player CB vs "GI" player CB

[primo]

It seems to me that there is this growing affection on this site for the so called game improvement player CB. By that I mean the slightly oversized, extremely forgiving irons like the MP-27, T-Zoid and the Gauge Design irons. These are different than what I call player CB's. To me player CB's are the MR-23, Z101, MP-30, or Scratch CB. These irons provide incredible feel and feedback, setup IDENTICAL to a blade. I would challange anyone that is holding one of these clubs at address and try and tell it apart from any modern blade offering.

Now I don't doubt the technology that is put into these next generation CB's, but for me personally, they are not in the same league as the player CB's. The same way that player CB's don't compare to blades, these new irons in my opinion don't compare to player cb's. Although they do provide more forgiveness and probably for a lot of people more distance... Neither of which are characteristics I look for in a set of irons.

Just based on some of the reviews I have seen, they seem somewhat misleading. It's pretty tough to compare 2 totally different clubs. For those of you that own say the MP-27 or GD irons, I'd really love to hear your opinions on this.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this one... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I hope no one flames you :wink:

I consider MP-27s and GD Irons players Cb's. To me a player is not only a better player but also someone who prefers players clubs, the same guy who buys a stiff flex 9.5 when he should be hitting a 10 in reg. I consider myself a player :laugh:

Your right they are slightly over sized but does that mean we need to create a new category for them? I don't think the difference is that much.

How about the Hiro Matsumoto Irons, they have less offset then some blades also blade like top line yet have a bigger cavity than the MR-23's.

This could also bring up, are the PRGR 900 Irons really blades? If you define the word cavity I don't think they are.

Is the difference somewhere between the MP30 and MP27, I have a set of each, I think they are both players Cb's, just not as player as the MR23's.

The Gd's on the other hand are a bit bigger than the MP27's, but IMHO the " Players " club thing is overrated, especially in the U.S. What I have noticed in Japan is that Japanese with the same SS as an American will use almost one flex less. Its our Ego :whistle:

Do you think the GD protos look player or game improvement? Because they are advertised as Players CB and there is another proto CB that is advertised GI.

Here are pics of the proto CB next to the GD proto blade.

I think by your definition it would be a GI :-D Am I right?

[primo]

The proto CB is the one on the left right? Er correct? It looks to me that the topline is a little thicker than the blade, however that could just be the angle. Don't get me wrong Chris, I don't think the MP27's or GS should be anywhere near the same category as say the Cally BB irons or say Adams. However I have always felt there should be a couple different categories for irons. I felt that way every since I bought a set of tzoid irons that I thought were going to be like mp-14's but CB's. Don't ask me how I came up with that conclusion, remember this was basically before the internet. Anyway it arrived at my door and I was OVERLY UNDERWHELMED. I hated them, and so began my search for the right set of irons. Chris, you said that the mp30 and the 27 are player, but not as much as the mr-23. Why is that? What is it about the mr-23 that makes it more player?

I am with you that the PRGR blades are yet another category. My dad used to play those, they are oversized blades and the long irons are really more like hybrids.

I'm not going to touch the shaft flex thing, that's another thread altogether. I guess I just wanted to raise the awareness for these clubs that are out.

[xxio]

I believe that there is a distinction between GI-Player's CB and player's CBs. GI-player's CBs are for me basically GI size (midsize-slightly oversize) but with "player's attributes"= less/no offset, thinner topline, versatile sole grinds. Totally different from Player's CBs because of SIZE.

I mostly play what under my criteria would be player's CBs, I would however classify my X16PS as GI-Player's CBs and they do play like them. Slightly more forgiving than everything else I play but just slightly to big for me comfort.

Just like there are forgiving blades (MP33s) and not so forgiving blades(TN87s). They are different animals from the same genus.

[+TourSpecGolfer]

What is it about the mr-23 that makes it more player?

Hmm good question, It must be the many days my swing was off and the MR-23's punished me. I am borderline double digit now and I think the MR-23s are a little too Player for my game. I'm sure a few others have been delt a reality check by the 23's.. :punch:

well maybe we can give it a name guys, GI-Cb? Mid players cavity? or ???

I don't know what to call it, all I do know is a lot of this is personal opinion. I personally think game improvement irons are like X-16, BB2002, XXIO, Cobra SS-I, G2's, and titty 804's.

[Mikey]

Primo... I happen to agree with YOU.

I think a lot of people including myself get very misled by advertising hype over so called, "Player" type Cb's

I also bought a set of cb's (Mizuno MP-30's) and hated them!

