jboy

Does this apply to Futuras too ??? I've always liked the Ping B60 butterfly shape.

Tourtuned, I'd disagree with Leadbetter, Vijays hands (note plural) the left is still on the club and hasn't rotated as much as people would think, his right hand has come off the club (the palm certainaly has) but if you look at the writing on the grip, I can't see this big rotation that his withered ET hand would suggest. Both hands work in tandem, had there been a over pornounced roll, you'd see it in a hinged left wrist of rolled with knuckles pointing to the ground. Maybe the camera is lying but I'd love to see high speed stills of his hands coming through the impact zone, I'd call it 'Vijays Hand Jive' if his set up is normal then his hand is slipping around the club or moving somewhere, both hands aren't working in tandem as the left looks Okay in these shots. How a teaching Pro can say that's good is beyond me. Does anybody else studied this, I'd like to know why Vijay has a kack-knackered grip ???

.... and these pictures are of ???? Vijays hands ???? That just doesn't look right, no way should the hand be coming off the grip like that ! In the top picture he looks like ET swinging the club!

I know when I die and go to play in the golden golf course in the sky that there won't be any Titanium 450cc clubs in the bag of clubs that St Peter gives me, it will be a deep faced MacGregor M43 Tourney persimmon with the tightest grain pattern you've ever seen, with a leather grip and maybe a Rifle shaft in it :P Someone else want to elaborate on their afterlife Iron choice ??

I forgot to ask Chris if a " Under Warranty Repair Return" sticker could be stuck on the package, here in the U.K I wouldn't have to pay sales tax if I could bluff it was returned for repair, tax already paid. 17.5% of $235 is better in my back pocket than going to the govt. coffers Do you guys pay sales tax on import stuff, would this fly in the US as a workaround ??

TM are letting it happen for a reason, I am with the school that as a corporation they are dialed into the ebay tour balck market thing. Gary Adams that set uo TM knew to lose the link with the tour and premium quality was the key to success in the golf market. Founders, his second company went down the tubes, those of us that remember it had it tagged as crap, it didn't start out that way and it was controlling Japanese business interests that derailled the product line, lost prestige, acceptance and bombed TM is owned by Adidas and they been at the same stuff with soccer equipment. They changed their designs to accomodate embroidery of the boots tongue so everybody could have the same as the Pro's do.... then they started modifying the sole and cleet patterns, Michael Ballack of Bayern Munich had custom Predator boots with half molded/half screw in studs... you can buy them on ebay. They sell replicas AND player only shirts... at a premium. Ping in the early 80's played on extended lead times for their Eye 2's ... what sort of effect do you think that had on sales, people cancelling orders and buying Mizuno Dominos ?? No way, it just fuelled the fire, increased sales and folk just waited 3 months + for sticks.. it actually created the myth that everybody wanted Ping and drummed up even more demand. TM sales hit the skids around the System 2 time and then we had the dark years with bubble shafts when they were getting murdered by Callaway. Now they are back on top and I think they too indulge in a bit of Kool-Aiding, difference is Titleist keep the tour stuff for Tour guys and they are no longer number one in drivers but in the putter dept Titleist are #1 and just look at the number of Scott Cameron protos and tour issues out there! I think it was a marketing ploy and it works, Joe Bloggs now knows that the stuff in the pro bags isn't the same as what's on the shelf in the Pro shop TM are playing up on this fact and it aids off the rack club sales[/img]

Thanks Mike, I just composed a PM to Chris and you are spot on. The tour spec stuff Chris supplies always attracts mucho attention on and off the course, some of it unwanted from theives. God forbid anything happens to it :P

Hi Chris, for those of us who have ordered the bags, will receipts ship with the bags ?? Needed for insurance purposes as proof that it is indeed Japanese imported goods. Cheers!

