TSG's THE CONTENDER!

[+TourSpecGolfer]

ZR-600 - Type J - R7 Forged

R7 Forged - Type J - ZR-600

R7 Forged on Top, Type J in the center, ZR-600 on bottom

I am going to put the same shaft, length, lie, loft, grip and swing weight on each set and see which i like best their are factors that have me leaning in all directions. I havent tried the ZR-600 yet but the sole looks so easy to hit. The R7 forged is gone gone gone in Japan and TSG has the last remaining sets available, some people are saying its miura forged. The Type J has given me no reason to switch, they perform and feel better than anything i have hit to date but my nature as ho is to test test test. Anyway this is no official shoot out or anything its just me giving my honest opinion on what set i liked best and why. The winner of course will make it into my bag.

[plus1]

cant wait to hear your thoughts! Even though i have the epons and think they are an awesome stick, i have to say that the srixon look the easiest to hit and for me are the most appealing and with the r7s taking the gold for asthetics.

[Phillip Alexander]

:tsg_smilie_confused: Would it be fair to say, new product release is accelerating in the golf industry and in particular in Japan??

[pucci]

all lovely, just wish the toplines were smaller :(

[MGB]

As a former blade user, I can relate to the comment about the toplines. But you know what? I just don't see them when I'm playing. The new player's cavity backs are so good, it won't matter.

Those clubs look awesome, Chris. Looking forward to the outcome.

[plus1]

The new player's cavity backs are so good, it won't matter.

This is so true MGB, the likes of the above players cavities IMO have every benefit of a forged blade - they are unbelievably solid and provide the sensation that of purity when struck. They are extremely workable, unlike the older players cavities that may not have been, and they offer much more forgiveness which NO MATTER how good a player you are - will come in useful at some point!

The toplines on these are slightly thicker than most blades, but believe me they are in no way chunky / blocky / Big!

[pucci]

suppose, but I was told the original nc1s had a small topline and I found it like a brick :( , compared to the xblade 2 any hows - not that I would not consider any of the above, but think my next set will eitehr be tm mb tps or j33b....

[plus1]

suppose, but I was told the original nc1s had a small topline and I found it like a brick :( , compared to the xblade 2 any hows - not that I would not consider any of the above, but think my next set will eitehr be tm mb tps or j33b....

Who told you that the nc1s have thin toplines??? lol

Of you read through all of the reviews and posts on the NC1s you will clearly see that their hape characteristics have a block chunky topline and square toe! As i remember when i was pulling the trigger on mine this was one os the appealing aspects!

Anyhow, the Epon Type J certainly have NO WHERE NEAR as thick a topline as the nc1 and when looking at the srixon look similar........

I can testify also that the R7 forged Japan only feel and perform in a different league to the new tm edition of the mbs. but each to their own

[Blader-X]

I can agree with pucci about toplines. One reason why I like my irons so much.

However, I do pay particular attention to these newer cb's as at some point in my life I may have to consider these clubs. Right now, nothing looks better to me than blades. I just cannot make the switch at this point. Besides, I hit my clubs just fine. I don't compete anymore. I wish very much I was still competing, but I'm just too busy with kids.

I do, however, really like looking at all these new cb's coming out. Thin out the topline so it resembles what I'm accostomed to with a blade, and maybe I'd give 'em a go.

Looking foward to the write up Chris!

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Gauge NC-1 is a 5mm top line which is on the bigger side yet not large as stated in most of its reviews on the site. The R7 forged, ZR600, and Type J are in my guess 4mm a blade is about 3.5 ( just guessing I haven't measured them yet )

I strongly feel that the blade is obsolete, I mean why use a club with a higher CG, which is closer to the heel, from a design standpoint it makes no sense. People can argue that blades feel more pure at impact. On U.S domestic side that may be accurate but the Type J and Kyoei forged irons are more pure in CB form in my opinion. Also if we get real here even plus 2,3,4, handicaps benefit more from a CB than a blade.

So what you see is new model blades with a shorter hosel in attempt to push the CG closer to the toe and lower so they are easier to hit. It helps but logically MBs are for a select few not the many who think they benefit their game.

I didn't always feel this way but after a long conversation with Tom Wishon it makes a ton of sense.

[TheHawkmc]

Gauge NC-1 is a 5mm top line which is on the bigger side yet not large as stated in most of its reviews on the site. The R7 forged, ZR600, and Type J are in my guess 4mm a blade is about 3.5 ( just guessing I haven't measured them yet )

I strongly feel that the blade is obsolete, I mean why use a club with a higher CG, which is closer to the heel, from a design standpoint it makes no sense. People can argue that blades feel more pure at impact. On U.S domestic side that may be accurate but the Type J and Kyoei forged irons are more pure in CB form in my opinion. Also if we get real here even plus 2,3,4, handicaps benefit more from a CB than a blade.

