+TourSpecGolfer Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Here are a few what ifs for you.... What if I told you Miura has a subsidiary in Taiwan that does forgings? What if I told you Mizuno uses Dynamix in China to forge clubs and most of their staff doesn't know about it? What if I told you that Fujikura has a manufacture in San Diego and Mexico? What if I told you that Drivers are maxed out in distance and forgiveness while only the Gimmicks change? These are a few of the rumors I have heard in the last month from Industry insiders. I have to think some of them could be true, due to U.S price points. U.S.A 299.00 / Driver 199.00 / FW 599.00 / Irons 99.00 / Wedges 149.00-250.00 / Putter Japan 580-799.00 / Driver 250-500.00 / FW 1000-2000 / Irons 150-225 / Wedges 250-580 / Putter Does the difference improve your score? In most cases no, but if you want superior design and technology there is no doubt its easier to find in the Japanese golf Industry. OEMs are removing the adjustable weighting designs in their woods to increase profit margins due to the average American consumers spending habits. I got to see this first hand as the New G-Field woods were redesigned for the U.S market. They removed the weight screws in exchange for internal weighting and different face manufacturing techniques. Same deal with Srixon, Cleveland, Nike etc... I now understand how difficult it is to design and build the best equipment for the U.S market, you simply have to sacrifice all you can until your product meets the price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus1 Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 This is one of the MAIN reasons why i buy from JAPAN........top quality, cutting edge technology and super performance. Its a shame that the US market is 100% price driven, as the clubs would be sooo much more advanced if it wasnt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the1stunner Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Amen to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicksy Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I suppose for me the response to all these what if's? would be what tolerances are on the different spec's. If they are all made to the identical spec I wouldn't really care. Let's be honest, how many of us with handicaps actually really notice the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe295 Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I love rumors, they just add flavor, spice, pizzazz, a certain hint of naughtiness that is missing from dull old factual material. I could believe some of those while others like the Fujikura in San Diego are hard to swallow from a bean counters perspective (of course in saying that I realize fully that's the one that's true). The last one about just the gimmicks changing has the ring of truth, even Frank Thomas has said almost that much in his musings and ramblings in print and on the tube. As for price points, it has ever been thus with free markets. The final product had better be significantly different if your getting significantly different dollars in different markets especially in this day and age of a more global economy. I think the operative number is what very few people outside of those who can muddle thru an annual report pay attention to and that's profit margin. I would imagine, and this is only assumption on my part, the gross margin percentage on each type of club sold in the US is essentially the same as each type of club sold in Japan. Thus the need to "dumb down" stuff for the US market to hit your percent GM. Economics hurts my head at the best of times so I'll stop now because it's too early to think but in a simplistic way it sort of makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCsub Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I don't think it is any big surprise that drivers are "maxed" out. .83 COR is .83. All of the legal clubs are as close to that # as they can be. OEMs can fool around w/ size, cosmetics, shape, weighting, etc., and perhaps offer more forgiveness, but the length and accuracy of today's clubs is as good as it gets. In fact, as I try to get better, I rather not keep getting clubs that are more forgiving. I know when I am swinging well I can hit every club in my bag well, and when I mis**t it is never the clubs fault. All that said, I still like the Japanese products I have purchased much more than the local OEM stuff here in the states. I find the overall quality in finish and assembly to be much better. Also, I LOVE playing brands that nobody (all you nuts reading this excluded :tsg_smiley_yes: ) has heard of. Would my score be the same w/ an all OEM setup from Golfsmith? Probably, but I sure enjoy playing my bag much more than anything they could give me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 What if I told you Bridgestone Irons havent been forged by Endo for a long while? This ones not a rumor, about a 6-12 months before the Japan launch of the first X-blade Cb they switched from Endo to a chinese based company to meet the U.S price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky3 Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I guess that's why (some) OEM's have concentrated on the ball, they can improve the performance whereas clubs have been 'maxed' out. I guess it will take only so long for the General public to cotton on to the fact that their latest 'must have' wonderclub actually performs no better than it's predecessor.....although the faction that must play what their respective hero plays will still continue to purchase. None of these rumours will change my belief that Japanese products look/feel and are better