PIC of lehman grind and retail comparison!

[joey3108]

These pictures are both a 5 iron!

The blue tape is the exact line of the lehman grind, and i'll put it on the retail to see the exact differences.

I moved the blue tape to a retail head on the exact spot.

As you can see the toe is the only differences on the face shape.

Next pictures are the rest of the angle:

As you can see the top line of the lehman grind is slightly thicker, 0.2105 vs 0.1975 on the retail.

From this picture you can see that if the concern is the toe shape, The retail heads will be easily grind to a shape of lehman grind shape. From my experiences custom grinding irons, My best estimate the head will lose weight is only 2 swingweight the most ( 4 grams ).

On these pictures the lehman grind is a satin finish, I did compare it also w/ the chrome finish...their grind are pretty consistent. So they must have a master template.

Hope this pictures will educate some of you who have the interest on this club!

Good Luck!

Joe Kwok

[InTheHole]

The lehman grind is more commonly referred to as square toes as well.

[blabla]

I really cant seen the difference. I didn't even see that the topline was different, until you said so. I would not pay $1500 more vs. the 300's for a set of lehman's

[bruinduke]

Great pics Joe. Thanks.

The visual differences seem slight. I am about to find about the playability difference as I have a 300 retail set coming to compare against the Lehman grind.

Since the retail set will be a Miura forged set I am hoping that this will be an almost apple to apple comparison. The Lehman Box toes are a solid head and they go through grass unlike any club I've played to date.

[HipCheck]

This is the coolest post I've seen in a golf forum. Now I know that two swingweight points are worth $1400! :lol:

Thanks Joe!

[Mike]

This is the coolest post I've seen in a golf forum. Now I know that two swingweight points are worth $1400! :lol:

Thanks Joe!

Nice one HipCheck . I'm glad you picked up on that as I missed it completely :wink:

[yogi]

I am curious if the X300 FCI TM forged irons are similar or completely different than the two being compared here. Thanks G

[BostonHack]

Joe,

Thanks for taking the time doing this!!!

[phillypete]

thats an awsome comparision... I love the scientific approach!!

[haribo]

FINALLY. Somebody put a lid on all the Tour Grind bla bla.

Thanks Joe. You did a lot of people a huge favour and put some greedy slime buckets in their place.

If somebody is willing to pay the price for true tour grind clubs ... so be it. To each is own.

But for some people to hype up their overpriced, used tour stuff with words like "the real deal will lower your handicap" or "huge difference from retail or whatever clubs" as we all had to listen to in the past, is borderline fraud in my opinion. Yes, the Lehman Box Toe Grinds are tour grinds but in my opinion they certainly don't justify the kind of money some greedy individuals are demanding.

Thanks Joe. haribo

[joey3108]

I've hit them side by side here in my net, IMO no different in feel.

Anyway, My point here is so people wouldn't get burn buying the "MADE" one.

Plus, A lot of them call me and asked me what is the real different . So i hope w/ this pictures will clear up some issue.

W/ a crook brain I can buy a slightly used retail for $300 and grind, refinish for another $300 + total of $600 ( I don't even have to lay my hands on them, maybe only the grind part ) and sell them for $1500 in a new condition. Sell 10 - 20 sets of this, I can buy a good condition 2002 Honda Civic all the way to 1998-1999 a 5 series Beemer. :lol:

Joe

[Mike]

I've hit them side by side here in my net, IMO no different in feel.

Anyway, My point here is so people wouldn't get burn buying the "MADE" one.

Plus, A lot of them call me and asked me what is the real different . So i hope w/ this pictures will clear up some issue.

W/ a crook brain I can buy a slightly used retail for $300 and grind, refinish for another $300 + total of $600 ( I don't even have to lay my hands on them, maybe only the grind part ) and sell them for $1500 in a new condition. Sell 10 - 20 sets of this, I can buy a good condition 2002 Honda Civic all the way to 1998-1999 a 5 series Beemer. :lol:

Joe

Yeah you could Joe , but what would you want with a 5 series Beemer??

I could think of a lot nicer cars that I would get :D

[joey3108]

I've hit them side by side here in my net, IMO no different in feel.

Anyway, My point here is so people wouldn't get burn buying the "MADE" one.

Plus, A lot of them call me and asked me what is the real different . So i hope w/ this pictures will clear up some issue.

W/ a crook brain I can buy a slightly used retail for $300 and grind, refinish for another $300 + total of $600 ( I don't even have to lay my hands on them, maybe only the grind part ) and sell them for $1500 in a new condition. Sell 10 - 20 sets of this, I can buy a good condition 2002 Honda Civic all the way to 1998-1999 a 5 series Beemer. :lol:

Joe

Yeah you could Joe , but what would you want with a 5 series Beemer??

