Epon for sale - Endo leaving golf biz

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Jimmieboi,  I respect and appreciate your insights and opinion but (imo) your out of the loop sir.

Your right that Golfcraft has a much better idea than most but they are only 1 source and they know more than they are telling you and for good reason.

I take all the noise in Japan put it together and look for a pattern.  

The Endo math of minimum qty, mold cost vs Epon's volume do not create an environment for doing well. Especially in today's golf market.  

Kobayashi had real designs from scratch.  Everything you see today is still based on his work. It's pretty obvious so have a good look for yourself.

The whole sold out before release thing, here is just a few ways to spin it:  Can't sell very many, make it limited.  Factory behind schedule it's sold out.  Have a newer release coming, make the gap product limited.  Production defect or QC/QA delays, it's back ordered.  Or not including global production  into the # marketed as limited.  We are talking about mass production here,  if they can sell more than they could they would.  Let's be real,  just about every product is limited from all brands by definition.  Limited Edition is used similarly to the word prototype.

 

 

[jimmieboi]

The Personal 3 line up is indeed limited to 1000 worldwide. Other series are not, the 703,503,303,tour CB and AF tour. Will they make the first gen Personal again!? Never. Their new line ups the AF 105 is one of the best driver out there. 

I was skeptic about Epon at first. Never like their AF tour or the first gen Zero. Until I have demo the P2. Kobayashi designed was never my thing. His Zero is too unforgiving and short, the P1 was too short and unforgiving. It's a good thing for Epon to have him out. I'm not a die-hard Epon fan. I have many many JDM products but Epon is just unique. To say that Epon uses the "limited" or "prototype" propaganda is very wrong. Their limited line up is truly limited. Again the P3 is indeed sold out from Epon Japan. 

Epon will make more of their limited stuff if they can get 500 order or more, that's not gonna happen though. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by jimmieboi

[+TourSpecGolfer]

36 minutes ago, jimmieboi said:

The Personal 3 line up is indeed limited to 1000 worldwide. Other series are not, the 703,503,303,tour CB and AF tour. Will they make the first gen Personal again!? Never. Their new line ups the AF 105 is one of the best driver out there. 

I was skeptic about Epon at first. Never like their AF tour or the first gen Zero. Until I have demo the P2. Kobayashi designed was never my thing. His Zero is too unforgiving and short, the P1 was too short and unforgiving. It's a good thing for Epon to have him out. I'm not a die-hard Epon fan. I have many many JDM products but Epon is just unique. To say that Epon uses the "limited" or "prototype" propaganda is very wrong. Their limited line up is truly limited. Again the P3 is indeed sold out from Epon Japan. 

Epon will make more of their limited stuff if they can get 500 order or more, that's not gonna happen though. 

 

Take a look at the AF101 thru AF105.  see any similarities?

Take a look at Personal 1 now look at Personal 2.  How about now?

Take a look at the Personal 3 and Technity Type X.

Catch my drift?  

Again you don't get it  you don't just produce 1000 heads of a new design and break even.

You love and play Kobayashi designs you just don't know it.

In regards to "Limited" - You said it yourself if they can get 500 or more orders they will make more...  Does another production run make it not limited?  The Taylormade M1 sold out it's first run,  it that limited too?  
 

[jimmieboi]

Of course there's Kobayashi's DNA in Epon line up. It wouldn't be Epon if there isn't. He built Epon. AF 101 is a good driver but AF 105 is far superior. They may look aesthetically similar but perform way way better. The P1 and P2 have nothing in common at all. Personal 3 I can tell when I get to hit it. The new Epon design team is doing a fantastic job here. Nothing wrong tweaking the good old design and make it even better. TM does it too so did Titleist, Scotty putters, Also 1000 produced and breaks even, I don't see anything wrong there either. They did not go cheap by re-naming the old model. Others adopt that scheme as well. Epon is heading toward the better way so let's see how it will do. Time will tell.

Edited August 22, 2016 by jimmieboi

[+TourSpecGolfer]

25 minutes ago, jimmieboi said:

Of course there's Kobayashi's DNA in Epon line up. It wouldn't be Epon if there isn't. He built Epon. AF 101 is a good driver but AF 105 is far superior. They may look aesthetically similar but perform way way better. The P1 and P2 have nothing in common at all. Personal 3 I can tell when I get to hit it. The new Epon design team is doing a fantastic job here. Nothing wrong tweaking the good old design and make it even better. TM does it too so did Titleist, Scotty putters, Also 1000 produced and breaks even, I don't see anything wrong there either. They did not go cheap by re-naming the old model. Others adopt that scheme as well. Epon is heading toward the better way so let's see how it will do. Time will tell.

We are all in agreement there and of course time will tell and we both hope they do great.  I'm just disagree'ing with what you are saying. 