made and therefore superior (to me) than US OEM offerings. Where it was forged is irrelavant if it feels and plays well, I guess it does matter to some though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfgolfer Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 What, do we believe that Katsuhiro Miura is going to totally abandon his principles when he moves to Taiwan? A look at my bag shows I’m a big proponent of all kinds of Japanese-made equipment, but let’s not get too carried away. There are many reasons golf equipment is more expensive in Japan than it is in the U.S.. Technology and pricing realities are influenced by a host of external factors, such as culture and the fact that golf is much, much, much more widely played in the US than it is in Japan. Not to state the obvious, but let's look at a market's pricing with some context. What would happen to JDM prices if there were suddenly TWICE as many golfers and nearly 7X as many courses in Japan (the rough coefficients needed to compare play in Japan to that in the US)? IMO, there is nothing like elite Japanese forgings. By the same token, the French make the world's best wines. However, like wine, I’m not prepared to say that ALL Japanese forgings are elite or that we should get our knickers in a twist if a great product (i.e., a Fuji shaft) isn’t made in Japan. The fact that the Axiv V Spec is made in Bangladesh ain’t going to stop me from trying it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thehardway Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I now understand how difficult it is to design and build the best equipment for the U.S market, you simply have to sacrifice all you can until your product meets the price point.[/b] The average golfer seeks competence, not excellence, and buys accordingly. Statistically, golf handicaps and wealth are displayed as a power curve which looks - from a height perspective - like a Driver, a 3 iron and a million golf balls (finacial approximation, Bill Gates, Tiger Woods and the rest of us). When OEMs market to the golf balls, value is paramount because their target audience plays 15 times a year, shoots 96, and would derive more benefit from a ball retriever than the latest driver. You can't market the best ANYTHING to golf balls - if you could everyone except Warren Buffet would be driving a Rolls Royce (he drives a Lincoln). If OEMs are trying to meet price points it means they are either inclined or being forced to expand their market. Good luck. Beyond high prices, Japanese marketing in America suffers from lack of advertising and tour exposure. Minimal exposure and a casual market not only discourage excellence, they also discourage sales; even among well-heeled enthusiasts it's difficult to spend $1,500 on irons that a buyer hopes will perform better than similar sets, none of which are available to try. Miura might be better served putting some of its savings from outsourcing into demo days... certainly it's customers would. For the few whose games and wallet warrant it, there are spectacular choices; but I'll hold off on positive predictions for Japanese OEMs until I see a Gauge Design infomercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sly_sam Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Yeah, I've defiantely noticed that, although they have all these "advancemests", the ball still seems to go the same distance. The market for technology is really coming to a stand-still in that sense. They're making the clubs more stable and forgiving on mis-hits but they aren't going any farther. They're messing around with balls but that's slowing down too it seems, they're only really making the long balls feel a bit softer (Nike's new One Platinum). Maybe it's time I started using more import stuff. It seems like with import it's more about the clubs preformance and craftsmanship and less about trying to sell a "new innovation" every six months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HipCheck Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) Well, if I were to believe all rumors, then I by now I would believe: Nike has bought Callaway 14 times TM Tour drivers are made from a super-secret metal in a super-secret factory of super-human welders An XXXX shaft is best for my 100mph swing Phil Mickelson is The Devil in saddle shoes If I spend $2800 on a set of clubs, I will shoot 6-under Gauge US putters fall apart if it's too windy According to an email I received, I am in line to inherit a large sum of money by helping out Mrs. Sese-seko, widow of the late President of Zaire :tsg_smilie_wink: Edited March 10, 2006 by HipCheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sly_sam Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 [*]Phil Mickelson is The Devil in saddle shoes Anyone could beleive that one. Just look at his smile, he thinks he's looking all happy, but that's the most evil, demonic looking smile I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thehardway Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Anyone could beleive that one. Just look at his smile, he thinks he's looking all happy, but that's the most evil, demonic looking smile I've seen. That's because Phil's irons, unlike Muria's, were forged in Mount Doom and quenched in the Mines of Moria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe295 Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 That's because Phil's irons, unlike Muria's, were forged in Mount Doom and quenched in the Mines of Moria. I just knew his caddy looked familiar! my precious :tsg_smilie_wink: Market forces are always interesting to watch at work. Any of you old enough to remember when anything made in Japan was cheap junk? Now they