How much do you...know about Japanese Golf Club Manufacturing?

[tsg4tch]

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/how-m...cturing-part-1/

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/1018-...ratch-responds/

From Golf To Impress Blog

Over the last several years we have been asked a good amount of questions about 1018 Forged steel also known as "soft steel", and for the last several years I have been inquiring about its availability in raw head form and bar form for our projects with various Japanese brands.

Let's not beat around the bush, I will tell you straight that Japan doesn't offer ...

[BigEasy]

Does anyone know what material was used for the "Miura forged" Onoff CB247 and where is was forged?

Edited March 6, 2010 by BigEasy

[golf4fun]

I'm glad that this has come out, I've always wondered why Scratch was using 1018 and nobody else! I own 2 sets of

Scratch irons and they are terrific, but I feel mislead about the product I'm using. I'd rather them say there using 1025

and brag about there tour dept. services!!

I hope somebody tests there material and if it so, I hope Scratch's founder steps up to the plate and tell the truth.

[vertigo88]

You have stated that the Miura heads come as a raw head and Miura's factory grinds it down. Could you divulge where Miura sources their heads? And as per website (Canadian) they use S25C steel. Is this true or they using some other steel?

As well, Endo uses S20C for their irons. Does the change between S25C and S20C have a significant effect on quality and durability?

[golf4fun]

I was not surprised they locked it up, heck you can't even find the thread anymore!! I think Scratch has a unique product in the US and a good one, Ari needs to get to the bottom of it and send a head in for testing. I'm surprised by all the scratch fanboys over there, I have 2 sets of there tour dept. irons and countless Scratch wedges, probably have spent more $$$ with them then anyone. I ordered 2 wedges back in November 09, still don't have them and haven't ever been given a date from Ari when I might receive them and no apology for being slow. Also for a company that is so proud of there quality control, the length of all my wedges have always been off, at least they were too long so I could cut them down myself. Anyways I think there losing some of there customers like me that got them going because there to focused on having a few clubs being played on the PGA tour right now.

Edited March 7, 2010 by golf4fun

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Just to clear things up there are 3 Ishiharas. let me explain:

- Ishihara MOZ : The famous wedge grinder and hand polisher who founded the brand MOZ and died 2 years ago from stomach cancer.

- Ishihara-Shoten : This is a middle man company that works between manufactures and the actual factories ( they do not forge golf clubs ).

- Ishihara Store : This is the company that recieved the rights to Ishihara MOZ brand with a trademark transfer. they are only a golf shop.

Scratch Golf has been saying for years that their product is Ishihara forged. We are 100% positive that Ishihara-Shoten acts as a middle man and has never forged a golf club. they handle the orders and outsource the labor to various factories. This may explain why the TSG wedge was produced of S25C at kyoei.

We are surprised that Scratch Golf uses Ishihara-Shoten to act as the middle man in producing their products. It adds an extra expense & A LOT of time delay for orders. This is usually the case with non Japanese companies trying to have golf clubs produced in Japan.

The above is all FACT not rumors or opinion.

Does anyone know what material was used for the "Miura forged" Onoff CB247 and where is was forged?

Thank you for your question. The ONOFF CB247 is forged from S25C. Miura outsources their Forgings and Platings yet handles the grinding and quality control for their products. It's pretty interesting the head is forged separatly from the hosel piece and then Miura spins the hosel piece so fast that it gets hot and is able to stick to the head portion of the forging. This is a good way to create a tight tolerance. It also allows them to produce an iron using 2D which is more flat on the press and easier thus making it more affordable.

You have stated that the Miura heads come as a raw head and Miura's factory grinds it down. Could you divulge where Miura sources their heads? And as per website (Canadian) they use S25C steel. Is this true or they using some other steel?

As well, Endo uses S20C for their irons. Does the change between S25C and S20C have a significant effect on quality and durability?

I don't know the source for certain but my best sources all say an East Osaka foundry. It is high quality JIS grade S25C steel. In regards to your question about S20C vs S25C after heat treatment you really can't tell it boils down to the design of the golf club and the method of manufacturing.