I could think of a lot nicer cars that I would get :D

You are right! :idea: I'll probably get a new young cute girlfriend. It'll last a year at least. 8O :wink:

[kr0nik]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

[joey3108]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

Yea! I'll grind your big toe first. So you won't walk that fast any more to go to GM. :)

JOe

[63soul]

"You are right! :idea: I'll probably get a new young cute girlfriend. It'll last a year at least. 8O :wink:"

Good idea Joe.....there are plenty of single 40 somethings floating around out there..... :P[/i]

[kr0nik]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

Yea! I'll grind your big toe first. So you won't walk that fast any more to go to GM. :)

JOe

I'm going to GM today actually. Probably at lunch. Gonna hit those 704's into the net.

[Mike]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

Yea! I'll grind your big toe first. So you won't walk that fast any more to go to GM. :)

JOe

I'm going to GM today actually. Probably at lunch. Gonna hit those 704's into the net.

Now why on earth would you want to go and hit the 704's for . Are you already planning on dumping the 11's ??

If so I will have to remember not to look in the b/s/t when they are listed :lol: :wink:

[Tiger3]

Thanks for the sweet PICs and comparisons Joe. That is an awesome post.

What is up with all of the bitter folks posting anti Lehman posts for??? :cry: You guys sound jealous and bitter. I think these things are the BOMB. A tour head designed for a niche player that is Muira forged. Looks like the famous Firesole forged with some mild changes. What else do you look for??? This thing looks awesome. Instead of getting at least 1 good review the poor head gets abused by all of you. "Wouldn't pay this, or doesn't deserve the hype that, or the best of them all "finally, someone put a lid on all that tour grind BLA BLA". That sounds like you guys aren't talking in a "tour forum" but came from the retail forum to blow some shots over the bow. Why all the baggage? Am I missing something?

As for the cost differential, I am under the opinion that the true cost or value for the Lehman box toes is 1,000.00 for a 9/10 set. That was the going rate prior to this surge of insanity that happened 2-3 months ago and that will be the price when the new TM RAC protos start to come out or the insanity fades away. The 1000.00 is a great price for a set of Muira tour TM300 irons 9/10. That is what I would expect to pay for a set of tour +2mm or ns grinds, so why not a set of Lehman square toes? s**t, a brand new set of retail RAC cb's 2-pw is over 1,000.00 let alone a tour set of 300's.

I was thinking about a set of Tour 300's only because I love the thought of them being Muira forged, and the head design seems to be perfect for me. I have the Firesole Forged, the RAC cb's. The Firsole forged toplines are to thick and squared off for my eye, and the RAC cb's are like blades in disguise. The cavity isn't big enough for me. The 300's seem like the perfect design. In addition I think that the square toe head sets up better visually and makes me feel as if I can align the shot better. At least that what the older Mac blades that have Square toes do for me.

These thing look SSWWEEEEET. Where the love???

[haribo]

"finally, someone put a lid on all that tour grind BLA BLA".

Well, I said that. When you look closely at the WIMB you will see that I do play Miura tour forgings, Firesole Forged.

My problem are not the tour forgings themselves. It's the guys who hype them up artificially just to push the price into oblivion. People who try to tell everybody that the Lehman grinds are a different breed all together. But certainly not some 300's that got a little different toe grind. (Which is what Joe proofed.) Because that certainly doesn't justify such a huge upcharge.

Btw, in case you're wondering I paid less than half what people asking for Lehman grinds. Bottomline is, you can pay for good clubs or you can pay for hyped up one's.

haribo

[kr0nik]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

Yea! I'll grind your big toe first. So you won't walk that fast any more to go to GM. :)

JOe

I'm going to GM today actually. Probably at lunch. Gonna hit those 704's into the net.

Now why on earth would you want to go and hit the 704's for . Are you already planning on dumping the 11's ??

If so I will have to remember not to look in the b/s/t when they are listed :lol: :wink:

Don't worry they won't be in the B/S/T anytime soon. Just looking for CB replacements for my MR23's is all. Maybe I'll just get a used set of 300 forged.

[Mike]

Hey Joe could you grind my toes to make them like Lehman's? ;eggface

Nevermind.

P.S. Titleist 704.CB's are in my brain.

Yea! I'll grind your big toe first. So you won't walk that fast any more to go to GM. :)

JOe

I'm going to GM today actually. Probably at lunch. Gonna hit those 704's into the net.

Now why on earth would you want to go and hit the 704's for . Are you already planning on dumping the 11's ??

If so I will have to remember not to look in the b/s/t when they are listed :lol: :wink:

Don't worry they won't be in the B/S/T anytime soon. Just looking for CB replacements for my MR23's is all. Maybe I'll just get a used set of 300 forged.

And what have Joe grind them and then refinish :lol: :lol:

[Tiger3]

[quote="haribo People who try to tell everybody that the Lehman grinds are a different breed all together. But certainly not some 300's that got a little different toe grind. (Which is what Joe proofed.)

haribo

What did Joe proof? He showed that the...

