Quality of Japanese Clubs

[ramizuno13]

It is without a doubt that the japanese manu. design and produce some of the finest equipment in the world. Why is it that company increasingly cut corners, but still charge top-rate prices? Examples are as follows without naming names: Hosels that are welded on the clubhead instead of being forged from one piece. Finishing done outside of Japan. Clubs completely manufactured outside of Japan, etc... Even the company I work for is guilty of some of these offences.

[corky3]

one word...... 'profit'.... not everybody that works at a company is concerned with the quality.

[ramizuno13]

Your right, but, Most of these companies don't spend alot on advertisment. At least not compared to the US companies. I can't believe the prices for Muira irons. Even the company I work for is starting to finish their clubs outside of Japan. I think Scracth Golf has the right idea. Total custom. Makes me want to quit the company I work for. Just a thought! Any other opinions?

[taipanli]

Your right, but, Most of these companies don't spend alot on advertisment. At least not compared to the US companies. I can't believe the prices for Muira irons. Even the company I work for is starting to finish their clubs outside of Japan. I think Scracth Golf has the right idea. Total custom. Makes me want to quit the company I work for. Just a thought! Any other opinions?

I concur with your concerns. I wonder if the MP60s for the Japan market are forged in Japan or do they come from the same source as those made for the US market? Fyi, MP60s in Japan are retailing for US$1,200 vs. US retail price of $849! how is the $350 premium justified? Personally I've never been too concerned about where an iron is forged or where a driver is assembled (perhaps I should be) but how do you account for the huge premiums if they're exactly the same club. Yes the products made for Japan will at times incorporate more technological features (in woods more so than irons) but it's all becoming a little confusing now.

Thank you for raising this point and I hope others will chime in.

[sniperjoe]

Yeah, I think it's all getting very confusing. How do you justify the markup of the Mizuno's. They are all made the same right?

IMO, golf is just like the other things in life. Everyone forgets about the meaning or purpose; people get selfish, greedy, etc... and now we (consumers) are very confused because on one side we know about mark-ups for advertising and clubs being made cheaply, but on the other side, we don't even know if spending the extra money is worth it because we don't even know where all the equipment is coming from. We just go off of what we are told or by what we think is true.

There is no question about equipment made exclusively in Japan compared to other places. It's just better! But where do we draw the line? Are Mizunos sold in the U.S. the same as those sets sold in Japan? This question could be used with many brands and many different products. Manufacturers, Retail Stores, etc... want us to be in the dark.

Am I wrong?

[tour-md]

Yeah, I think it's all getting very confusing. How do you justify the markup of the Mizuno's. They are all made the same right?

IMO, golf is just like the other things in life. Everyone forgets about the meaning or purpose; people get selfish, greedy, etc... and now we (consumers) are very confused because on one side we know about mark-ups for advertising and clubs being made cheaply, but on the other side, we don't even know if spending the extra money is worth it because we don't even know where all the equipment is coming from. We just go off of what we are told or by what we think is true.

There is no question about equipment made exclusively in Japan compared to other places. It's just better! But where do we draw the line? Are Mizunos sold in the U.S. the same as those sets sold in Japan? This question could be used with many brands and many different products. Manufacturers, Retail Stores, etc... want us to be in the dark.

Am I wrong?

Valid point. I love buying, collecting, and trying new clubs. Over the past few years I've concentrated more on my game than building my bag. Recently, I remember getting my clock cleaned by someone twenty years my senior with a Costco set of 845s and a putter that appeared to come out of one of those "throwaway" bags outside of Play it Again Sports. He fired a 68.

Is it worth it? From a practical standpoint probably not however if it makes you feel good and you have the disposable income then more power to you...

[ramizuno13]

I glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. By the way, all Mizzy's are forged in Japan, but "They" are finished in China. I just found this out by mistake. They don't talk about this at the company picnic! And why does Mizuno charge more for the same product in Japan?! That's where it's made. Also, clubs made in Japan are of higher quality than those made anywhere else. Higher standards.

[sniperjoe]

With the irons and putters, I don't think who makes it matters as much as with the driver. Like taipanli said, the performance can probably be seen more in the drivers and fairway woods that come from japan. I also know that the japanese iron sets look better than what is sold in the states, but I havn't used any of the sets so I don't know how they perform.

I'm really thinking about saving up for the PRGR T3 Black though. That driver looks really sweet to me.

I hope someone who really know the truth about Mizuno or any other manufacturer chimes in here soon, because I really want to know what the deal is. Brands that are sold both in Japan and the U.S. are equal or not?