I'm glad that this has come out, I've always wondered why Scratch was using 1018 and nobody else! I own 2 sets of

Scratch irons and they are terrific, but I feel mislead about the product I'm using. I'd rather them say there using 1025

and brag about there tour dept. services!!

I really dont think the issue is about whether or not they use 1018 but rather what exactly 1018 is and where it comes from. 1018 comes from mainland China and you can research this on your own via google. 1018 is of such a poor quality that Japan will not give it the JIS ( Japan Industry Standard ) rating.

JIS Rated Steel: S10C, S15C, S-20C, S25C, S35C, S45C, & S50C

The JIS standard is used in materials, appliances, electronics, automotive, architecture, and most other industries. It's a big deal in Japan and everything produced in Japan carries a JIS rating as a sign of Japan's high standards in quality.

Scratch Golf is having a tough time due to controversial marketing tactics:

1. The no pay for play controversy, they market they dont pay their players but people found out they only pay if they win.

2. The we produce original molds controversy - It's proven that their iron heads are Open Model catalog heads that have existed for almost 10 years at half the price.

3. The recent 1018 from mainland China controversy - we just broke this news a couple of days ago.

4. The Ishihara Forged controversy - Ishihara doesn't forge golf clubs & we just broke this news a couple of days ago.

5. The so called TSG 1018 Ishihara Forged wedge wedge controversy ( It was actually S25C produced by Kyoei )

We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man so they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.

[xxio]

We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man so they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.

Chris couple of questions.

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited March 7, 2010 by xxio

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Chris couple of questions.

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

Just my 2 cents.

I dont see it that way XXIO,

I said "some" benefit of the doubt. Being in business for 7+ years and visiting the foundry Ari couldn't of been completely in the dark. He knew about open model heads because we confronted him about it AND posted it. Further proof of that is he has denied it in two forums that called him on it. Do you not think those are open model heads?

In regards to GT & DW I know the name was taken from Darren Eggars. Both men have issues and both have moved on. No angels in that situation.

The purpose of the blog post was to clear up misconceptions that is common knowledge in the Japan Golf Industry. Furthermore, It's not simply about carbon contents it's also about material tolorences and where that material was originally produced. The tolerance is too drastic in 1018.

The Miura issue has been common knowledge in Japan. No single OEM of that size has a forging press unless they are producing 3000 sets per month of their own product....none.

[xxio]

Fair enough. You can handle things anyway you wish.

I would have hoped to have seen an effort to contact Scratch to make a few inquiries first before "exposing". I guess I fruitlessly thought the gentleman's game extended to the industry as well. Especially between two people who had a previous business relationship.

IMHO there is no benefit of the doubt, even "some" because otherwise the certainty with the information is posted would not be done so with such vigor.

I'm am no expert in open heads. I just know there are so many out there to count. There are so many similar iron, wedge, and putter heads that are bought in very rough shapes and then guys with great hands can do magic with them.

I hope the truth does come out.

[idrive]

The thread has been pulled from golfwrx.

It would have taken a SPONSOR's request to have it yanked. Not closed but yanked, GONE.

I'm sure any others (threads) will disappear even quicker.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

There was an good question/comment in the blog and I wanted it into this conversation:

James T. Asked:

This debate about 1018 steel has me somewhat confused.

So in Japan they do not have a steel that is the equivalent of 1018 Carbon steel, because the Japanese foundrys dont believe they can control the quality to high enough margins. But then 1018 steel is exactly the same as any other carbon steel, it is just the carbon content that changes.

I know of plenty of companies throughout Europe that can produce 1018, 1025, whatever carbon steel to tolerances that are extremely high quality, they control what goes into the steel and therefore dictate the quality.

So the reason im confused….so in China the 1018 carbon steel is deemed to be low quality and a mish mash of ingredients…..in Japan they dont have or use 1018 because they feel it is inferior.

Should your statement really be, Chinese quality controls for 1018 steel are so poor that the Japanese will not use them, and will not copy them…because like i say, the quality of any steel depends on what you put in it, and you cannot simply say ANY 1018 steel is poor quality, because that isnt the case.