Although the MP-30's do look blade similar, the offset on the seven iron down to the wedge drove me nuts!

I have only seen a couple of sets of true player Cb's and the absolute best looking is the MR-23's! IMHO

I also agree with Chris from the standpoint that there are people out there that are playing clubs more fit for better players.

I personally play to about a 12 handicap.

I happen to be currently playing the Scratch Cb's and also have two sets of the MR-23's, due to different shaft options.

I may not be a good enough player from day to day to play these true "Players" type Cb's, but I would gladly sacrifice a little forgiveness for a club I like to look at.

I guess you might like to compare it to the guy that marries the ugly wife, but boy she sure can cook!

Me.... I prefer the looker and I can take her to dinner.

[golfdr]

Well - I will add my thoughts to this. First off I am a single digit handicap and my main problem is a bad hole or two. I have played irons from Ping to the MR23's. My handicap has not really changed over that time. I truthfully see three different types of irons - game improvement irons like Callaway, Ping, Adams, next are player CB's - which I put Hogans, Tourstage, Taylor Made, Titleist, GD, etc. then the last is players clubs - most blades and I would add some of the CB's like MR23s. Players clubs to me are clubs that require you have a good swing every time. I am looking at new clubs as we speak - I am just not sure what will fill my need at the present time. I love the 23's and I do not feel that they are costing me strokes, but I am upset in the 3 and 4 iron. I have no difference in distance from 3 to 5.

[MIura5001]

I think the intention of your post is true that there are some CB irons like the MR-23 and 300 Lehman Box toe that are really blades disguised as CB's. I personally love blades even in the long irons because of the immediate feedback they provide. I've tried several CB models and have always retreated back to blades. However, if you were to hold a gun to my head and force me to play CB's, I would put those MR-23 or Lehman toe boxes in the bag no problem.

[hornyjuan]

If you define headsize as the only thing that distinguishes a regular cb from a "players" cb then yes the mr-23 cb's, rac cb's are all so called player's cb's. There are also so-called regular cb's that have thin toplines, little offset making them just regular cb's and not players cb's like the z101's and mp30's. :-D

As far as playability, if players cb's have to play blade like and not as forgiving as regular cb's then yes the mr23's fit in that category. The 23's are no doubt great irons and even better lookers. But I have moved on to find irons that fit my game better and not the other way around. I'm in no way trying to argue with you Primo but I don't really care if what I play (GD CB irons) is classified as a players cb, regular cb, or game improvement.

Everyone comes to this board to read about golf gear as well as get opinions about what is good and what is not. If someone says that they feel this iron plays like a players cb then that's their opinion. If you have a problem with people claiming that certain irons are so called players cb's then that's something you can't stop because there is no set math formula to make a players cb. One person's opinion is one person's opinion and you have to respect that.

[lohrm1]

Having hit or owned most of the clubs listed, I'll dive in on this one too. I believe there are players blades and CB's (MR-23's, Miura,etc.) and GI irons (BB's, Ping I3's, etc.) and almost a separate category that is somewhere between the two. This is where I'd put the GD irons. I've owned MR-23 CB's, TM CB's and both Pings and Callaway irons and currently have a set of Miura blades and GD CB's. When you first look at the GD irons they clearly look bigger and different than a more "traditional" set of player CB's. Hit them a few rounds and the more traditional irons start to look pretty small in comparison. Add to that the forgiveness and feel of the GD irons and they are really hard to beat. A good comparison would be in drivers. I currently play a TM 510 DF and remember how big it first looked compared to a 975D. Now you look at the 975D and it looks SOOO small in comparison. In the final scheme of things, getting used to the look of the GD irons is worth the additional forgiveness and feel you'll get from them. Truly great irons.

[lightrider]

If you've hit MR-23 blades and CBs, then you know the CBs are definetly Player's CB. I started with Cleveland Quadpros, TA5s, then MR-23s, and fiddle with some X-16 PS. These all play very differently in terms of ball flight(COG), look(offset), and forgiveness(size of head). I find that I can play X-16s and MR-23s any day of the week but if I haven't played in a couple of weeks, X-16s are alot better bet. Now there are some very forgiving blades, like MP-33s and Mac V-foils and I think they are at the same level of 23 CBs in terms of playability.