So what you see is new model blades with a shorter hosel in attempt to push the CG closer to the toe and lower so they are easier to hit. It helps but logically MBs are for a select few not the many who think they benefit their game.

I didn't always feel this way but after a long conversation with Tom Wishon it makes a ton of sense.

I hear what you're saying Chris and I don't disagree in principle. But, I tried for years to make CB's work, trying many different US forged (and even cast) models. Never could find consistency with CB's!

The problem was two fold. First, I grew up with razor thin topline, zero offset blades and could never adjust to the look of all these cavity backs. Anything offset I'd hit fat and thicker toplines didn't instill confidence from a tighter tie. Second, my trajectory and distance control were never consistent trying to work the ball and hitting a variety of shots. I put the Bridgestone J33B's in the bag a year ago and dropped four shots off my handicap (to +2). The longer hosel, no-offset, thin topline clubs allowed me to hit a variety of golf shots and control the spin. I've become a much more consistent iron player.

I'd really would like to go back to a well engineered, soft, forged cavity back, just need to find the right model. At least that's my goal for next season!! I'm considering Epon Type-J's, Beres TW901, Tourstage X-Blade CB2, Miura CB-1006 and custom Scratch's. TSG is a great site to read feedback and narrow the choices.

Edited September 17, 2006 by TheHawkmc

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I used to feel the same way until tom set me straight. Read the book " The search for the perfect golf club "

and Maltby MPF "Irons" and learn from a pure physics and design stand point they are obsolete when compared to the CB.

If pga pros can deal with CB's it i'm sure many of us can learn to as well. the difference in top line vs a true players CB is .5mm which is tiny. A lot of this often has to do more with the head than anything else. A look into the future would be Japanese Neo blades, larger heavier sole with a shorter hosel and a tad more bulk out near the toe.

just my 2 cents and in the end we all play what we like best not what performs best.

Another thing i would also like to note that the use of the majority of aftermarket driver shafts are useless for those who don't hold their wrist cock long enough to reap the benifits of a full kick.

[MGB]

Just want to share a story on the playing blades vs plaver's cbs. One of my buddies plays to a scratch. This guy is an animal! He swore by his MP-32s (I know some of you don't consider this a blade, but humor me) until I got him to try my MP-60s. He went out and shot his next 6 rounds in the 60s! Now I can't get my 60s back!

I agree completely with plus1, we can all use forgiveness and positive results will change your mind about how a club looks very quickly indeed.

[1thunder]

How many sets of the R7 made????

[Alcap26]

Chris I understand the thinking that the blade is obselete but I hit the ball really high and I hit it on the heel side of the sweetspot so having a high cog and heel sided sweetspot works for me of course I am using a basically hybrid blade in the mp32. The only other set I could see in my bag right now are the ones sitting in the basement and they are my TM 300. Those ZR600 and R7 forged irons sure do like nice though. If I could find a forgiving club with the sweet spot slightly towards the heel that I did not hit moon balls with then I would use one but I have not found one yet.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Alcap26

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Chris I understand the thinking that the blade is obselete but I hit the ball really high and I hit it on the heel side of the sweetspot so having a high cog and heel sided sweetspot works for me of course I am using a basically hybrid blade in the mp32. The only other set I could see in my bag right now are the ones sitting in the basement and they are my TM 300. Those ZR600 and R7 forged irons sure do like nice though. If I could find a forgiving club with the sweet spot slightly towards the heel that I did not hit moon balls with then I would use one but I have not found one yet.

I understand what people are saying after my comment. first and foremost the most important thing about selecting irons are how they look to you personally. I guess the trick would be for a blade player to learn to adjust to the look of a CB.

In regards to the ball flight, its more an issue of shaft and fitting than the CG. The CG will affect forgivness mroe than launch angle. There are pros that launch the ball higher than anyone yet can play forgiving cavity backs. It is because they are fit properly. Blades isnt the only way to bring the flight down.

[KSMIFFIS]

Are the r7's available left handed?

[TheHawkmc]

I understand what people are saying after my comment. first and foremost the most important thing about selecting irons are how they look to you personally. I guess the trick would be for a blade player to learn to adjust to the look of a CB.

In regards to the ball flight, its more an issue of shaft and fitting than the CG. The CG will affect forgivness mroe than launch angle. There are pros that launch the ball higher than anyone yet can play forgiving cavity backs. It is because they are fit properly. Blades isnt the only way to bring the flight down.

...And that is why I will be working with you, Chris, to select a set of CB's next winter. Current contenders are Epon Type-J's, Beres TW901, Tourstage X-Blade CB2, Miura CB-1006 and whatever else is released in the next few months. Still uncertain about shaft options (clubhead speed is high), but guys Chris knows his stuff regarding shaft/clubhead fit.

