that is required by law. a lot of countries don't have that breakdown requirement, just a "made in" requirement. Let's say a forged blank for a putterhead (I assume people have seen those) is forged in China into the intial form and weighs in at about 450grams. The shaping and grinding is then done in California to a final head that ends up weighing 340 grams. That is a lot of material removed to get to the finished product.....Where is the head made? The never answered question on the original 2 batches of TM300 heads. One had "made in Japan" on them, the other Taiwan (?). The story being the finished heads were all done in Japan but due to chroming costs in Japan TM moved the chroming over to Taiwan and the heads had to be stamped "Made in" over in Taiwan despite having only the chroming/finishing done there. I had both and could not tell the difference side by side and feel-performance wise. You could be missing out on quality product or could be getting product that is not up to what you would expect to be for "Made in Japan". IMHO If a person can get on TSG, buy and sell, read reviews, it is not that much more to research and ask around about certain products and how "Made in Japan" they really are. The 90% of the guys buying golf equipment because of an ad or because their favorite player uses it couldn't care less about "made in". Re: comparison to a car. I would think most golf clubs have 4-5 parts at most. That should be easy enough to check in to. We cannot expect to get the best without actually checking into it. Just look at the watch enthusiasts in this forum. Edited November 16, 2012 by xxio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIduffer Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 XXIO, We really aren't that far off. I understand that there are different parts and work done in different countries for different reasons. My point is the fact that there need to be laws about tagging a product as "made in" is unfortunate to begin with. If a manufacturer stands behind the product then made in markings should be superfluous. Epon/Endo is a great example, I don't think anyone here cares what facility Endo does the work in as there is an implied QC for Endo. TM on the other hand has different products made to different standards based on the market and price point they are selling to. Clothing is another example of labels and lines making a difference. Look at Ralph Lauren for example; purple label, black label, polo, polo made for each indicates a different a different level of quality in materials and workmanship. Watches are similar. In house movements vs ETA or Valjoux or Miyota also were they modified or just decorated by the watch brand. Brands and lines should carry the reputation not the country of manufacture. If a particular country has the best, then in my layman's view, and assuming the item has more than aesthetic purposes, any component that has an impact on the performance should come from that country. Otherwise mark it by brand, not by country of origin. Made in markings has more to do with customer perception, nationalism and taxation then anything else. Quality crafts people produce a quality product irrelevant of location.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegaman Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 He's been here. The guy has issues You don't want him here. At least I don't A supposed no-it-all that thinks he knows more than everyone else but doesn't. He implied TSG sells fakes. And T wants him here? For some "turn the other cheek" reasons or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supo Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. actually RI... using my former example of thailand forged VS niigata forged.. the fourteen tc1000s, while being ENDO forged.... vs thier other head ,say the TB1000 stil lsell at a premium, so theres def an example of that..he BUT against other ENDO niigata forged heads they are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, beceause i think..., (obv theres a more reasons) but bec they are NOT made in japan and that what the locals here think.... dont stone me for this.. but its dead true. otherwise the eqiuvalent say yamahas, or epons would be simialr price.. but they most certianly are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 As mentioned there are premiums attached to products when they are "made in". I for one am not shy to admit the reason I was initially attracted to JDM was the "made in Japan". Made in Sakata more specifically. Perception or reality, the fact is there is a premium. Yes, I was a JDM snob then I found out foundries like Epon which made the Japanese forgings that I liked also made US forgings. My wallet moved on to those. Would I have been able to gain that knowledge without snooping around? It takes google less time to search endo forging than it takes me to put on my golf shoes. Its up to us to take it from there. Yes "made in Japan" should stand for something. It still does. Sometimes though Japanese products are not made in Japan and it takes research to find that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 This has actually turned into a really good thread! He implied TSG sells fakes. And T wants him here? For some "turn the other cheek" reasons or? I didn't read that the guy is implying this. Is this true? If we sold a single fake we would be shut down in a heart beat and not to mention have zero direct relations with Japanese companies or U.S for that matter. Remember that website R11golf the one that looked like a TSG rip off well we got together with a whole bunch of U.S oems to shut them down. It was pretty neat. RI is correct that taxation plays a huge part in this so does output. Endo Niigata is small compared to Endo Thailand. I've been in 4 foundries and even if you go to the source information is never quite clear. Although we share a lot of info here on TSG there is some we can't mention... unless you come to the golf show in Tokyo and buy me a dozen beers then maybe one will leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potuna Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 The guy bitches about the price of JDM gear and yet post links to fake/copies Chinese gear. I'd rather pay a grand for real vs 500 for fakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supo Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 hahahhaaa chris .. come over and ill buy u some lovely asahi super dry and niigata o-sake... spill the beans..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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