[taipanli]

I glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. By the way, all Mizzy's are forged in Japan, but "They" are finished in China. I just found this out by mistake. They don't talk about this at the company picnic! And why does Mizuno charge more for the same product in Japan?! That's where it's made. Also, clubs made in Japan are of higher quality than those made anywhere else. Higher standards.

I'm a little confused. So you're saying the Japan Mizzys are forged in Japan but the US Mizzys are made in China? Or are all Mizzys forged in Japan but the clubs destined for the US get finished in China?

[golfbuddy]

I alway thought or felt that the Mizuno clubs sold in the US are second to the ones marketed in Japan and Europe. For example, the MS series vs. the MP series (US). I saw an MX-23 that sold in Japan and the finish was much much better than the US version. But then, it listed at $1,300 in Japan. Quite a difference in price and also quality.

Edited January 11, 2006 by golfbuddy

[ramizuno13]

I'm a little confused. So you're saying the Japan Mizzys are forged in Japan but the US Mizzys are made in China? Or are all Mizzys forged in Japan but the clubs destined for the US get finished in China?

Sorry about the confusion. All Mizuno irons(for all world markets) are forged in Japan. The final chroming and polishing are done in China. This does not include the custom grind / logo'd irons(these are 100% Japanese). We get what everyone else gets. I just think that the price should reflect the the lower standards being used now. JMO

[taipanli]

Sorry about the confusion. All Mizuno irons(for all world markets) are forged in Japan. The final chroming and polishing are done in China. This does not include the custom grind / logo'd irons(these are 100% Japanese). We get what everyone else gets. I just think that the price should reflect the the lower standards being used now. JMO

Ok gotcha. I think what's unique for Mizzy Japan is all the custom options available. :tsg_smilie_cool:

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Good Topic and some very good points,

I have learned that it doesn't matter so much where the club is made but how it is designed. For example I play the XD-435 and TM R7425 drivers, they are both made in China yet perform just as good as whats made in Japan. The PRGR T3 Driver is what I consider the highest quality driver on the market in regards to materials and pure design yet it still comes down to the person swinging the club as we all know.

Stock Mizuno is still great even if its finished in China, It is obvious that the custom sets have quite a bit more luster to them yet IMO Custom grinds are not such a big deal, The majority of pros don't have special grinds and they have swings that make contact the same way almost every shot. There are also grinds that add negative performing characteristics to the head. I'm able to order any grind for my swing possible yet stick with standard because when it comes down to performance, exact C.O.G location, and proved tech data, Its the original design they created that works the best for the majority of golfers. I have had 7 sets of custom grind mizunos, none perform any better to the retail grind. Its useful for blending combo sets, and adjusting offset, but when you get into changing to a progressive offset with a square toe and a little relief here and there you end up changing the entire clubs playing characteristics to something other than what was tested to be the top performing design concept.

In regards to Miura, they do make top quality product and they honestly feel the 2 piece head design has a beneficial effect to performance. I would like to hit one forged out of a single piece but I'm sure the difference is minimal even to the pro golfer.

Most OEMs start with quality in mind, then they seek better profits or a bigger name with more advertising and need to cut a few corners, also Japanese factorys can only handle so much after a while then its a necessity to make their clubs in china if they don't own their own factory i.e Mizuno, PRGR, Miura etc. What I don't want is retail end prices to be affected by what they spend in player endorsements. Nike has done a great job of keeping prices down even with their top players costing them big bucks.

[shoe295]

Retail is Retail regardless of location. Price is always dictated by the market so if you can charge the equivalent of $1300 in Japan while the same item costs $890 in the USA it's because that's what folks will pay. Always remember that the goal is to make money and if your price point is too high you don't sell enough to make any profit; conversely if the price point is too low you sell a lot but leave some dollars (or euros or yen) on the table. Granted that seems obvious but sometimes the obvious is overlooked. As too why the Japanese market will command a premium price I have no clue, but command one it does.

I agree with Chris that design is the key ingredient as that directly leads to the performance characteristics of the club. I also know that performance characteristics have very little to do with price point. A Cobra driver does not perform $500 less than a TM R7TP (or does it?) but the price difference is there for the world to see. Does the Cobra cost $500 less to make than the TM product? Do I even need to ask that question? Anybody think that Callaway FT series is $100 better than Cleveland's Launcher? Does it hit the ball $100 better, farther, straighter, more consistantly? Yet look at the price. Each manufacturer has created their own image and prices themselves according to that image regardless of the product they sell. What they are really selling is the image. Quick example then I'll be quiet...For those in the states, Wal-Mart is the discount king but do you think they actually sell every item cheaper than anyone else? Not on your life, very few items actually are significantly cheaper, some are even way more expensive but people buy it from them thinking they are getting a deal because Wal-Mart has the image of selling everything cheaper than anyone.