[Godfather1]

I agree with primo that there are some player cb's that are not exactly player cb's, however they are not what you call gi. But a gi player cb still has most of the characteristics of a player cb even though they don't look like a blade at address. Also a lot of the people probably could use the extra forgiveness, but for me even though I know I probably should use a x-16 but I can't stand the look and therefore I am getting a set of scratch. I have also compared a set of mp30 to tit. 804 and I hit the miz. just as well because when I look down I have confidence that I can hit it even though on mis**ts I might get more punished than the tit. 804 but the offset just knocks me off. I have never seen the gd or mp-27 in person but I would assume they are very similiar to player cb's although the miz. more than the gd since they have the jacked lofts. However after all this I would have to say they should not be in a different category.

[jonny5]

I thought there are 3 categories. As we can all agree GI-irons are like the cally GBB or the tit. 822 OS. The medium which Primo was refering to is (correct me if i'm wrong) "Game Enhancement" clubs. They are blade look like clubs with cavity that helps. Players clubs are the blades...I guess you can further break the blades down if you want, GE blades and players blades.

But ya, Game enhancement is that middle point.

[haribo]

Well, frankly my opinion about this will get me flamed for sure.

Here it goes anyway.

I belief clubs don't make someone a player at all. Doesn't matter what style of clubs a person plays. The simple categorisation into Game Improvement, Player's CB's or whatever in a marketing tool and means squad otherwise.

IMO consistantly playing in the low 70's on different courses makes someone a player. I have several friends who are close to scratch or even better than that and they play Callaway or Ping or whatever. Bottomline is a player (like we all should) will choose always tools he is comfortable with. Period.

Being an equipment fan or afficionado is a totally different story. We all can appreciate the design of a MR-23 Mizuno or Scratch iron, cb or muscle blade, etc. etc. But to say one cb is a player's club and another club that's slightly bigger in design is not ... well, that's a silly and mute discussion all together.

Discussion like this lead only to even more silly questions. Like this for instance:

Is a true player less of a player just because he uses GI irons to shoot around par?

haribo

P.S.

Due to lack of playing I'm a 11 handicap currently. I call that intermediate. Even if I would switch to any GI irons right now ... I most likely still wouldn't be able to shoot par. On the other hand, as you can see in my WITB I play Firesole Forged irons. They are slightly bigger in design than other CB's. But does that make them more or less a player's club???

Maybe we should ask Ernie Els. Either way I don't know and frankly I don't care. I simply like their looks and feel very comfortable with them. That's all that matters to me.

Flame away.

[AKFLY]

Finally a great subject to cover.

I recently switched to Z101's from TM 300 forged. IMO the 300's are more forgiving but the fel of the Z101's are great and the Z's seem smaller.

I would place the 300's in a category somewhere between GI and palyer. Almost a happy medium for those players that are having a hard time with a player's CB but yet cannot handle the looks and offset of a GI forged club.

I am still in debate between the two sets. Other than the cool factor and softer feel of the Z's I have not noticed any improvment in performance.

[ethan]

Just remember that there are pros on tour playing so called "game improvement irons" and guys like Colin Montgomerie struggled with a blade iron and switched back to a cavity. Buce Fleischer plays with BB irons, and Thorpe uses VFT irons. Most LPGA players use GI irons. Are any of us better than even the lady pros? I don't think so. I think even in the pro ranks more forgiving technology is being embraced, so why not us?

[HipCheck]

Most LPGA players use GI irons.  Are any of us better than even the lady pros?  I don't think so.  I think even in the pro ranks more forgiving technology is being embraced, so why not us?

Good point Ethan.

jonny5 hit it right on the head too, though. I prefer Game Enhancement irons, like my Hogan Apex Edge Pros, to Game Improvement, because they're forged and have less offset.

[primo]

Allow me to clarify one point. Equipment is not a reflection on the player's skill. When I define a set of irons as player's irons, it simply means that these irons are basically blades, but have the additional forgiveness of CB's. GI refers to any technology used to make the club more forgiving. Yes you could argue that CB automatically means GI, but like we've been discussing, there are tons of variations and options when it comes to GI. One thing for sure, the more forgiving the less feel (Feedback).

On a personal note, I am no where near scratch golfer. I wouldn't classify myself as a "player" as I am by far the worst golfer out of the group I play with. There are guys in my group that play x-14s, vfoil, there's even a guy with the entire adams set (+1 handi). Now everyone says that golf isn't about how rather how many. Well it's not quite that way for me. golf is as much about how as it is how many... on second thought I'll start a new thread...

[jonny5]

Yes, I agree with Primo..

Player's club, Game Enhancement club, Game Improvement club are just categories for the equipment not for the user.