make better stuff than even those paragons of engineering knowhow the Germans and, speaking of rumors may even be involved in purchasing Generous Motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 IIRC Fuji has always been making the Vista pro outside of Japan. Mexico seems right. Taiwan-Miura seems ok to me if he can keep quality. Same with Mizuno. For me it has never been about where but about how. It just so happens that growing up playing Honma for the longest time the quality of Honma just reflected the perfectionist aspect of the the Japanese culture. It doesn't matter where they make the club as long as that principle stays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the1stunner Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Well, if I were to believe all rumors, then I by now I would believe:[*]An XXXX shaft is best for my 100mph swing [*]If I spend $2800 on a set of clubs, I will shoot 6-under Crap thats why I can't get it to 6 under I only spent $2640 on my bag & I need to get the Axiv 7598H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sly_sam Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Crap thats why I can't get it to 6 under I only spent $2640 on my bag & I need to get the Axiv 7598H. Yeah I know that you mean, I don't think I've spent enough on my bag yet, I should be shooting 59 everytime if it all adds up to close to $3000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I do not have an MBA and probably need one to understand price points. I just simply do not understand how and why these U.S. manufactures believe the U.S. market will not bear a higher price for clubs if they have advanced technology similiar to the Japan market or even why Japan manufacturers believe it could not market its Japan only clubs in the U.S. with the higher pricing. While some have told me there is only a small number of people who would buy this stuff (like TSG's) making it unfeasable, I do not believe that. There are ways to market products to a small minority of people making it worthwile. It happens all the time. Why no manufacture understands this is beyond me!! Sorry for the rant but I find this to be a very interesting topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt411 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 (edited) I want to preface this by saying I play custom mizuno's and the craftmanship is outstanding, but.... what superior technology are you guys referring too?? Please tell me you're not talking about turbo rubber which makes me laugh every time I hear it. Is there really that much of a technological difference in what's being sold in Japan as opposed to here in the US or is it just the difference in what we are willing to pay. Is the r7 XR really $400 more technologically advanced than the us retail r7 425? If it was, don't you think more pga guys would be playing these drivers?? You see tour guys all the time playing drivers from companies that they are not under contract with the "wrong" headcover to cover it up, but rarely do you see that headcover come off and some exotic japanese driver come out. Is the composite crown of the x-18 actually better than the all titanium x460 or is the sound it makes something the US market doesn't like? I don't know, but I don't buy that the ridiculous mark up in prices of japan only products is all about better tech and better tolerances. I think it more about the perception of better tech and better tolerances. I would like to see some iron byron test results of japanese vs. US clubs to see how the results turn out. Maybe I'm wrong. I played a GD balde for quite a while and it is a beautiful putter that puts a great roll on the ball. Made in china. Does that mean it is a piece of $hit because it wasn't made in japan?? No, it is made by a great company that makes a great product. Anyways i'm just rambling now, try not to flame too much. Edited March 16, 2006 by matt411 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniperjoe Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I want to preface this by saying I play custom mizuno's and the craftmanship is outstanding, but.... what superior technology are you guys referring too?? Please tell me you're not talking about turbo rubber which makes me laugh every time I hear it. Is there really that much of a technological difference in what's being sold in Japan as opposed to here in the US or is it just the difference in what we are willing to pay. Is the r7 XR really 400 more technologically advanced than the us retail r7 425? If it was, don't you think more pga guys would be playing these drivers?? You see tour guys all the time playing drivers from companies that they are not under contract with the "wrong" headcover to cover it up, but rarely do you see that headcover come off and some exotic japanese driver come out. Is the composite crown of the x-18 actually better than the all titanium x460 or is the sound it makes something the US market doesn't like? I don't know, but I don't buy that the ridiculous mark up in prices of japan only products is all about better tech and better tolerances. I think it more about the perception of better tech and better tolerances. I would like to see some iron byron test results of japanese vs. US clubs to see how the results turn out. Maybe I'm wrong. I played a GD balde for quite a while and it is a beautiful putter that puts a great roll on the ball. Made in china. Does that mean it is a piece of $hit because it wasn't made in japan?? No, it is made by a great company that makes a great product. Anyways i'm just rambling now, try not to flame too much. I agree. This is all a bunch a BS! Tour players can have anything they want, either buy