Anywho, its not really along the lines of the debate, but i didnt think it fair to call out 1018 steel all over the world as poor quality, because that is factually incorrect, as your research is based in Asia

My Reply:

It isnt only the carbon content that is reason why it will not be JIS certified but also the tolorance of other minerals, strength, and PSI. In europe they of course don’t use JIS, I think they have EN & ASCI which not as scrutinized as JIS, I haven’t researched if it meets EU standards or if EN1018 exists but ASCI 1018 is considered to have a relatively low tensile strength, but it is cheap and malleable.

We are big supporters of Japanese quality and the company in question has been making claims that were untrue and causing confusion to those who are not as educated about the manufacturing process in Japan.

The carbon content itself can overlap in 1018 steel just as other JIS materals can overlap but the range of that overlap and the amount it can overlap in carbon AND other minerals is not acceptable. This isn’t only a carbon or mineral issue it also involves other factors.

JIS ( Japan Industry Standard ) is very important to us and our customers it certifies the level of quality the material of a golf club is made at in our industry. To put it another way IMO it’s like comparing USDA PRIME grade beef to USDA CHOICE graded beef in america. The beef must have a certain amount of fat and other requirements to be considered USDA highest grade, well in this case the metal must meet not only carbon but other mineral amounts and then tolorance and tensile strength requirements to hit the bare minimum of the JIS grading system.

The Japanese Industry Standard system is used across just about every industry in Japan. In fact there has been controversy when a Japan home builder built homes using non JIS materials and parts and was heavily criticized due to the homes durability during an earthquake. There have also been complaints when appliances have malfunctioned causing harm or fire and the non JIS parts were part of the focus or blame. If there was a building made of 1018 vs S25C and a fire broke out the home made of 1018 in theory would crumble first.

For the Japanese in the golf equipment industry and taiwanese they did not need to do any research to know that 1018 was not up to par. It was a matter of simply mentioning 1018 and each of our sources said along the lines of ” thats not from here ” It’s a mainland China material. But we researched it any.

The company in question is supposed to be of the highest quality in golf as advertised, Could you imagine a fine dine resturaunt serve CHOICE grade beef and passing it off as PRIME to it’s customers

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Fair enough. You can handle things anyway you wish.

I would have hoped to have seen an effort to contact Scratch to make a few inquiries first before "exposing". I guess I fruitlessly thought the gentleman's game extended to the industry as well. Especially between two people who had a previous business relationship.

IMHO there is no benefit of the doubt, even "some" because otherwise the certainty with the information is posted would not be done so with such vigor.

I'm am no expert in open heads. I just know there are so many out there to count. There are so many similar iron, wedge, and putter heads that are bought in very rough shapes and then guys with great hands can do magic with them.

I hope the truth does come out.

XXIO, There were more than a few inquiries made by me as well as many customers about their use of open model heads. IMO the gentleman's game does extend to the industry for the most part but what part of gentlemans game do you see in what IMO is directly misleading the consumer?

My benefit of the doubt extends to perhaps they dont know as much as they say they do about their process because Shoten acts as a middle man for manufacturing.

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on open model heads from Japan and Taiwan. If a product is open model being passed off as original mold or the company is charging original design type prices you will see me take issue with it. What sort of proof would you like to see?

In the above case this is an extremely popular open model head, although dated the companies that use it simply adjust the mold or grind instead of paying new mold fee's and producing thousands of sets. All 3 scratch models are Open Mold. It's OK they are decent clubs but the other brands are not publicly saying they use only "original molds" that only they produced. The least they could have done is do a CNC design in the sole raising the cost - value ratio but they went with a basic logo stamping.

Brands far bigger than scratch can't afford original design fee's. ( CAD, Mold, Min Qty ) please visit their HQ and then let me know if you think they have millions to blow producing 3 irons that are identical to open model offerings.

[Vineman23]

Chris,

As a new comer to your site and it's products one of the things that has always been said in forums is that you let your customers know if there is a problem with QC on a product and if it is consistently faulty you will remove it from your product line.

This is a big bonus for us the customer IMO so please keep the honesty coming. It will be interesting to see where this debate ends up, we are all paying big money to buy from "independant" and high end companies and I for one expect to be given correct information about the product I am buying and also expect to have no QC issues. If I wanted to continue with inferior products I would still be buying from the retailer on the corner stocking (and pushing) the big OEM's equipment.

