Taylormade Tour Equipment

[+TourSpecGolfer]

There have been many threads about TM tour stuff, but what I'm interested in is how these clubs are making it to the hands of so many people who are not pro's.

I refuse to buy TM tour clubs in Japan because many are retails adjusted to look like tour. While at the 2004 Tokyo golf Fair the top dogs at TM told me TM is not building Tour heads to be sold to the public and that if purchased in bulk they must be fraud and that Tour clubs are never shrink wrapped for players.

I beg to differ because on the TM site they have pics of Freddy couples driver and verplanks driver in the tour van with shrink wrap.

There is no clear answer how these tour clubs are entering the market but perhaps with a little investigation we can find out. I do know tour reps, caddies, and friends of Pro's leak these out but that still doesn't account for the huge number on the market even if they are #1 on Tour.

What scares me is the Tour issues that only have no serial #s and a square or open face. In Japan all the first releases have no serial #s and a face can easily be opened making it feel as if the ball flight is lower and more penetrating due to a decrease in loft.

I own a bag full of TM Tour stuff and was thinking about this long and hard when comparing a DF to a Japanese TP.

Any Opinions?

Scully?

[chainsaw]

Hasn't TM started to use tour serial numbers? I think they try to get so many players to use their products that there is a higher number of their products available and dumped from the tours. I guess getting to be the number one driver on tour has a price.

[AKFLY]

I heard about the Serial #'s also starting with a T now. But also heard that the dump of 510 TP's without serial numbers possibly came out of Japan. Funny thing is if the COR is hot the person thinks they just got the best $$ could buy.

Chris can you get me a TP/DF head in 10.5° cheaper than a TP retail here in the states ?

[FAQ]

I refuse to participate in the TM Tour circus. I have had my share of Tour clubs though. The TM tour gear is just retail clubs that have been altered to someones spec. The exception to this is the clubs that were not released retail in the U.S. at all. I don't want those clubs anyway.

What makes me think I can match someone else's spec or that the clubs alterations might be right for me personally. I use the TM 200 steels but they are not tour and they work great for me.

[tickyboy]

FAQ, no offence, but my take it a little different. I currently have both a '320 tour' tour and r510 DF (TP), and have hit/owned both the retail counterparts. IMO there is no comparison with feel between both drivers. The tour heads are MUCH more muted and explosive, while the retail heads (both great BTW, my 2 fav. from TM) are more metallic. I don't want to comment on the difference in ballflight/distance etc. cause I've only ever owned the same shaft in 2 drivers, and neither were in either of these. The two I own are also set up square/open, I had a 320 tour retail which was slightly closed, but have yet to find a r510TP that sets up the same way as mine, in any loft.

BTW, I'm not trying to push these clubs, to each his own. I'm just trying to show the differences that I have found, and there are differences for sure.

[tsg4tch]

If Taylor Made did not want their tour clubs to make it into the market, they would clamp down like Titleist does. I think it is a marketing tool and a very good one.

...in the tour van with shrink wrap...

The tour van does have a plastic wrap they'll put on clubs.

...a face can easily be opened...

Do you mean "opened" by bending the face open or "opened" by rotating the club in your hands?

[PxExG]

LOL - it can be opened both ways I guess, but I assume Chris means bending open with a machine (ie reboring it) not the flip of the wrist ;-)

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I heard about the Serial #'s also starting with a T now. But also heard that the dump of 510 TP's without serial numbers possibly came out of Japan. Funny thing is if the COR is hot the person thinks they just got the best $$ could buy.

Chris can you get me a TP/DF head in 10.5° cheaper than a TP retail here in the states ?

Actually no I cant get you one for cheaper than a TP retail..sorry

There are Asian fake clubs then there are Japanese fake clubs and the Japanese ones are identical. For example I sometimes get paired up with sailors from the kitty hawk battle group and was told that 200 sets of hong Kong pings, callaways, & Taylormades came back to japan on the ship. These clubs feel and look like fakes but to the average eye look authentic. T

he Japanese are so good at what they do it is almost impossible to tell. Most fakes are sold in bulk to shady used golf shops. Tour TM fakes are shipped to the U.S. and I have seen some CT Cameron's that are perfect to my eye especially the new copper looking ones. As the Tour market grows the fake market grows, I hate these people and I hope lightning strikes them. I think TM needs to do what Cameron does with its authenticity codes or a site to verify your tour serial #.