-Toe has been modified

-the topline is thicker

-grind is different to prevent digging

I have also looked at my friends and the face thickness is thicker than the retail 300's. Some say that the amount of steel that is removed from the toe is more like 10 to 15 grams. You could never start with a retail set and grind off the toe and leading edge. You would have trash and have to throw a glob of tape on the nose. TM made up the weight by thickening up the face and toplines. TOTALLY different head. You are letting you feelings get in the way of the facts for some reason dude.

[kr0nik]

It's really all about supply and demand. In the case of Tour clubs it is magnified because it is such a small consumer community. Despite what appearances are on this and other boards I don't believe there are that many tour equipment "ho's" (meaning those who buy tour equipment like it's going out of style). So it's tough to make a business successful when you are catering to such a small community. What happens is you pattern your businesss like a high-end boutique that caters to an exclusive clientele. So as a seller you need to manage your buyers' perception. You have to manipulate the percieved value of your goods/services. You need to offer something unique and "rare". You need to make these items "limited" and "hard to get". All in order to justify your prices.

I think consumers get a little annoyed when profit margins get rediclulously high. What should the average markup be for a tour club anyway? If I know a guy on tour and he sells me some tour drivers for say $200 a pop, can I then, in good conscience, turn around and charge my clients $1,200 for them? I guess that would depend on the quality of my conscience....as well as the level of the buyers' desire and the depth of their pocketbooks. Then there is the "snake oil" aspect. Such as "this club is soooo solid and soooo long. I gained xxxx yards over my last overpriced dirver...blah blah blah.....it's soooo worth the high price." So why does this same person turn around and sell such an incredible club the very next week at a loss? (answer at the bottom of this post)

Some would argue that you should be able to charge what the market will bear. The trouble is there isn't much competition in the markeplace to drive prices down right now. However, sometimes the market will suddenly get flooded with a certain product such as what happened with the R500's and 200Tours not so long ago that will send these "boutique" sellers into a bit of a tizzy. Suddenly prices are dropped, retroactively even!

Since the "tour issue" market is not an established one, and since there are no mass retailers of these products, prices will just continue to fluctuate the way they do now, staying overinflated for the most part and occassionally dipping when someone suddenly has a firesale on TM tour clubs on ebay. This doesn't happen often enough in my opinion.

I remember a time when "tour van" or "tour issue" didn't really add much to the value of a club. On ebay prices for these items would seldom top retail prices. Often, they would sell for less than the brand new retail clubs because they were used. I kind of miss those days.

Now it would be really nice if a seller of tour equipment just advertised his or her wares in a matter of fact manner. No hype, no sales pitch, no BS about performance enhancement. But that's not going to happen. So if someone wants to present a tour item for what it really is, such as the case here: (Here's the visual difference between the retail 300 forged and the Lehman grind) I think it's great! Now you as a consumer can judge whether you want to pay the difference.

Answer to earlier question: On the whole, we tour club ho's are a neurotic bunch.

And it's too bad we are so easily preyed upon.

'nuff said.

P.S. This is all only about "tour issue" equipment. Imports are another ball of wax entirely.

[joey3108]

I will try to make this clearer, Not to try any useless arguement here. My point here is only to educate people , so if they bought one they won't get screwed.

I have 3 sets here in my hand and checked them w/ my Mitutoyo gauge. It might be exist out there some set that are slighly different than this one but I doubt it. It shouldn't be that much at all. Most OEM only do a special work to it if you are in the top rank players. Like a lot of them saying "only for Tiger or Ernie or ?, What's for me?"

I've check also the grove depth , lenght, width and distance from one grove to another. This proved that they are coming from the same forging die. When they just came out of the last die, they ussually are a little heavier due to x tra metal to grind to perfection to the template shape. Plus It doesn't make sense if TM has to spend more money to make another sets of die only to make the cavity thicker. The cavity is basically the only part that they can't grind, "face" they have a certain guidance to make sure the depth of the grove is consistent. So they can't grind it to little, cause the grove will be to deep and become ILLEGAL.

-Toe has been modified

Yes, Correct And off course.

-the topline is thicker

Yes, To make up the metal they lost on the toe but If you look at it closely, IT's just not that much at all.

-grind is different to prevent digging

The 3 sets that I have here are completely the same exact angle and shape. I'm sure i'll get some more of this set in my hand to blue print.

"Some say" that the amount of steel that is removed from the toe is more like 10 to 15 grams.

I wonder who said this. Do you know how much metal you get out of 10 - 15 grams, That is probably half of the toe shape from the edge toe to the grove bead blast line.

Last but not least, Even a master grinder of any major forging house will never be able to grind them to the "EXACT" shape one to another. Remember, they are still grinding this clubs using their eyes, hand and grinder. Yes they've added a few machine since then to reduce some of the labor involve ( definitely less labor w/ cast club ) , but they still can't make them completely w/ machines only 100%. However, Because of their technique, having a template, and trained skill...Most of us can't see the different.

Hope this clear some air!

Cheers!

Joe