Vineman

[xxio]

Fair enough again.

Just like I responded in the wrx thread that the guys who were insinuating against you should come out with proof otherwise they are just tarnishing reputations I also come here and ask that perhaps better efforts could be made to ask Mr. Techner.

If Scratch replied with a "none of your business" type of email when you asked them about what you had discovered then all the harsh words are well deserved.

I saw the tolerances for the carbon contents of 1018 and 1020 somewhere and with tolerances they do overlap. I did not think to look at the other mineral content though. I hope test results come back soon.

[EPONfreak]

Fair enough again.

Just like I responded in the wrx thread that the guys who were insinuating against you should come out with proof otherwise they are just tarnishing reputations I also come here and ask that perhaps better efforts could be made to ask Mr. Techner.

If Scratch replied with a "none of your business" type of email when you asked them about what you had discovered then all the harsh words are well deserved.

I saw the tolerances for the carbon contents of 1018 and 1020 somewhere and with tolerances they do overlap. I did not think to look at the other mineral content though. I hope test results come back soon.

The results of the metallurgy testing will be interesting.

Ari's response to the WRX thread (which as we know has been DELETED) states Chris' motivation is purely sales is ridiculous and reduces Ari's credibility in my eyes. An old trick is to 'play the man not the ball' to divert attention away from the real issue at hand.

We need only to view some recent threads to see Chris is entirely honest in his assessment of product. As evidence I cite his comment with regard to Sky Dream Jump QC and criticism of the 208KGX design. I would think a person purely about sales would remain silent on such issues.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Their clubs NOT being made of 1018 is simply my opinion because my logic and every expert I speak to tells me why would they select an inferior metal bringing it in from China when S25C JIS is available to them at a fair price. The only reason would be cost.

So far none of the grind factories and foundries i regularly speak with have ever heard of any golf company using 1018 for golf clubs in Japan. It's simply not a good material to use for golf clubs no matter what is done to the metal.

Scratch really has no idea where their clubs are being produced or who produces them on a day to day basis. Ishihara-Shoten outsources scratch orders to various factories and grinders. I know people first hand who are seasonal grinders who have actually ground Scratch wedges at different places on different days.

For example Ishihara-Shoten receives the order from scratch and will try to use the most economical grind house to produce their clubs. Often its Asahi Golf's team because they offer the lowest prices. BUT if Asahi is at max capacity the job will go to a different factory.

How it works in the Japanese grind industry is a group of often the same grinders go from factory to factory looking for work. For example if a grind studio has 30 grind employees usually 20 of them are seasonal. A grind man who works at facotry X will also go to Factory Y or Z or a bunch of other factories for work. It all depends on what factory has the Jobs available.

When Scratch say's Ishihara Forged or Forged by Ishihara-Shoten its 100% false. They don't forge golf clubs I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not BS'ing anyone with this. Their public records show they are not a foundry. They are classified as a Golf Shop and all my contacts back up the fact that they are middle men for manufacturing. Again common knowledge in the Japan golf industry but in the U.S nobody knows.

They are questioning my integrity and word calling me dishonest when they have twisted the facts that they don't pay tour players anything, that their product is forged by Ishihara-Shoten, that Mr. Ishihara of MOZ didn't pass away, that there is a special heat treatment that makes 1018 good for golf clubs, that the TSG wedge was 1018 Ishihara forged and that their Irons are Original Designs.

[TheHawkmc]

The thread has been pulled from golfwrx.

It would have taken a SPONSOR's request to have it yanked. Not closed but yanked, GONE.

I'm sure any others (threads) will disappear even quicker.

Thread was not yanked, but move to another forum and closed. History of discussion is still there.

[Keen]

Thread was not yanked, but move to another forum and closed. History of discussion is still there.

Which forum was it moved to, or do you have the link?

edit: Nevermind, found it.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Keen

[LSeca]

Their clubs NOT being made of 1018 is simply my opinion because my logic and every expert I speak to tells me why would they select an inferior metal bringing it in from China when S25C JIS is available to them at a fair price. The only reason would be cost.