[AKFLY]

I heard about the Serial #'s also starting with a T now. But also heard that the dump of 510 TP's without serial numbers possibly came out of Japan. Funny thing is if the COR is hot the person thinks they just got the best $$ could buy.

Chris can you get me a TP/DF head in 10.5° cheaper than a TP retail here in the states ?

Actually no I cant get you one for cheaper than a TP retail..sorry

There are Asian fake clubs then there are Japanese fake clubs and the Japanese ones are identical. For example I sometimes get paired up with sailors from the kitty hawk battle group and was told that 200 sets of hong Kong pings, callaways, & Taylormades came back to japan on the ship. These clubs feel and look like fakes but to the average eye look authentic. T

he Japanese are so good at what they do it is almost impossible to tell. Most fakes are sold in bulk to shady used golf shops. Tour TM fakes are shipped to the U.S. and I have seen some CT Cameron's that are perfect to my eye especially the new copper looking ones. As the Tour market grows the fake market grows, I hate these people and I hope lightning strikes them. I think TM needs to do what Cameron does with its authenticity codes or a site to verify your tour serial #.

Note looking for a fake - just was wondering if the Japan model is less money. Since the R7 price is almost reasonable compared to the price of a retail TP.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

The Japanese retail R7 is more expensive than the U.S version. retail price is more and cost is more. I wish it was cheaper.

[FAQ]

FAQ, no offence, but my take it a little different. I currently have both a '320 tour' tour and r510 DF (TP), and have hit/owned both the retail counterparts. IMO there is no comparison with feel between both drivers. The tour heads are MUCH more muted and explosive, while the retail heads (both great BTW, my 2 fav. from TM) are more metallic. I don't want to comment on the difference in ballflight/distance etc. cause I've only ever owned the same shaft in 2 drivers, and neither were in either of these. The two I own are also set up square/open, I had a 320 tour retail which was slightly closed, but have yet to find a r510TP that sets up the same way as mine, in any loft.

BTW, I'm not trying to push these clubs, to each his own. I'm just trying to show the differences that I have found, and there are differences for sure.

We really are saying the same thing, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say they are more "explosive". In the van they change the set up, stuff foam in it to change the sound and work to make it like the player wants. You are saying that the way the club is set up works well for you.

[turbodog]

I think it is a marketing tool and a very good one.

you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

what kind of marketing tool is, 'we have secret versions clubs that we only make available to tour players to trick you into buying the retail version. we give these clubs to people on ebay who tell you that what we sell in the stores is crap! AND we don't hardly make a dime on the tour issue black market!!! we're just hoping you don't use the internet and will never figure out the difference. thanks for your order.'

i agree that tourspecgolfer's is an interesting question though - i'm not surprised about the onesy twosey deals coming from caddies and reps, but places that have large quantities of the stuff - i gotta wonder who's cutting those deals at taylormade.

[BostonHack]

I think it is a marketing tool and a very good one.

you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

what kind of marketing tool is, 'we have secret versions clubs that we only make available to tour players to trick you into buying the retail version. we give these clubs to people on ebay who tell you that what we sell in the stores is crap! AND we don't hardly make a dime on the tour issue black market!!! we're just hoping you don't use the internet and will never figure out the difference. thanks for your order.'

i agree that tourspecgolfer's is an interesting question though - i'm not surprised about the onesy twosey deals coming from caddies and reps, but places that have large quantities of the stuff - i gotta wonder who's cutting those deals at taylormade.

well, you know, sometimes we see lots and lots of Tour equipment being sold as if they were retail--not prices, but availability. You got to wonder what type of control TM exercises over this, if it ever does...