Now if I wanted to play devil's advocate I'd bring the premium one pays for "Tour Clubs" as opposed to retail because they are made differently, but I won't bring that up so just forget I mentioned it.

[sniperjoe]

Wow, great stuff. LOL.

This is the post I've been waiting for.

[Polymer]

Does it perform 500 dollars yes? For the person using it, it might. Does it shave .25 strokes off your game (for that particular person) and is that worth 500 dollars? For some it might be image but if you're into getting the right gear for you, does it matter if the shaft is 20, 50 or 500 dollars? Is it worth it to shave a stroke or a fraction of a stroke? I'd say a majority of the golf forum people spend far more than that to shave fractions of strokes or for high handicappers, full strokes. When rounds of $75+ are commonplace, you better believe something that performs somewhat better for that specific person is worth the money. It's the same argument I use to people not using a premium ball when it's obvious it performs better for them. If a 10 dollar a dozen ball is the best ball for you, you should use it but if the premium ball is performing better for you, are you really concerned about the price of the ball when you just spend 80 dollars to play (or 40 dollars or whatever). Not to mention all the time you spent on the range, etc, etc. Sure it sucks to lose a 3-4 dollar ball vs. a 1 dollar ball but when it's saved you a stroke or two or even a fraction of one, is that significant?

I think you can question the cost to make such an item is not 500 dollars more but there are so many other factors involved in how it's priced.

Off topic:

As far as Wal-mart. On average their items are cheaper. That's factual. Their business model is made so that:

A. They have the cheapest price to the consumer

B. They have greater margin than their competition

C. It's posssible for their Vendors to have greater margin (per item) on their items to Wal-mart even though their sell price to Wal-mart is lower than to other places. (this may seem wrong but it's not)

This is done in how they manage their supply chain, etc, etc. Pretty amazingly what they do on the backend to make things happen.

Retail is Retail regardless of location. Price is always dictated by the market so if you can charge the equivalent of $1300 in Japan while the same item costs $890 in the USA it's because that's what folks will pay. Always remember that the goal is to make money and if your price point is too high you don't sell enough to make any profit; conversely if the price point is too low you sell a lot but leave some dollars (or euros or yen) on the table. Granted that seems obvious but sometimes the obvious is overlooked. As too why the Japanese market will command a premium price I have no clue, but command one it does.

I agree with Chris that design is the key ingredient as that directly leads to the performance characteristics of the club. I also know that performance characteristics have very little to do with price point. A Cobra driver does not perform $500 less than a TM R7TP (or does it?) but the price difference is there for the world to see. Does the Cobra cost $500 less to make than the TM product? Do I even need to ask that question? Anybody think that Callaway FT series is $100 better than Cleveland's Launcher? Does it hit the ball $100 better, farther, straighter, more consistantly? Yet look at the price. Each manufacturer has created their own image and prices themselves according to that image regardless of the product they sell. What they are really selling is the image. Quick example then I'll be quiet...For those in the states, Wal-Mart is the discount king but do you think they actually sell every item cheaper than anyone else? Not on your life, very few items actually are significantly cheaper, some are even way more expensive but people buy it from them thinking they are getting a deal because Wal-Mart has the image of selling everything cheaper than anyone.

Now if I wanted to play devil's advocate I'd bring the premium one pays for "Tour Clubs" as opposed to retail because they are made differently, but I won't bring that up so just forget I mentioned it.

[taipanli]

I think we're veering slightly off the real topic. What Big Mac intended to raise with this thread is whether Japanese clubs can still justify a premium now that an increasing amount is being manufactured outside Japan. We're not discussing whether it's justifiable to spend $50 or $500 on your driver but whether you're actually getting what you pay for with Japanese clubs nowadays.

Chris rightfully points out that part of that premium is a result of the amount of R&D which is the most important aspect. Actual manufacturing location is not a big concern since you would trust these companies to maintain a strict QC level whether they're making their clubs in China, Thailand or Japan. I would concur with that point of view and I've never been to curious about the physical origins of the product.

Identical clubs or balls sell for about a 40% premium in Japan versus the US. Of course you price according to what the market will accept and that's exactly what the Japanese OEMs do. The price differential has nothing to do with supporting their overhead structure. I say this with 100% confidence since the products we get in HK mostly come from the Japanese distributor and not the US yet the pricing level is comparable to the US and not Japan.