And if you truly believe you are 30 yards longer then you never actually hit a persimmon wood full on or it was all spec'd wrong for your swing (weight, shaft, loft). Given a current persimmon driver with a 45" Graphite shaft and the ProVxs., you wouldn't notice the difference... the old persimmon drivers were up to 2" shorter so you can't fully compare 80's golfing to 2004 tecno becuase the actual specs don't marry up. I switched in the mid 80's because Metal was cheaper and easier to maintain plus you could try many different lofts off the peg Bottom line is the companies deinvested in persimmon because the margins are so low and it's a labor intensive process making these woods, Tour pros don;t play it because they don't get played to pay it, in the world of the chump, you've bought all the hype, it was all Kool-Aid, there is no real difference. So to blow some Myths out of the water: Frequently Asked Questions What is the COR of persimmon? The COR of Persimmon is .78 The current COR ceiling as directed by the USGA is .83 In theory this translates into a possible distance advantage of 2% for the higher COR Titanium driver. The reason I say, in theory, is because actual test results don't duplicate what is supposed to happen in theory. We had Golf Labs, an independent testing facility in California, test our SMART2 Driver against a legal COR Titleist driver. We built the clubs keeping everything the same in both clubs except the head material. Same shaft, same flex, same length, same launch angle, and same swing speed and impact point which was determined by the golf robot. The results of the test were that the Smart2 Driver hit the ball 1.8 yards further than the Ti driver. We have also player tested where both drivers were hit under the same conditions. The results show there is no difference in distance between the two head materials. Frequently Asked Questions Have your questions answered. Ask a question | View other FAQs Why do higher cor drivers not hit the ball further in real life? To understand you first have to understand COR. This is not the trampoline effect that marketing people show it to be. A simple explanation is that when two objects collide, there is a loss of energy during the collision. When a club face strikes a golf ball, the golf ball is deformed (flattened). There is a loss of energy when the ball flattens. If the face of the club gives a little, then the ball doesn't flatten as much and less energy is lost in the collision and more is retained by the ball. The more energy retained the faster the ball leaves the face and the further it can travel. To take full advantage of the slightly higher COR of the Titanium driver a couple of things have to happen. 1) The swing speed of the head has to be fast enough to allow the face of the Ti driver to "give" a little. If the swing speed is not high enough, there is no give in the face and no advantage for the thin face. 2) The ball has to be struck in a very small area of the face (dead center) for the face to "give". Hit it off center even a little and you lose the advantage. In most real life situations, the clubhead speed and the dead center hit don't occur to make a difference. If persimmon performs just as well as metal, why don't you see more golfers playing with it? The most significant equipment improvement has been the ball. Balls fly further and spin less than ever before. When the solid/two piece ball was introduced the USGA and everyone else knew you could hit it further no matter what the head material. However, these balls were hard and didn't spin like the wound balls, and couldn't be controlled around the greens. The USGA decided these balls would never be an issue because the tour pros would never use them. High handicap golfers looking for more distance might use them, but that would be okay. As a result of that. Then advances in technology allowed ball manufacturers to make the two piece ball softer and with the ability to control spin rate. When the new balls were introduced to the PGA Tour driving averages went up 10 yards. The second most significant equipment improvement is the shaft. Graphite shafts are lighter and more consistent now, which allows the golfer to swing a lighter or longer club. Golfers can swing a lighter and longer club faster, generating more clubhead speed, which allows them to hit the ball further. When metal woods were introduced they were quickly married to lighter and longer graphite shafts, since the technologies of both rose at about the same time. Persimmon, which was traditionally married with a heavier and shorter steel shaft was then being compared to the metal clubs with lighter and longer graphite shafts. This was an unfair comparison and was a huge factor in why golfers began thinking Persimmon isn't as long as metal. On a then largely uneducated public, it made sense to most golfers that metal produced a longer drive than wood. There is another interesting factor that works in concert with this, and that is the sound that a metal club makes at impact. It is a louder sound that assumes more kinetic energy, but is largely smoke and mirrors. We have heard the clangs and tings on our home course many times, only to walk to the ball and discover that the loud noise we heard was more bark than bite. In other words, the loud sound of a metal club when compared to the pleasing thump of a Persimmon wood has fooled some golfers into thinking that metal is superior. Yet another factor responsible for PGA Tour pros hitting the ball so far is their physical conditioning. These guys train and work out like other athletes, foregoing the traditional drinking and smoking hard life that was such a hallmark of golden age golfers. Modern golfers are stronger, more flexible and in better condition than previous generations of golfers. Inaccuracies in the press and advertising world of the golf business use the combination of all these factors to promote a club's superiority over another, and Persimmon has gotten lost in the process. A part of the innocence of the golfing public has made them susceptible to misleading marketing messages. For example, the furor talked about at the beginning of the 2003 PGA Tour schedule when Ernie Els switched from brand x to brand y, and while in the process gaining 10 or 15 more yards by switching from a brand x's driver to a brand y driver. Els' additional length then had nothing to do with the head material of the club, but everything to do with switching from a steel to a graphite shaft and using a different ball that got him closer to the optimum spin rate he needed to maximize his ball flight. What the average golfer sees is that the brand y driver hit it farther, missing the point (because it was rarely given) that his specs had been adjusted. This shadowing of the facts to sell a new offering, a driver that incidentally made brand y's previous model introduced a year earlier obsolete, has played into the shelving of Persimmon as a choice for golfers. And from a business standpoint it is as simple as the overhead it takes to create a Persimmon golf club; no stock market golf conglomerate in their right mind would vote to invest in the craftsman and materials needed to manufacture Persimmon woods on a large scale. Not when they can cast and glue a metal club at a fifth of the cost, save a ton of capital, then pay the superstars ridiculous amounts of money to play and promote their clubs. We have ten craftsman (most have been with the company for over 20 years) who walk every head made here in Louisville through the more than 100 hand operations it takes to complete a Persimmon golf club. They are virtually the last paid artisans of their kind. So given all that, and to answer the question, most golfer's don't realize Persimmon is still a good choice for them. And that's our mission, to keep Persimmon in the game as a choice - a very good choice - for all golfers.