Such as  1. they are doing well as few are 2.  talking as if what you are playing has little to do with Kobayashi  3.  I don't even agree that there is this entirely new design team or new management team.  4. 1000 does not break even try closer to 4000+.   5. Boutique brands don't make at Endo.

Endo math is:  expensive molds, you must sell a high volume to make your money.  Doing well with that In this golf market is a tall order if your not big OEM that's lean with serious market share or a boutique brand with low expenses that sells well.

 

 

 

 

[jimmieboi]

I'm not saying Epon is the only company that do well. I don't know and don't really care. What I'm saying is they did have some ups and downs, like the departure of Niimi. Second, Kobayashi-design or not I don't know. All I know is their latest offerings is much much better than Kobayashi was head of Epon. AF 105 proves this well. Without Kobayashi as a lead designer, that in itself makes Epon has a new lead team. So Personal produced at 1000 (500 Japan domestic and 500 worldwide) really make this limited line up more valuable. They sell at a lost just to keep the quality supreme.

Edited August 22, 2016 by jimmieboi

[+TourSpecGolfer]

4 hours ago, jimmieboi said:

I'm not saying Epon is the only company that do well. I don't know and don't really care. What I'm saying is they did have some ups and downs, like the departure of Niimi. Second, Kobayashi-design or not I don't know. All I know is their latest offerings is much much better than Kobayashi was head of Epon. AF 105 proves this well. Without Kobayashi as a lead designer, that in itself makes Epon has a new lead team. So Personal produced at 1000 (500 Japan domestic and 500 worldwide) really make this limited line up more valuable. They sell at a lost just to keep the quality supreme.

With all due respect this is getting silly and your making stuff up.  "They sell at a loss to keep quality supreme"... So the head cost is higher than the wholesale price?  or are they throwing away thousands of heads?  I don't know where to start with that one.  Yet somehow they are doing well.  

They took Niimi's accounts and cut him out because they were in bad shape... Yet somehow they are doing well.

They continue adjusting past designs because they have a great design team and are doing well right?

We are still in the Kobayashi era of Epon until this new design team makes something completely original of their own.  

If you Produce high volume at a high price in a slow golf market and distribute only sell to club makers.  This situation is not optimal  for a brand.

Remember what the Personal marketing said "Only 500pcs made".  it did not say (500 Japan domestic and 500 worldwide).  A sign of a brand doing well with limited releases at Endo is similar to the Yamaha Tour,  first year 500pcs , next year 1000, year after that 2000 then 2500.  That shows a brand is doing well. 

I don't doubt the AF105 is better than the 101.  Thats a 6+  year gap.  

I wouldn't argue with you how to fly a plane because I love planes or talk to pilots so just read what my opinions are and take it with a grain of salt and if you don't agree that's totally cool.  

[jimmieboi]

I'm not making anything up. It's all speculations and opinion. From how and what Epon is doing right now, it seems they are doing just fine. So to say they are ditching golf biz and closing down their golf forged factory is highly doubtful. 

[+TourSpecGolfer]

23 minutes ago, jimmieboi said:

I'm not making anything up. It's all speculations and opinion. From how and what Epon is doing right now, it seems they are doing just fine. So to say they are ditching golf biz and closing down their golf forged factory is highly doubtful. 

When you said "they sell at a loss to keep quality supreme" it sounded like a statement.

Of course things look peachy from the outside. 

If you don't know what's going on then just take it all in and enjoy the read.

Endo leaving the golf biz is likely based on what I'm hearing from very reliable sources.

I care not just as you and we both hope they stay in as they make awesome stuff.

For everyone else reading this,  Hope you enjoy the banter.

 

[chiromikey]

I definitely enjoy everyone's opinion and them taking the time to share...

[Vegaman]

Banter is good!

Edited August 23, 2016 by Vegaman

[Ian-500]

As long as no one is having a go at anyone else on a personal level, then banter/opinions is/are great. It makes a forum 'tick'.

[Megameng]

Agreed. I appreciate Jimmieboi's perspective and opinion.

[jimmieboi]

It can never be personal. I have nothing to do with Epon. This may very well be that the sources regarding Endo leaving golf biz is false. What I have been told by those that still working with Epon, it's still strong. Their future lineups are very promising as well.

 

[daamartin]

I am an obsessive PRGR die hard and am concerned reading this - who will make their irons in the future if this is true? Are the RS 2016 series forged by Endo in Japan? Anyone know?

[jimmieboi]

Endo forged is in Thailand. The factory itself is very near to where I live. I believe most JDM brands are now forged in China to cut cost. You can tell how the club feels then and how it is now. Endo's feel can never be replicate. 

