The mis use of the words " Tour" & "Proto

[+TourSpecGolfer]

As the Tour & Prototype market gets bigger I think there should be a standard applied to the use of the words. Just go to ebay and you will see every club with no serial # being passed as Tour Issue. It is getting way out of hand and also with the word prototype, A true prototype is the first several made of that particular design as a first proof to the owner or R & D team. The outline and schematics are created at a higher price than the retail version because the machines must be configured to build the new design and the hand crafter must learn how its done.

Many in the know realize that TM is taking advantage with a market strategy to purposely release small amounts of Tour Issue clubs to capture this niche in the market. This is done on purpose, it is not the caddy's selling their kick backs etc , It is a very successful strategy on their part. There is also the problem of the huge amount of non authorized Grey Tour issues coming from the China factories of Scotty Cameron's, Titleist 970 Silvers, & all Tour Issue TM's. Its an after hours operation at the same factories that produce the actual product and IMO 80% of the Tour TM's are part of this.

There are a bunch of companies with poor business ethics out there that will produce 100 - 200 - 300 + prototypes for a Interested buyer, stamping proto is cheap but are they really prototypes....No. This comes back to the good ol ethics, honesty, & Integrity of golf. What should be done to companies that stamp proto on any product? They dilute the entire market and hurt true collectors and high end club enthusiasts.

Lets open this topic for a good discussion about what little we can do to help clean up a niche industry becoming very messy and corrupted. Any thoughts or questions are appreciated

[Breal]

You are totally right IMO. Also prototype means nothing anymore really, because like you said they make a few for R&D and thats good. But now people I think are putting prototype on clubs to make more $$$$$ .Its taking the fun out of trick hard to get stuff. And I don't know about other companies, but like you said with TM they do throw out some tour only stuff, so they can corner the market on tour quality stuff. And also besides the late night shady stuff going on after hours stamping tour #'s . That's in my opinion sucks because now you do not know if your getting real tour stuff unless your at the tour van or at TM in Carlsbad. Its is getting out of hand IMO. Just for the dollars :mad:

[xxio]

I have a 3 wood from China that looks exactly like the TM 580 FW but it is a smooth top and no weight cartridge. It is totally blank except for the 15*. I should put a 757 in it and call it a protoype :smile1:

[dadriver]

Good topic...is the J340 Tour or Proto--I've heard it called both. One thing's for sure, it ain't retail.

[aznmrq]

My thoughts are there's no solution for mis-use. Golf equipment market really took off within 4-5yrs. Before it used to be only serious players looking into tour/proto's. Now its everyone, why? Advertising by companies, paying tour players to use their equipments. Before, it use to be who has best equipment, and now its how many more ppl are using their stuff. Golfers today wants best equipments, same equipments that pro uses. I believe further down in the future, TOUR/Proto words would be same meaning as RETAIL. And new fads going to be "get fitted just like the pros" Tour Vans stationed in every golf course or golf shops' parking lot. Sure companies benefit from producing lots of proto/tour stuff b/c more and more buyers/golfers wants it. Its just a business, nothing personal..

[TMMike]

My thoughts are there's no solution for mis-use. Golf equipment market really  took off within 4-5yrs. Before it used to be only serious players looking into tour/proto's. Now its everyone, why? Advertising by companies, paying tour players to use their equipments. Before, it use to be who has best equipment,  and now its how many more ppl are using their stuff.  Golfers today wants best equipments, same equipments that pro uses.  I believe further down in the future, TOUR/Proto words would be same meaning as RETAIL. And new fads going to be "get fitted just like the pros" Tour Vans stationed in every golf course or golf shops' parking lot. Sure companies benefit from producing lots of proto/tour stuff b/c more and more buyers/golfers wants it. Its just a business, nothing personal..

EXACTLY, and *presto* you have TM creating the TP line of equipment in which this particular OEM in question CLAIMS that these TP models are the same clubs used by their tour players.

I was talking to Bill Glasson today after his first round at the B.C. Open (in which he shot +2). He was telling me that he switched from his Ping wedges to a brand new set of TM rac wedges for this weeks tournament. The TM trailer built them on Wednesday, and guess what was stamped on the back of each wedge: "Prototype" And these were not the chrome, black, or even FE heads, but a satin finish with custom grinds to his specs. I asked if these were specially forged, and he had no idea, only that he believed they were forged. His RAC MB 2-9 irons were also the same satin finish, with custom grinds, and I asked of these were forged in Japan, and again, he told me he had no idea, only that he knew they were forged. But these did not have "Prototype" stamped on the back of each iron. The Points to this story:

1.) TM continues to stamp "Prototype" on clubs coming from the tour van.

2.) Some players, like Glasson, could care less if a club is forged in Japan or not. They only care if it works on the course where they make a living.

[XoMartel]

sometime i feel that tour/proto clubs are overrated.

unless i see tour player use them and perform well, i normally don't fork out to get them.

moreover, i felt that tour/proto clubs have something better than retail to justify their price and the tag.

interesting topic!