Agreed, I had the similiar discussion last week on the course with a pensioner about the old british 1.62 diameter ball, I advocate that I hit it as far as a ProVx, the old Dunlop 65 was a much better wind ball than the American sized ball and more workable. If anything golf balls these days are more expensive and a little more durable. Looking at driving yardage increases, it's minimal. A club head is a club head, all it does is get in the way of the golf ball and compress it and if you gave Els a R7 or an Old Tour Burner, he'd hit them the same distance, these big bean cans only aid the off center hits, keeping them straighter and a little longer, hitting it on the button doesn't gain you anything. John Daly 2004 4 John Daly 302.4 2003 2 John Daly 314.3 2003 1 John Daly 306.8 2002 1 John Daly 306.7 2001 1 John Daly 301.4 1999 1 John Daly 305.6 1990 8 Davis Love III 276.6 2004 8 Davis Love III 299.2 So J Daly hasn't seen any real big increase over 5 years even though he's changed shafts and head manufactures (Callaway, Titleist, etc) in this period plus using these 'better balls' Best example is Davis Love, who in 97 changed from persimmon to state of the art Titanium has gained 25 yds in 15 years !!!! And some of the clowns round here state they've gained 30 yds when frankly they couldn't burst a grape with their Sunday Best complete bull sh*t Delofting Irons was a marketing ploy to get Joe Bloggs to buy gap wedges he doesn't need (in fact it's so bad that manufactures no longer sell 9 iron sets in the U.K and Europe), put simply we don't get as many clubs for our bucks now. Not to mention it's destroyed the art of shotmaking. It's all Kool-Aid from Al'Cushnet lunatic fringe golf equipment fundamentists... brianwashed we are. Yes, I have nice gear but it not going to make me play any better than a set half the price but it looks real good on the first tee , that's it. :P I think a good idea would be to make the Masters a persimmon, blades, steel shaft, v groove, no lob wedge only tournament which leaves me wondering who the hell would win it ??

both links don't work !