[Romaro-Slut]

Interesting read from Chris and Jim

Some thoughts

FRom a business point of view. Creating a mound and forging 1000 pieces and expecting to break even over this project. Doesn't make business sense. Will be losing business

They will have to cover this from the sale of other products segments 

[jimmieboi]

Not sure if stamping more than 1000 times would deteriorate forging quality. It happens to vinyl in which a premium limited vinyl is limited to only 500. More than that sound starts to distort. If so then kudos to Epon for making such a high quality product.

Edited August 23, 2016 by jimmieboi

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Its nothing to do with quality,  everything to do with money and costs.

If the brand pays X for a mold that is an investment to create the product. The brand makes it's money on selling to shops at wholesale and that profit has to pay it all back.

These molds are so expensive you have to sell a ton to break even.

Some brands complain with Endo you make your first dollar after the 5000th piece is sold.  So don't think this is 5000 of one series brands  must spread it out over multiple years making more subtle adjustments to the design. Then when the mold is paid off it's time to make their money.  

The strategies that Endo used  the past were sometimes against the brand often forcing them to produce an entire series with them in order to get decent pricing on their bread and butter product.  But then driver adjustability became the fad and Endo did not ride this wave which created a bigger draw to go to Chinese factories.  At this time China factories were weak and Endo was #1 but then with the rise of china and some extremely aggressive tactics in pricing and service they took most of the clients.  

Some brands may still use Endo for an exisiting mold that is already paid off,  usually a players iron that is forged and then the rest of the line up is made in China.  

Also if you really want to break this down harder not everything made at Endo is made 100% at Endo. 

But in the end China in the past 5 years has done such a good job with mass production.  Keep in mind really only 1 of the top 3 golf factories in China are doing well.  The other  2 are up and down AND these 3 have most of the customers.  The investment that China has made in their machines to produce new technologies for their clients is on another level now compared to Japan.

Customer service with the Chinese factories  in general even outside of golf is quick with less arrogance than in Japan imo,  then there is how they party with clients to keep them coming back for more ;)  Let's not get into that one.

 

[jimmieboi]

Money and cost most of the time affect quality. JDM brand in the past that uses Endo forged were so distinguished from others. 

Epon has a new adjustable driver in the works. Coming out Q4 this year. This will be the game changer for Epon.  

[RLL33]

13 minutes ago, TourSpecGolfer said:

 then there is how they party with clients to keep them coming back for more ;)  Let's not get into that one.

Oh, let's...  

;=]

[+TourSpecGolfer]

2 hours ago, jimmieboi said:

Money and cost most of the time affect quality. JDM brand in the past that uses Endo forged were so distinguished from others. 

Epon has a new adjustable driver in the works. Coming out Q4 this year. This will be the game changer for Epon.  

It's a stretch trying to associate "500 limited" to having a higher quality.  A mold lasts a very long time usually producing many thousands of pieces before breaking.  

"Limited" is a marketing word and we are talking about mass produced products.  If they could sell 2500 sets they would use a Limited 2500 tag line.  

Epon's higher prices come from their brand image.  9 years ago they retailed at 1150 shafted and shipped full price on TSG 3-PW

So many USDM brands were Endo made the exact same way as Epon is yet no body talks about their quality.  So your a bit spun in branding and prestige imo.  I don't see anyone  talking about how superbly made those older Cobra, Titleists, and Callaways were on the U.S side or those Maruman and Fourteen irons were on the JDM side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiromikey]

2 hours ago, TourSpecGolfer said:

It's a stretch trying to associate "500 limited" to having a higher quality.  A mold lasts a very long time usually producing many thousands of pieces before breaking.  

"Limited" is a marketing word and we are talking about mass produced products.  If they could sell 2500 sets they would use a Limited 2500 tag line.  

Epon's higher prices come from their brand image.  9 years ago they retailed at 1150 shafted and shipped full price on TSG 3-PW

So many USDM brands were Endo made the exact same way as Epon is yet no body talks about their quality.  So your a bit spun in branding and prestige imo.  I don't see anyone  talking about how superbly made those older Cobra, Titleists, and Callaways were on the U.S side or those Maruman and Fourteen irons were on the JDM side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I touted Cobra's S3s over everything USDM and in fact it was those irons that got me into JDM after trying to figure out why they felt better than anything else I tried in the current U.S. market at the time.

[Haovictor]

I love Tourstage 703 much more than any Epon irons. 

[jimmieboi]

Tourstage 703 is Endo forged. JDM in the days that were forged by Endo were superior than today's. JDM as a whole (non boutique ones) starting to become like USDM. Feel and finished is quite indistinguishable between two. 

I'm getting pushed away from JDM cuz they are starting to have their products forged in China, not Endo. Qualities wise just not the same anymore. Tourstage VS Bridgestone. Brands that still retain true JDM qualities just to name a few are Mizuno, Miura and Epon. 

Take the Onoff Kuro for instance, it's still considered one of the best JDM. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by jimmieboi