Chris, your logic has been flawed in the past (as you even admitted in the wrx thread). Who is to say it isn't flawed now? You have mentioned 1018, and even 1012 and 1015 in gear you have offered for sale in the Pro Shop. Yes, it may have been a while ago but you certainly had no issues with it before and even used it as a selling point.

So far none of the grind factories and foundries i regularly speak with have ever heard of any golf company using 1018 for golf clubs in Japan. It's simply not a good material to use for golf clubs no matter what is done to the metal.

Have any of these grind factories/foundries heard of the Yururi? As you may know, they have even stamped 1018 on wedges in the past. I beleive you carry this brand, maybe you can investigate them as well.

I tend to agree with xxio, he has worded himself very well in this thread. Personally, I have no dog in this fight as I do not purchase Scratch gear and do not plan to. However, I do question your motives and the way you have handled this. Imo, it has hurt you as much or more than the company you are calling out.

One other minor thing, the "pay for play" angle you are using and calling them out on is weak at best. "Pay for winning" is certainly not the same thing, Ping has even used this business model before. Scratch is a growing company and getting bigger, they now have professional player representation and are not trying to hide it. Rightfully so as it is something to be proud of.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I tend to agree with xxio, he has worded himself very well in this thread. Personally, I have no dog in this fight as I do not purchase Scratch gear and do not plan to. However, I do question your motives and the way you have handled this. Imo, it has hurt you as much or more than the company you are calling out.

One other minor thing, the "pay for play" angle you are using and calling them out on is weak at best. "Pay for winning" is certainly not the same thing, Ping has even used this business model before. Scratch is a growing company and getting bigger, they now have professional player representation and are not trying to hide it. Rightfully so as it is something to be proud of.

LSeca,

First of all you say Yururi has 1018 on their wedge? It's 1.618 THE GOLDEN RATIO! You have mistaken the 6 for a 0! 1.618 LINK Yes most of these factories know the Yururi brand. In fact Asahi golf regularly copies their designs. Anything else to say about Yururi? The owner is one of my best friends.

In regards to pay for play. "We Dont Pay Players" then they use on their website "Scratch is the only company on Tour that does not pay up front for players to use their clubs."

Its 100% misleading. Check out the Hackers Paradise Forum where they go in depth on it. Ari participates himself and gets caught in some marketing spin. In fact on the same forum they independantly found multiple sources who confirm that Mr. Ishihara has passed away!

What do you think my motives are? Trying to bring traffic to my website? or ....? Please explain. Let me put it simply someone is BS'ing everyone in the Industry, Golf Digest is printing this so are other publications and websites.

If you don't have a side in this why don't you question them? On the WRX board and here you only question me when I have laid out 5 solid areas where scratch is misleading the public and Ari will not respond to these.

Ari is not going to post anywhere that is not going to help him hide the truth.

Do you have any comments on Ishihara Forged? Open Model Use? Mr. Ishihara of MOZ is still alive? Softest Metal in Golf?

There are many people who back this info up in Japan. Ya know how many can back up Ari's claims?... none that I can find.

[LSeca]

LSeca,

First of all you say Yururi has 1018 on their wedge? It's 1.618 THE GOLDEN RATIO! You have mistaken the 6 for a 0! 1.618 LINK Yes most of these factories know the Yururi brand. In fact Asahi golf regularly copies their designs. Anything else to say about Yururi? The owner is one of my best friends.

I stand corrected, I know it has been marketed as 1018 in other places. I apologize for the mistake, but you can tell one of your best friends his wood heads were some of the worst ever. Talk about horrible gear, those head blanks he used are/were some of the poorest quality ever imo.

Here is where I got the bad 1018 info, still does not excuse you of talking about this metal in the past and insinuating how soft it is. All of the sudden you are educated and now speak about how bad it is.

http://www.pureforged.co.uk/yururi-cnc-101...edge-1005-p.asp

Yes, I do think you did all of this for publicity Chris. I have lost respect for you and there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Many, many others feel the same I am sure.

I have said my peice and choose to stay out of your thread from now on.