[sfgolfer]

The other thing to keep in mind is that many of today’s blades are not really “blades” like many of us remember them. My days of being single digit ended when I had kids, but I can still hammer certain modern blade designs from Miura and Scratch.

Maybe the ultimate for our (probably shrinking) part of the market that is addicted to blades are the “blades” that are really CB technologies constructed to look, perform, and feel like blades. Two sets I have here - the M675 w/tungsten inserts and hollow cavities in the long irons and RAC MB TP with the RAC “bird” and progressive weighting - are IMO two examples toward that end. Certainly, player CB designs are going to be more forgiving on the margin, but I can tell you these are NOT my Titleist 670s.

If you choose a set of used MP-14s over the Type J, you've got some serious game (and some serious balls)!

[teb92]

I hear what you're saying Chris and I don't disagree in principle. But, I tried for years to make CB's work, trying many different US forged (and even cast) models. Never could find consistency with CB's!

The problem was two fold. First, I grew up with razor thin topline, zero offset blades and could never adjust to the look of all these cavity backs. Anything offset I'd hit fat and thicker toplines didn't instill confidence from a tighter tie. Second, my trajectory and distance control were never consistent trying to work the ball and hitting a variety of shots. I put the Bridgestone J33B's in the bag a year ago and dropped four shots off my handicap (to +2). The longer hosel, no-offset, thin topline clubs allowed me to hit a variety of golf shots and control the spin. I've become a much more consistent iron player.

I'd really would like to go back to a well engineered, soft, forged cavity back, just need to find the right model. At least that's my goal for next season!! I'm considering Epon Type-J's, Beres TW901, Tourstage X-Blade CB2, Miura CB-1006 and custom Scratch's. TSG is a great site to read feedback and narrow the choices.

Played MP-11's until I wore a hole in the face, tried CB's...hated all of them. I could not get over the "chunky" top line. Played 681's for a while....not too bad. Ruptured a disc in my back and couldn't play for 2.5 years and I felt that I had to change to the CB....2005 was terrible for the scoring average. I decided of course that it was the "bow and not the archer" and switched back to my beloved Mizuno's (MP-37's) and got closer to my pre-injury HCP...Great! Then I read Tom Wishon's book that Chris referenced and it made total sense. That eventually led me to the MIURA CB-1005....AWESOME!!. Granted I am experimenting with the shaft, to lower ball flight, but that is defenitely not the club's fault. The 1005's are IMHO just as good looking at address, if not better than any blade I have seen. I don't have any experience with the 1006's, but I would assume they are real similar.

By the way if anybody has any recommendations for shaft's that would lower ball flight, let me know please.

[Blader-X]

Great insight from all. One reason why I like this site so much is the honest input from many of you. I realize myself the "blade" is a thing of the past but I just love the look of them so much. In the next few years I know I'm going to have to go the way of the new technology. I'm just hoping that by then, someone makes a cb with a topline like my X-blades. It kind of steps so it looks even thinner.

I'm reading all these cb reviews and viewing the pics with great interest so when the time comes I can make the best decsion.

Just keep posting boys and girls!!

[TheHawkmc]

I was lucky enough to spend time with quite a few tour pros in the mid-late 70's. Knudson, Trevino and Sanders all were master shotmakers. One of the drills I learned from watching them was to be able to hit 3-5 different clubs from every distance between 100-150 yards. I learned to hit low fading, spinning 120yd 7-irons and high, soft draws with 120 yd wedges.

My point is that the blades of that era (plus balata balls) made that level of shotmaking possible. There may never be another shotmaker at Trevino's level again IMO!!

With today's equipment and balls, I'm still looking for the combination that let's me feel like that 1970's shotmaker. Any suggestions from Chris or readers at TSG is very much appreciated. I want my next purchase to be more than a needle in the haystack!!

[+TourSpecGolfer]

I spoke with Paul Bessler today who one of the top club makers, fitters, etc.. He agreed with what the Maltby book states but also thinks that todays newer blades are a turn in the proper direction. More so with added bulk around the toe area than the shorter hosel. Perhaps the MPF factor is a tad outdated? Whatever the case is I have been doing my best to learn everything i can about the physics and design of golf clubs modern and classic. All directions seem to be pointing to CB's as the better design for every player group.

Its all mental guys serious, if you cant hit CB's and you can only hit blades you have a few issues that need to be resolved. A good example is the honeymoon period its pretty hard to explain with scientific facts but for some reason they say the first 40 shots are better than the rest. Its those kind of things that make golf the most interesting sport there is IMO.

Blades actually helped me also, I found that the smaller head made me focus and concentrate more which in the end improved my ball striking with my CB's.

[jat]

Those Srixons look great. Thanks for the pics. Can't wait for the review.

[NaisuShotto]

So what you see is new model blades with a shorter hosel in attempt to push the CG closer to the toe and lower so they are easier to hit.

i was wondering what the whole short hosel thing was - seen this on a few set of irons recently.