[turbodog]

well, you know, sometimes we see lots and lots of Tour equipment being sold as if they were retail--not prices, but availability. You got to wonder what type of control TM exercises over this, if it ever does...

i should clarify my earlier post -

i agree that someone at TM is cutting these inventory dump deals, otherwise all these places on ebay would get shut down. so something is going out the back door of TM and it is authorized.

however, i am just arguing that it's not a 'good marketing ploy' - it might be a good way to get a little cash out of dead inventory, but marketing? nope.

[jboy]

TM are letting it happen for a reason, I am with the school that as a corporation they are dialed into the ebay tour balck market thing.

Gary Adams that set uo TM knew to lose the link with the tour and premium quality was the key to success in the golf market. Founders, his second company went down the tubes, those of us that remember it had it tagged as crap, it didn't start out that way and it was controlling Japanese business interests that derailled the product line, lost prestige, acceptance and bombed

TM is owned by Adidas and they been at the same stuff with soccer equipment. They changed their designs to accomodate embroidery of the boots tongue so everybody could have the same as the Pro's do.... then they started modifying the sole and cleet patterns, Michael Ballack of Bayern Munich had custom Predator boots with half molded/half screw in studs... you can buy them on ebay. They sell replicas AND player only shirts... at a premium.

Ping in the early 80's played on extended lead times for their Eye 2's ... what sort of effect do you think that had on sales, people cancelling orders and buying Mizuno Dominos ?? No way, it just fuelled the fire, increased sales and folk just waited 3 months + for sticks.. it actually created the myth that everybody wanted Ping and drummed up even more demand.

TM sales hit the skids around the System 2 time and then we had the dark years with bubble shafts when they were getting murdered by Callaway.

Now they are back on top and I think they too indulge in a bit of Kool-Aiding, difference is Titleist keep the tour stuff for Tour guys and they are no longer number one in drivers but

in the putter dept Titleist are #1 and just look at the number of Scott Cameron protos and tour issues out there!

I think it was a marketing ploy and it works, Joe Bloggs now knows that the stuff in the pro bags isn't the same as what's on the shelf in the Pro shop TM are playing up on this fact and it aids off the rack club sales[/img]

[phillypete]

I think it is a marketing tool and a very good one.

you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

what kind of marketing tool is, 'we have secret versions clubs that we only make available to tour players to trick you into buying the retail version. we give these clubs to people on ebay who tell you that what we sell in the stores is crap! AND we don't hardly make a dime on the tour issue black market!!! we're just hoping you don't use the internet and will never figure out the difference. thanks for your order.'

i agree that tourspecgolfer's is an interesting question though - i'm not surprised about the onesy twosey deals coming from caddies and reps, but places that have large quantities of the stuff - i gotta wonder who's cutting those deals at taylormade.

It seems to have worked alright for SC.

[turbodog]

I think it is a marketing tool and a very good one.

you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

what kind of marketing tool is, 'we have secret versions clubs that we only make available to tour players to trick you into buying the retail version. we give these clubs to people on ebay who tell you that what we sell in the stores is crap! AND we don't hardly make a dime on the tour issue black market!!! we're just hoping you don't use the internet and will never figure out the difference. thanks for your order.'

i agree that tourspecgolfer's is an interesting question though - i'm not surprised about the onesy twosey deals coming from caddies and reps, but places that have large quantities of the stuff - i gotta wonder who's cutting those deals at taylormade.

It seems to have worked alright for SC.

different market segments - collectible vs. performance. the marketable value to titleist of those putters is scotty's image. the more overblown he becomes the better it is for them in the touchy-feely putter market, where performance benefits take a back seat to handstamping and 'snow.' i wouldn't put drivers in that same category. drivers aren't collectible - their value plummets when the next higher performance model comes out.

how does it benefit taylormade to hear that the tour preferred line of drivers, which they created supposedly to fill the niche need of the tour-issue fans, is deemed inferior to the tour df and tour tp? do they jump up and down and celebrate another marketing success?

edit: i have no beef with tour issue stuff, and i have owned and liked a lot of it myself. i just don't buy that letting it leak into the 'gray' market helps TMAG make their quarterly commits to the board of directors.