From B/S/T Wedgehound. FYI: Don't bid on these irons: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW These are pictures of MY irons, i had them on ebay, sold them, and this person stole my pictures and wording!!! Evil or Very Mad Again, these are not his irons, maybe he has a set, but its NOT THESE, these are pictures I took of MY clubs, and he stole them... I don't want anyone to get burned! thanks

Any pics of this headcover ??

More fake garage knock up tour clubs ?? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...3676782678&rd=1

I set of TP2000's either standard or even better finished like the above would be nice.

I've hit the 690 MBs and the MP33s at the range and couldn't feel the difference, felt very similar, but again that's with range balls, true test would be a ProV or HX tour test drive on hardpan summer fairways. I agree, biggest deciding factor would be quality of finish, sounds like Mizuno heads that up.

Great responses. I think most people round here objectively look at the tour clubs and judge them on peformance and playability rather than keeping sticks in their bag as some sort of totem. All the bag profiles here are mix of retail, import and some strange quirky clubs, a bag that works. My main point was that equipment manufacturers have played up on 'prototyping' to create mass hysteria That Scotty Cameron garage putter at the bottom of a pond was just pure Hollywood!

These phrases mean nothing nowadays, Scotty Cameron appears to have built 500,000 prototypes but has a product line of 200 or so, with all the tours around the world there must be a billion tour issue clubs out there, guys in their workshop garages knocking out stamped up fakes. Who really cares ??? Half the clowns buying this crap couldn't thrash their way out of a wet paper bag. First up all these tour shop knock ups look crap anyway in my book, they have a shelf life of a prawn sandwich (once they launch into production, it's old hat) Shouldn't we be happy with production run clubs that meet our specs and needs... or do we have to satisfy our need to pose and fuel our ego of having pre-tour release equipment ?? Where is your balance? Playability, aesthetics, uniqueness, innovation, how do you weight them ??

PxExG, did you get your 670s from your Titleist reps allocation or did you get them from the states/ebay?? Seeing as your are in Ireland it would have been easier to get a set of 680's. Up until recently the 680s were the LTD edition set listed on the titleist.co.uk website, they've now ducked out and the 670's are on the website. I've checked the pics out and I can't see the difference in the muscle on the 670/690's.... the 680's it's very noticable. The length of the blade and compactness of the head maybe, probelm is I haven't seen the 690/670 side by side in any pro shop. From memory I have no recollection on the top line. I'm all bug eyed here trying to compare the two pics from the web site and have a sore head now. :cry:

So what you are really saying that short, fat guys don't play Ping ??? Most blade players are athletic and average on the taller side.. club manufacturers would tailor their product to the targetted audience.... what's the bets that Vijays and Ernies clubs aren't 5* upright. Fact is there must be no need for 5* upright blades either by design or that all the tour guys they fit up have horrible goofy swings and posture, us Amateurs stall tall like Greek golfing Gods.... NOT! Benny, are you 7 foot tall with 8 inch long arms or something ??? Maybe the PIng fitment guy measured you up with your fist clenched and a pair of Cuban heels on. :P

From the pictures I'd say you're hooding the clubhead at address...... are you slicing the ball PxExG ?? :lol:

if you take the camber off the soles of the 670's aren't you now just playing a set of 690 MB's ?

Tourspec, so adjusting the lie and length also comes under the umbrella of blueprinting? The question is if you just do the above and don't FLO the shafts and have dowels inserted, can you class the clubs as blueprinted ?? What is the major key components to it ??

Thanks Mike, You say Titliest don't do this anymore. I see a lot of people state here their clubs are blueprinted especially the Project X playing guys, I can see them placing the dowels in but FLOing the shafts too, seems a bit excessive for a OEM like Titleist to be doing. Any way to tell if a set has the dowels in them ???

Excuse the ignorance, someone said their PX shafts were blueprinted. What does this mean ??