[golfinguru]

I have noticed that some sellers on ebay use the term "tour issue" on TM items and "tour van" on other items. I wonder if the different language is subtle but intentional to mask the real orgin of these clubs. Also, one seller has several TM "tour issue" 2FW rescue mids ( head only) with no reserve. Typically these heads winning bid for $100 to $130. However another seller has only one 2FW rescue mid ( head only) listed for a minimum $169 and buy it now of $189. Such a difference in pricing strategy makes me suspicious of the multiple lister, although both sellers enjoy very high feedback ratings. Are any of these true TM authorized releases or not? Are the afterhour production heads identical to the authorized versions or are they inferior? They certainly look like TM products so I wonder why TM hasn't taken legal action against the foundries, importers and sellers of the "unauthorized" products? Which sources for legitimate tour equipment can we trust, or are we better off trusting TM's TP assertion that "it is the same as the pros play"?

[FAQ]

I have noticed that some sellers on ebay use the term "tour issue" on TM items and "tour van" on other items.  I wonder if the different language is subtle but intentional to mask the real orgin of these clubs.  

In this particular case, they take advantage of the shaft name and use that to muddle the clarity of whether the club is a tour club or not. I see that all the time with TM and they way that the sellers use the OEM shaft name.

[gatorgolfer]

I couldn't agree more....the R7's are a great example of this. Alot of the guys that played in the CPC recently were given R7 TP's for free recently and all had T serial numbers on them. I know this because 2 guys I know that went to play both had them and I got to hit them. But neither of these clubs should be considered to me "tour issue" clubs. However, I can guarantee some of the R7's out there for sale are these exact clubs.

[Guest]

They should tattoo Prototype on some people's foreheads... As some have said, the pros couldn't care less if you stamped "Holy Grail" on their clubs - they only care whether it works. Even if some of us can tell the difference by hitting a tour issue or proto or retail club, does it really change the way we score? Well, judging by the number of expert golfers swinging at 120mph+ there are on the forums these days, perhaps I'm being naive :wink:

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Good topic...is the J340 Tour or Proto--I've heard it called both. One thing's for sure, it ain't retail.

I would say the J340 is a prototype, but there is a prototype version J340 and the normal ones that dont say proto, then again it is a proto of the X-Drive, So I guess its a Proto :-D

[aznmrq]

I don't know about "Tour" or "Tour Van" equipments, but there's two kinds of "proto" or "prototype". First one of course being limited production with different specs. Now the second type of "proto" is one that is getting out of hand. These so-called "proto's" are companies that want to give out to certain customers(pros, some shops, pga teachers, etc) to get their feedback to decide to launch that product for retail. That's fine with me and somehow ppl get hands on them and sells them to public and it becomes a "hot item". I'm sure companies picked this up and now they're just stamping "proto" on anything, especially on shafts, putter head, wedges, and driver heads. "Proto" became now form of an advertisement and "us" the buyers are falling for it.

[gerimii]

This may be off topic:

Gauge has a mallet putter with 1st/500 stamped on the face, and I've seen this putter on sale numerous times by different sellers. Recently I spotted one on eBay and the seller said it was the 1st putter produced out of the 500 other ones. How can it be the first one produced when I've seen this putter for sale a numerous times? Unless it is the same putter being passed around. My question is, does 1st/500 mean the first batch of putters or the first single putter?

May be a stupid question but bear with me as I'm at work with brain a freeze

[lightrider]

Usually, 1 of X, means first runs. You see ebay auctions all the time of people saying that number 33/350 made Cameron bullseyes. :whistle: Supposedly anything meant for Tour use is a prototype. Its in their hands for testing and R & D. If its not a regular retail production run, then what is it? Also, the stamping of "Proto", "Tour", or "limited" is just marketing to denote a perceived scarcity of product. This practice is done in alot, if not all markets, besides golf.

[aznmrq]

Usually, 1 of X, means first runs.  You see ebay auctions all the time of people saying that number 33/350 made Cameron bullseyes.   :whistle:   Supposedly anything meant for Tour use is a prototype.  Its in their hands for testing and R & D.  If its not a regular retail production run, then what is it?  Also, the stamping of "Proto", "Tour", or "limited" is just marketing to denote  a perceived scarcity of product.  This practice is done in alot, if not all markets, besides golf.

Yeah, limited or special edition marking is done alot by other fields of market. But "prototype" usually means test-product on other market and ppl usually don't give into it unlike in golf.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

This may be off topic:

Gauge has a mallet putter with 1st/500 stamped on the face, and I've seen this putter on sale numerous times by different sellers. Recently I spotted one on eBay and the seller said it was the 1st putter produced out of the 500 other ones. How can it be the first one produced when I've seen this putter for sale a numerous times? Unless it is the same putter being passed around. My question is, does 1st/500 mean the first batch of putters or the first single putter?

May be a stupid question but bear with me as I'm at work with brain a freeze

Yeah, Sorry to jump on this topic again guys but Dave Designs is a lot of where my dissatisfaction with proto stampings comes from. J-Specs about 700+ were made, In fact all J-Specs have Prototype written on the face no #/### just prototype and there were many batches with this stamping made at different times, In fact I'm pretty sure they only sell the so called prototype. The mis use of that word has become an integrated part of his designs. I think for the most part a lot of honest brands do the correct thing, like in regards to scotty I really think they do make a first run of 500 and 300 proto's because selling 125,000 putters a year world wide that seems to be a realistic amount.

[MGB]

Just to take another perspective, there wouldn't be a market for the so-called proto or tour clubs if there weren't so many people out there anxious to get their hands on these things. It's a rare golfer that actually benefits from equipment of this sort (assuming it's the real thing) anyway. The manufacturers and many disreputable people are trying to cash in on these fools.