Let's keep the discussion going. Spending on golf is completely subjective and this topic is highly relevant and interesting.

[ramizuno13]

This is great! I hope we can continue this even further. By the way, IMO, Chris is right. PRGR does have the best quality out there(don't tell my boss). It's a shame that they pulled out of the US market.

[taipanli]

This is great! I hope we can continue this even further. By the way, IMO, Chris is right. PRGR does have the best quality out there(don't tell my boss). It's a shame that they pulled out of the US market.

They're out of the US retail market but they still have a Tour presence it seems. Check out the Sony Open pics on Golfwrx - there's a pic of a few PRGR utility clubs.

[ramizuno13]

I think we're veering slightly off the real topic. What Big Mac intended to raise with this thread is whether Japanese clubs can still justify a premium now that an increasing amount is being manufactured outside Japan. We're not discussing whether it's justifiable to spend $50 or $500 on your driver but whether you're actually getting what you pay for with Japanese clubs nowadays.

Chris rightfully points out that part of that premium is a result of the amount of R&D which is the most important aspect. Actual manufacturing location is not a big concern since you would trust these companies to maintain a strict QC level whether they're making their clubs in China, Thailand or Japan. I would concur with that point of view and I've never been to curious about the physical origins of the product.

Identical clubs or balls sell for about a 40% premium in Japan versus the US. Of course you price according to what the market will accept and that's exactly what the Japanese OEMs do. The price differential has nothing to do with supporting their overhead structure. I say this with 100% confidence since the products we get in HK mostly come from the Japanese distributor and not the US yet the pricing level is comparable to the US and not Japan.

Let's keep the discussion going. Spending on golf is completely subjective and this topic is highly relevant and interesting.

Thanks for clearing that up Taipanli. I agree with you 100%. It makes my job easier. Piece of mind!

[HipCheck]

Miura spin welds their necks because this helps strengthen the soft carbon steel neck. This is a point of high stress during impact, and can throw loft's lies out of whack after a while, especially if you hit of mats, play on hard ground, or have higher swing speeds.

[Phillip Alexander]

The status of golf in Japan dictates that the price will be higher there. I'm sure there are plenty of Publinksers using Mizunos in the States.

The market in Japan is driven by status, the market in the States by price.

I bought my MP11s in San Francisco and think they are great, even if the man swinging them most of the time isn't.

I would like to think the Japanese product is completely made in Japan, but having received the information from this thread this is not the case.

[Henry]

Great discussions and very interesting observations. This may be slightly off the topic, but I guess for me, it comes to down to the quality of the product. I know if the product was designed in Japan, chances are it superior product. For example, my friend just bought a Toyota Camry. Designed in Japan but made in the USA. What I find facinating is the Japan golf market in general. Why is it so different? Why does it appear to have such a variety of clubs and why do manufacturers believe these clubs would not make it if distributed in the U.S? Who decides these issues? I know there would be a U.S. market out there for Mizuno mp 27s or Tourstage products if marketed correctly. Am I wrong?

[karjar]

I know that my game will not improve tremedously because I just bought new irons, wedges, and putters. I find it interesting that the fact that my irons say made in Japan on them is a good thing. Back in the 70's (yeah I am getting up there) made in Japan was thought to be not so good.

I would say logically that my game is not worthy of the clubs I bought, but I enjoy it, can barely afford it, and I know I like having something more unique. Quality wise, though golf does not start here for another couple of months, the feel and look are worth the money based on chipping and pitching downstairs.

So once again, emotions can rule over logic anyways :tsg_smilie_rolleyes:

[ramizuno13]

Great discussions and very interesting observations. This may be slightly off the topic, but I guess for me, it comes to down to the quality of the product. I know if the product was designed in Japan, chances are it superior product. For example, my friend just bought a Toyota Camry. Designed in Japan but made in the USA. What I find facinating is the Japan golf market in general. Why is it so different? Why does it appear to have such a variety of clubs and why do manufacturers believe these clubs would not make it if distributed in the U.S? Who decides these issues? I know there would be a U.S. market out there for Mizuno mp 27s or Tourstage products if marketed correctly. Am I wrong?

I hear you. As far as who decides what comes to the US. Mizuno Japan and Mizuno USA are two different companys. Miz US decides what comes here, regardless of what's being offered in Japan. I also think the MP27's would have been a hit in the US.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Big Mack