Edited March 8, 2010 by LSeca

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I stand corrected, I know it has been marketed as 1018 in other places. I apologize for the mistake, but you can tell one of your best friends his wood heads were some of the worst ever. Talk about horrible gear, those head blanks he used are/were some of the poorest quality ever imo.

Here is where I got the bad 1018 info, still does not excuse you of talking about this metal in the past and insinuating how soft it is. All of the sudden you are educated and now speak about how bad it is.

http://www.pureforged.co.uk/yururi-cnc-101...edge-1005-p.asp

Yes, I do think you did all of this for publicity Chris. I have lost respect for you and there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Many, many others feel the same I am sure.

I have said my peice and choose to stay out of your thread from now on.

LSeca, your welcome here anytime. IMO you seem to want to focus on the person who is exposing the truth instead of company who has mislead the consumer.

I will be 100% honest I did think 1018 Ishihara forged was a selling point. I used to think it was top grade stuff but in life you learn new things and over time working together with Japanese brands the truth came out. Nothing to hide.

At first this was a simple blog post stating what i believe about 1018 and exposing that Ishihara doesnt forge golf clubs and trying to clear up misconceptions about certain things. Mostly opinion mixed with what I have learned over the last few years.

But then when I read that Ari was saying I was dishonest and that all I care about profit things got heated. He spoke directly against me and my ethics. He said things that were quite frankly factually incorrect and he knew they were.

That's why I began to lay it on even thicker and became more aggressive in exposing things they have said that are not true.

I wish he stuck to the facts because I am more than happy to clear up anything that I am wrong about and apologize in a big big way. Yet he has no answers. Ari if your around show us how I'm wrong and I will retract everything, apologize on multiple boards and post your banners for a year.

My motives are not sales guy's. the less scratch sells doesnt equal more sales for us in my opinion. For the most part our customers dont come from mainstreme forum boards. The majority of our customers don't post in any forums. I didnt think this blog post stating my honest opinion would bring in this much traffic and publicity.

I will be 100% honest. I can admit I was upset that we sold our TSG wedge to customers based on the fact they are 1018 Ishihara Forged but other than that really no real motives until Ari decided to paint me as dishonest and greedy. His reason for us not working together is untrue also.

In regards to Yururi, I agree those woods were horrible and yes they were open model. Their wedges and irons have been very solid though and I will add their latest hyrbid is 100% original design and they have removed the previous woods from the line up.

[LSeca]

LSeca, your welcome here anytime. IMO you seem to want to focus on the person who is exposing the truth instead of company who has mislead the consumer.

I said I would stay out of this thread, but I have to respond. We just do not see eye to eye here, but that is fine. I thank you for the kind words with the welcome, this is a great community with a nice level of maturity and knowledge. I do like to purchase items from the Pro Shop and have always recieved good service here....in fact I am hoping Goodsie has a speedy recovery as I need a new driver built.

[RichardLong]

Well I can't resist. I am a career lurker but a few thoughts...

"Do you have any comments on Ishihara Forged? Open Model Use? Mr. Ishihara of MOZ is still alive? Softest Metal in Golf? "

Out of the above, the Open Model Question and specific material of the product causes the greatest concern. These questions seem legitimate and it's strange that they are avoided by Ari at every turn.

I would also say that there are several people out there, including myself, who have spent large sums of money on these wedges. If these were bought assuming the material was different or less rare than advertised, it's shameful. I think this is why you are running into so much bashing, it's easier to attack you then to believe you have been deceived by Ari after dropping 200-300 for a wedge forged by a Japanese master.

I will also go on record to predict your results will verify your claim, then 1-3 days later Ari will publish something vague claiming that they are in fact 1018. I don't see closure for this coming soon.

I appreciate you bringing these questions up. I don't want to believe it, but with each action by Scratch it's becoming more apparent some level of deception was present, now it's just a question of how far it goes.

[golf4fun]

Chris, I've been reading the posts on the others site and they all want to attack you. They seem to forget you blogged this on your own site

informing your customers and forum readers, you didn't post it on Golfwrx. or even respond to it until Ari attacked you on that forum. I think

you have proven your points except for the 1018 debate, and with the club being submitted for testing should clear that up also.

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need

a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed

to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due

to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a

$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my

questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being

Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.