[JohnnyTN]

I like to participate in TM tour stuff either... why... because the depreciate too fast and too many new models coming out.. etc etc.. I have the same driver for 18 months (record)

[tsg4tch]

Chris means bending open with a machine (ie re-boring it)

I didn't know people did that. Please PM me the names of whoever re-bores/bends open Taylor Made driver heads. I've got some business for them.

...you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

Why??? Taylor Made sales have increased during the time this became common. It's working.

how does it benefit taylormade...

uhhh, sales.

I never even considered Taylor Made products since nearly all the local pros are Titleist staffers, but when I had a chance to try a tour club I bought a TM driver. I liked it. Now I buy other Taylor Made products. I have a group of 15 guys I regularly play golf with: we were all Titleist/Cobra/Callaway players. Every one of them tried my driver, three bought new drivers, one bought irons, and one filled his bag. A few of the others are on the verge. Now that kind of exposure can be measured in dollars for Taylor Made.

Everyone I play with wants to try my driver. Taylor Made knows that "X" percent of people who try their products buy them, so it's just a numbers game. And the numbers, i.e. $$$, are getting bigger for Taylor Made/Adidas.

All because Taylor Made turns a blind eye when some caddy sells a tour driver his pro no longer wants.

[palle]

First, let me tell you that I´ve had two TM tour drivers, and they are not longer with me. Ok my R300 is, but soon it will be gone I hope. I got one one of them from a tour player that was sponsered by taylor made. He just called the TM office and som edays later, the driver arrived. Interesting was that it said loft 9, but was actualy 7.5 compared to retail drivers.

I think that some of us are stupid when buying Tour equipment. At least 80% of us cannot handle them correctly, and honestly, do we train and play golf everyday? Do we drive a Formula1 car everyday cause we like fast cars? Every tour head out there have been customized to a tourplayer who maybe want to hit low fades. Imaging that club in an amatuer fader...It must be chaeper AND better to see a pro and customize after your spec.

Sadly some think it´s cool to play tourclubs. They are bragging of increasing 30 yards, never hook anymore... I don´t believe that for a sec! People have just found a way of making easy money. I can take myself as an example. I´m 4 hcp and hits most of the time the ball with a good swing. One day, after have been reading of how stupid we are playing retail, I purchased a tour driver. Man, I hit it so badly. Now I´m happily finding the fairways with a retail R7 and Cleveland 460 both in 10.5 and with Reg NV. And I´m recommended with my ss110 stiff and 9.5. But no I stick to my amateurstuff, and really why should I change?

Personally I know how to make a draw/fade, but I don´t think my club decides it.

My swing does.

[turbodog]

Chris means bending open with a machine (ie re-boring it)

I didn't know people did that. Please PM me the names of whoever re-bores/bends open Taylor Made driver heads. I've got some business for them.

...you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

Why??? Taylor Made sales have increased during the time this became common. It's working.

how does it benefit taylormade...

uhhh, sales.

I never even considered Taylor Made products since nearly all the local pros are Titleist staffers, but when I had a chance to try a tour club I bought a TM driver. I liked it. Now I buy other Taylor Made products. I have a group of 15 guys I regularly play golf with: we were all Titleist/Cobra/Callaway players. Every one of them tried my driver, three bought new drivers, one bought irons, and one filled his bag. A few of the others are on the verge. Now that kind of exposure can be measured in dollars for Taylor Made.

Everyone I play with wants to try my driver. Taylor Made knows that "X" percent of people who try their products buy them, so it's just a numbers game. And the numbers, i.e. $$$, are getting bigger for Taylor Made/Adidas.

All because Taylor Made turns a blind eye when some caddy sells a tour driver his pro no longer wants.

that's very nice for you and your friends, and i'm sure taylormade welcomes their RETAIL purchases (they did buy retail after trying your tour driver, right?). did you explain to them how your tour driver was so much better than the crap they buy in the stores? lol..

look, i don't care about this enough to continue arguing the meaning of 'marketing' 'revenue' and 'sales' - i'll just say that i'm sure they accept tour club leakage as part of the cost of dominating the tour driver counts - but the driver count is the marketing tool, not the leaked club.

no disrespect to your influence with your regular playing group, but tmag needs to post numbers in the 100s of millions. if i had to guess, i'd say driver counts and demo days and channel education and massive advertising contribute enough to the bottom line that the tour club side is just a nuisance and not central to any sort of strategy.

by the way, tmag posted a 1st quarter loss, fwiw:

"Carlsbad, Calif. (May 5, 2004) TaylorMade-adidas Golf Company (TMaG) today reported a currency-neutral sales decline of 4% for the first quarter 2004. In euro terms, revenues during the first three months of 2004 declined 13% to EUR 116 million from EUR 134 million in 2003.