purchasing or getting it for free. Where are all of their Japanese drivers and fairway woods, etc......? Japanese clubs look better and sound better (marketing) and all of that, but what's really behind it all? I just played with a guy on Sunday that owned an old ceramic faced driver and he was only 5 to 10 yards behind me all day long! I hit my driver between 280-310. It all boils down to the Indian and not the Arrow people. We are all on this site because we love golf and we are whores! Thats it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 (edited) Matt, you make some interesting points. I recently obtained a set of Tourstage ViQ Forged irons. I personally think they are great clubs and I was willing to pay a lot more money for them compared to buying a U.S. product. I do not anticpate becoming a better golfer but I feel I purchased a superior set of irons. Was it because I paid more? Was it because I have something that no one else at my club has? I really don't know the answers. All I know is I have a feeling I bought a quality set of clubs that I believe will provide me enjoyment for years to come. I want to believe I bought a set of irons having some technological advances not seen on domestic clubs but it may all boil down to marketing. From what I have seen on this site, import clubs appear to have better technology. However, I do not think one can equate better technology with reducing your score. I just want to play with the best set of irons on the market and I beleive import clubs provide this for me. Maybe Chris can shed some more light on this topic. Edited March 16, 2006 by Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thehardway Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I want to preface this by saying I play custom mizuno's and the craftmanship is outstanding, but.... what superior technology are you guys referring too?? Please tell me you're not talking about turbo rubber which makes me laugh every time I hear it. Is there really that much of a technological difference in what's being sold in Japan as opposed to here in the US or is it just the difference in what we are willing to pay. Is the r7 XR really 400 more technologically advanced than the us retail r7 425? If it was, don't you think more pga guys would be playing these drivers?? You see tour guys all the time playing drivers from companies that they are not under contract with the "wrong" headcover to cover it up, but rarely do you see that headcover come off and some exotic japanese driver come out. Is the composite crown of the x-18 actually better than the all titanium x460 or is the sound it makes something the US market doesn't like? I don't know, but I don't buy that the ridiculous mark up in prices of japan only products is all about better tech and better tolerances. I think it more about the perception of better tech and better tolerances. I would like to see some iron byron test results of japanese vs. US clubs to see how the results turn out. Maybe I'm wrong. I played a GD balde for quite a while and it is a beautiful putter that puts a great roll on the ball. Made in china. Does that mean it is a piece of $hit because it wasn't made in japan?? No, it is made by a great company that makes a great product. Anyways i'm just rambling now, try not to flame too much. Perception vs. Performance Prception, in all it's dimenssions, plays a big role in exotic purchases. The pride of ownership and the pleasure of the artistic design can be very satisfying and a reflection of the owners devotion to his game. If performance was the only issue then demo days would be a requirement. For me it's putters. All putters 'work' but I can't know which is best for me until I try them, something that's impossible with limited-run models. But when I come across a damascus steel Tad Moore pototype or a Byron Design S-4, there's a certain sense of pride in putting it in play. Are they worth the extra money? It depends on how many of your senses you wish to engage, and whether an elevated awareness is of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Anyone know where Nike Japan gets their stuff done? My friend had a set of Slingshot Tours from Nike Japan reshafted. Everything was spot on before the reshaft...because there was lead everywhere in the shafts and the heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramizuno13 Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 What, do we believe that Katsuhiro Miura is going to totally abandon his principles when he moves to Taiwan? A look at my bag shows I’m a big proponent of all kinds of Japanese-made equipment, but let’s not get too carried away. There are many reasons golf equipment is more expensive in Japan than it is in the U.S.. Technology and pricing realities are influenced by a host of external factors, such as culture and the fact that golf is much, much, much more widely played in the US than it is in Japan. Not to state the obvious, but let's look at a market's pricing with some context. What would happen to JDM prices if there were suddenly TWICE as many golfers and nearly 7X as many courses in Japan (the rough coefficients needed to compare play in Japan to that in the US)? IMO, there is nothing like elite Japanese forgings. By the same token, the French make the world's best wines. However, like wine, I’m not prepared to say that ALL Japanese forgings are elite or that we should get our knickers in a twist if a great product (i.e., a Fuji shaft) isn’t made in Japan. The fact that the Axiv V Spec is made in Bangladesh ain’t going to stop me from trying it! Best statement, period!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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