Sales comparisons with the prior year were impacted by new products available in the first quarter of 2003. Product launches in 2004 are scheduled for later in the year, which led to an increase in first quarter clearance activities and lower overall revenues."

[joey3108]

Chris means bending open with a machine (ie re-boring it)

I didn't know people did that. Please PM me the names of whoever re-bores/bends open Taylor Made driver heads. I've got some business for them.

...you're kidding right? if it's a marketing tool they should summarily fire their entire marketing department.

Why??? Taylor Made sales have increased during the time this became common. It's working.

how does it benefit taylormade...

uhhh, sales.

I never even considered Taylor Made products since nearly all the local pros are Titleist staffers, but when I had a chance to try a tour club I bought a TM driver. I liked it. Now I buy other Taylor Made products. I have a group of 15 guys I regularly play golf with: we were all Titleist/Cobra/Callaway players. Every one of them tried my driver, three bought new drivers, one bought irons, and one filled his bag. A few of the others are on the verge. Now that kind of exposure can be measured in dollars for Taylor Made.

Everyone I play with wants to try my driver. Taylor Made knows that "X" percent of people who try their products buy them, so it's just a numbers game. And the numbers, i.e. $$$, are getting bigger for Taylor Made/Adidas.

All because Taylor Made turns a blind eye when some caddy sells a tour driver his pro no longer wants.

And I hope every one of your regular has a Fuji on theirs by now. :) :P :wink:

[tsg4tch]

And I hope every one of your regular has a Fuji on theirs by now. :) :P :wink:

I'm working on them for ya, Joe. :wink:

[turbodog]

how your tour driver was so much better than the crap they buy in the stores

Those are your words, not mine. I like much of TM's golf line. By the way, my tour driver cost me less than the retail R510TP. I could care less what golf club brand, type, tour, component, home made, whatever you play. Why are you so concerned with mine?

hey hey, c'mon now - you brought your clubs into this, i didn't. let me just say up front i'm not on your case, especially since our bags are probably more alike than they are different. ;-) like i said, i've had plenty of tour stuff, many of it taylormade and i like it - i offer a truce on the tour vs. retail benefits because that's not my point or what i thought tourspecgolfer was driving at.

likewise, i'll apologize if you thought i was putting words in your mouth - that said, i would actually AGREE with you if you were to have said the taylormade tour stuff is better than the retail crap in the stores (with the exception of their tp line). i've said it myself a number of times, lol...

my argument is that taylormade does themselves no favors to support people that continually reinforce the idea that the stuff on the racks is junk. i'm not talking about you - but many others that we all know online continually talk about how they won't touch a retail driver cuz it's crap... yet inexplicably credit themselves with driving tmag sales. that's all i'm saying. this type of word of mouth disparages the retail line which is where taylormade makes its real money.

but if that's the cost of being able to run the series of ads with hank kuehne, mike weir, and freddie couples with the number 1 driver on tour slogan - all of which DO contribute to retail sales significantly - i guess they are willing to risk that the retail bashing will go largely unnoticed by the public at large. in other words, 1st quarter aside, their success is based on tour dominance, not on leaked tour clubs.

[tsg4tch]

We're cool. :) I enjoy the back and forth.

I see your point. Most of the guys I play with, while they like the "idea" of a tour club, know they are better off with the retail models. They need the closed face and they like the softer shaft profiles. The reason they tried Taylor Made is they liked my club, but they hit their own sticks better/longer/straighter.

I think retail driver heads are pretty darn good, but the shafts they put in them are worthless, in my opinion. That's why we need Joe K. to "Fuji-ize" them. :wink: